Moody's on Regeneration
- Thread starter TomFL
- Start date
You are a funny character
You could not figure out the meaning of world in John 3:16
You can't figure new birth, born again suggests the onset of new life
You can't figure a man's will is not external to himself
You can't figure out a change was instituted at the cross
and you want to call others irrational
Give it up
Lexicons, Systematic theologies, scripture are all against you
and you can't deal with argumentation
Theo1689
Well-known member
<Chuckle>
All you have is personal attacks, because you can't defend your false beliefs.
You can't even exegete ONE single verse of Scripture!
You are really funny
You talk about personal attacks
after I give scripture verse after scripture verse
which you never address
and all you come back with is smack and name calling
Get an introduction to reality you are badly in need of it
as was stated
You could not figure out the meaning of world in John 3:16
You can't figure new birth, born again suggests the onset of new life
You can't figure a man's will is not external to himself
You can't figure out a change was instituted at the cross
and you want to call others irrational ?
Give it up
Theo1689
Well-known member
I admit.
You are an expert at quoting RANDOM Scriptures.
What you are a FAILURE at is actually EXEGETING them, and demonstrating that they support your false claims.
zerinus
Well-known member
I like Bible even better:
Romans 6:
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
You are working too hard! That is called "baptismal regeneration" by the way!
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And you are an expert at missing logical connections and saying I don't see it but never ever rebutting a thing
I will give you a perfect example
I have been arguing regeneration is preceded by faith in the gospel
To that end
I produced verses which note we are begotten through the word of God - thegospel
I defined regeneration from various Calvinist sources showing
Regeneration is the impartation of new life consecrated to God
Regeneration is a spiritual resurrections
Regeneration is God's means to purify the heart
then I demonstration that life, spiritual resurrection, a purified heart all accrue upon faith
And I produced scripture 1Pe 1:18-23 which speaks of being born again through the word in a context where faith is spoken of
I John 3:1-21 tracing Jesus whole conversation with Nicodemus from you must be born again to His question how can this be and Jesus reply
What has been your response other than claiming life was confounded with eternal life;
some hubris for too many posts on regeneration in your opinion
and a few insults thrown in for good measure
It was all logically connected with various parts supporting other parts and the whole
But you see nothing imagining they are random
That is your failure
Sorry there is no water in that passageI like Bible even better:
Romans 6:
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
You are working too hard! That is called "baptismal regeneration" by the way!
As noted previously
There is a baptism into death
A baptism into Christ
Baptism with or into water does not appear
Liking the bible better is fine but you first need to ascertain what you quote supports you
It does not here
zerinus
Well-known member
Twist it as much as you want. The meaning of the words are crystal clear.
zerinus
Well-known member
Nope, the contextual evidence is conclusive, the highlighted words make that clear. You can try something else if you like. I did a search, and discovered that the word baptism (and its various derivatives such as baptize and baptized) occur 82 times in the New Testament. How many of these do you think refer to water baptism, and how many to something else, and on what basis?
Then point out the water
It is never mentioned
Baptism into death and Christ appear but water does not
It is irrelevant that the word appears 82 times
In the bible we have
Baptism into Christ
Into death
With fire
with the Holy ghost
into the one body
along with water
You cannot just assume water
Look at the context
Rom. 6:5–8 —ESV
Ҧ For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.
We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.
For one who has died has been set free from sin.
Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him”
It is spiritual realities being spoken of
zerinus
Well-known member
I stand by what I had said. Baptism in the Bible is a requirement, it is not optional. Even Cornelius, who (unusually) had received the Holy Ghost prior to his baptism, still needed to be baptized. Peter did not say to him, "O great! you have already received the Holy Ghost, therefore you don't need to be baptized!" He said the opposite. He said, "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?" (Acts 10:47) And baptism has a lot of symbolism associated with it. One is that it is a symbol of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Romans 6:3-6; Colossians 2:11-13 are typical proof texts, as generally recognized by most theologians. See here for more quotes. Another symbolism associated with baptism is one of purifying and cleansing (from sin), as shown in Acts 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21. These are generally acknowledged by Christian theologians. I am not inventing all of this stuff. You are the odd one out, not me.
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Context is our friend. You are not under consideration in that passage of scripture whether you are saved or lost. John 1:11 says "He (Jesus) came unto his own, and his own received him not." His own in John 1 and his people in Matt 1 are the same people. It is his kinsmen, Judah and Israel. It is the physical seed of Abraham in these passages. A cursory reading of the text will tell you that.
Do you believe he will be able to get the job done? He is God, you know, the God Man. He says he can do it and that he will do it. Watch what the great apostle Paul said about 28 years later after his own people had rejected him as the person he claimed to be in the same way many of you fellows are rejecting his claims.
Rom 11: I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.
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Using reason and common logic consider who his people are identified as being. Read it. Take your time. Is there any possible way that his people can be considered to be Israel', the seed of Abraham?
On you E) from your list above, does that passage say he shall save "only" his people from their sins? Of course not, but it definitely says he will save his people from their sins. Did it say when he will save his people from their sins? No, it did not say that either, but we know that his prophets says when he will save his people from their sins. Check it out here.
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25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written,
Okay, here it is lest you be ignorant. It is stated plainly but it is stated plainly for the believers of the words of scriptures. I do not think that is you.
There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Two things he says will happen before his people are saved.
1) until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in
2) There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer,
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Reason and logic again please. If the Deliverer is going to come out of Zion, which is defined in other places as being in Jerusalem, then it is a sure bet that he must come to Zion first since we are told he is presently seated at the right hand of God in heaven. He is not in Zion today.
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Here is something you need to see after Jesus ascended to heaven after he rose from the dead. His apostles said he told them this and they are repeating it to Israel only about them only.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you (Israelites) in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
The Spirit given to them is salvation when they recieve him. He was offering to save them at that time. Look at the next sermon to Israel only;
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Acts 3:3 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; 15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. 16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all. 17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers. 18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass (in the future),
that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
All who are left will be saved and those who would not hear and believe will be destroyed, so says the word of God.
24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. 25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
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I am charging that you men do not believe a single word in scripture that is not sifted through the Calvinist system and your doctrines are illogical and unreasonable and untrue and are not taught by the Spirit of Christ. There is still time to repent.
I will end this post with this statement from Jesus Christ, the Son of God, about his earthly ministry;
Matt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
His ministry to the world, he said, will be post resurrection and in the Spirit;
20 And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast: 21 The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus. 22 Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: and again Andrew and Philip tell Jesus. 23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
You can stand on whatever you like
But produce evidence Romans 6 is speaking of water from the passage itself
BTW I deny water baptism is supposed to be a symbol of Christ death burial and resurrection
Scripture never states that
In any case Roman 6 is not talking about any symbol of water baptism
It is talking of a death with Christ though a union with him and a spiritual resurrection to life because of Christ's resurrection
The death is to sin and the resurrection is as noted to a new life
Baptism is symbolic of the washing and cleansing of the outward as regeneration is to the inward. The first thing God did after the first Passover for the newly born nation of Israel is to take them through the baptism in the Red Sea. (see 1 Cor 10) Did that make them holy? No. It was symbolic. The earth itself was baptized at the flood and a new earth was established from the old. So, baptism symbolizes something clean and fresh and new.
The baptism of fire will accomplish the same purpose for Israel. It will purge out the dross of Israel, leaving a pure Israel.
Matt 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
That which I have highlighted represents two different baptisms for the nation of Israel. The Holy Ghost baptism took place in Acts 2 and is when the whole nation was immersed into the Holy ghost. It did not mean the Holy Ghost was immersed in them. Both must take place to accomplish the will of God. The Holy Ghost must be in each one of them and all of them as a whole. God accomplished his part but Israel did not. God's part was providing his presence for them and Israel's part was to receive him into their bodies by faith.
Here is what Jesus prayed in the garden on the eve of his crucifixion. One should read the whole prayer.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Here is what happens when the Spirit of God moves in and cleanses the inside of a man;
Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
If you have a KJV Bible, you will have this;
RE 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
The "world" was baptized by the Spirit in Acts 10, according to the testimony of scripture. Compare these passages;
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42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
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13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
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10 years separated Acts 2 and Acts 10.
In the OT the former rain is Acts 2 and the latter rain is when God saves Israel after the church is gone.
Rain and water is symbolic of God sending the Holy Ghost, the agency of all life.
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Theo1689
Well-known member
You don't seem able to EXPLAIN these imaginary "logical connections".
How can I "miss" what you never EXPLAIN?
Actually you have received so many explanations only an unwillingness to see can account for why you don't
zerinus
Well-known member
You obviously didn't click on the links. Here are the full quotes:
Romans 6:
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Colossians 2:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
The reference to water baptism in both quotes are too obvious to be overlooked; and as far as I know theologians are generally in agreement with that interpretation. Even CARM agrees! Here is a quote:
"Baptism by immersion [in water] is a perfect symbol for this work of Christ with which the Christian is identifying himself. As Christ died and was raised to a new life, so too the Christian, in Christ, is said to have died (Rom. 6:11; Col. 3:3) and has a new life." (Link)
I disagree with most of its other conclusions; but it has got one thing right, that baptism is symbolic of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Baptism is used as symbolic of many things, as the CARM article shows, including a symbol of washing and cleansing from sin:
Acts 22:
16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
1 Peter 3:
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
The bottom line is that Romans 6:3-6; Colossians 2:11-13 have always been recognized to be a reference to water baptism, that is nothing new. What is new is that you are the odd one out who is now denying it.