Moody's on Regeneration

zerinus

Well-known member
That brings us back to the fact that verse does not state you cannot be saved unless baptized
That is exactly what it does say. If it is not saying it about baptism, then it is not saying it about faith neither. You either accept both together, or reject both together. It is not half and half. You don't get to pick the bits you like, and leave out the bits you don't.
Writing in large print does not change that fact
LOL! Must be getting desperate!
And as noted you agreed 80 verses teach salvation/justification through faith alone
I just did a search, and found 82 references in the NT to water baptism. No one in the NT who accepted the gospel was not baptized. Do away with those, and I will believe you.
So if you are trying to add water baptism as a requirement you are contradicting the bible or trying to get it to contradict itself
I think that applies to you rather than to me.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
That is exactly what it does say. If it is not saying it about baptism, then it is not saying it about faith neither. You either accept both together, or reject both together. It is not half and half. You don't get to pick the bits you like, and leave out the bits you don't.

LOL! Must be getting desperate!

I just did a search, and found 82 references in the NT to water baptism. No one in the NT who accepted the gospel was not baptized. Do away with those, and I will believe you.

I think that applies to you rather than to me.
Sorry but you are not making much sense here

Baptism is one thing faith another

If 80 verses show only faith is needed for salvation then you contradict them by adding water baptism as a criteria
 

TomFL

Well-known member

zerinus


Here is the awful penalty of frustrating the doctrine of the grace of God by adding works. One should answer every rhetorical questions that Paul asks in this epistle and if he does not answer correctly he should fear for his soul and repent. I did not write this but my reading ability is higher than the moon.

Ga 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Salvation is Christ living in the body in the person of the Spirit and he does not indwell the body at baptism, he indwells the body at believing in the heart. It is a new birth and all things become new when it happens.

This is truth. Baptism in water adds nothing to the transaction but it does illustrate it.
Indeed
 

JDS

Active member
Mark 16:

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Define creature in the context of the gospel of Mark. Jesus Christ gave this commission to his 12 disciples and 70 prophets who were there that day. A good rule of thumb to understand what he meant is to look to see where they went and to whom. This would be a good indicator to how they to whom the instructions were given interpreted this command. When I look in the Acts of the apostles I see they went only to the Jews for 7 years until they began to get themselves killed for doing it. When they finally began going to gentiles ten years later, the very people who were given this command raised much contention about it.

Read this passage to see if I am telling it right.

Acts 11:1 And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.

2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,

Are you kidding me? These men obviously did not think the creatures Jesus spoke about were gentiles or why would they have contended with Peter for going to preach to them? Reason, logic, and study will yield a great reward and understanding. God had to raise a special preacher up to go to gentiles because these clods could not be trusted to do it. Why did 10 years go by before the creatures had the gospel preached to them if they understood these guys to be the creatures.

Many years later we have this division of ministry explained to us when contention should have beenfar removed from these preachers.

Ga 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles)

9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.

11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


Maybe you need to take another look.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
I just did a search, and found 82 references in the NT to water baptism. No one in the NT who accepted the gospel was not baptized. Do away with those, and I will believe you.

Except That does not make it a requirement for salvation

it is a commanded ordinance as is the lords supper are you going to add that as a requirement for salvation

BTW not one of your references states one cannot be saved without water baptism
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Sorry but you are not making much sense here
I am always willing to try and do better! :)
Baptism is one thing faith another
I didn't say anything different.
If 80 verses show only faith is needed for salvation then you contradict them by adding water baptism as a criteria
I gave you 82 verses. That is 2 more than yours, so I win! :) But on a more serious note, many of those verses you are referring to are nuanced, and can be interpreted more than one way. None of them mean that one no longer needs to keep the commandments of God to be saved. There are as many verses in NT, if not more, that confirm that one still needs to keep God's commandments to be saved.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
I am always willing to try and do better! :)

I didn't say anything different.

I gave you 82 verses. That is 2 more than yours, so I win! :) But on a more serious note, many of those verses you are referring to are nuanced, and can be interpreted more than one way. None of them mean that one no longer needs to keep the commandments of God to be saved. There are as many verses in NT, if not more, that confirm that one still needs to keep God's commandments to be saved.
Sorry but not one of your verses state it is necessary for salvation so you lose
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Except That does not make it a requirement for salvation
I think that the evidence is pretty overwhelming.
it is a commanded ordinance as is the lords supper are you going to add that as a requirement for salvation
Mark 16:16 makes it a requirement for salvation.
BTW not one of your references states one cannot be saved without water baptism
Answer previously given.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
I think that the evidence is pretty overwhelming.

Mark 16:16 makes it a requirement for salvation.

Answer previously given.
What evidence you don't have a single verse which states you cannot be saved without water baptism

On the other hand there are a multiplicity of verses showing faith of itself is sufficient for salvation
 

zerinus

Well-known member
What evidence you don't have a single verse which states you cannot be saved without water baptism

On the other hand there are a multiplicity of verses showing faith of itself is sufficient for salvation
Maybe when I have time I will start a thread quoting all the Bible verses requiring obedience and keeping God’s commandments for salvation.
No its not answered and the fact is

you still do not have a single verse which states one cannot be saved without water bapism
I think I do, and already demonstrated.
 

zerinus

Well-known member

zerinus


Here is the awful penalty of frustrating the doctrine of the grace of God by adding works. One should answer every rhetorical questions that Paul asks in this epistle and if he does not answer correctly he should fear for his soul and repent. I did not write this but my reading ability is higher than the moon.

Ga 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
That quote ignores the context of Galatians, which was written to counter the claims of the Judaisers of the time who insisted that the Gentile converts to Christianity had to be baptized and keep the Law of Moses to be saved.
Salvation is Christ living in the body in the person of the Spirit and he does not indwell the body at baptism, he indwells the body at believing in the heart. It is a new birth and all things become new when it happens.

This is truth. Baptism in water adds nothing to the transaction but it does illustrate it.
That is philosophy, not the gospel.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
No its not answered and the fact is

you still do not have a single verse which states one cannot be saved without water bapism
Mark 16:16! Too bad the forum software does not allow for automatic replies! It could save me a lot of time to set up an automated response to the same question repeated over and over a million times!
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Mark 16:16! Too bad the forum software does not allow for automatic replies! It could save me a lot of time to set up an automated response to the same question repeated over and over a million times!
That verse does not state you cannot be saved without water baptism

Do you have even one that actually states that ?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Mark 16:16! Too bad the forum software does not allow for automatic replies! It could save me a lot of time to set up an automated response to the same question repeated over and over a million times!

Mark 16:16 says that "he that believeth not, shall be damned."

Mark 16:16 does NOT say, "he that is baptized not, shall be damned."

So why are you under the misconception that Mark 16:16 teaches your view?

The thief on the cross was saved, without baptism.

Eph. 2:8-9 says that salvation is by faith, "not by works" (such as baptism).
2 Tim. 1:9 says that salvation is by faith, "not by works" (such as baptism).
Tit. 3:5 says that salvation is by faith, "not by works" (such as baptism).
Rom. 4:4-6 says that salvation is by faith, "not by works" (such as baptism).
Rom. 11:5-6 says that salvation is by faith, "not by works" (such as baptism).
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Mark 16:16 says that "he that believeth not, shall be damned."

Mark 16:16 does NOT say, "he that is baptized not, shall be damned."

So why are you under the misconception that Mark 16:16 teaches your view?

The thief on the cross was saved, without baptism.

Eph. 2:8-9 says that salvation is by faith, "not by works" (such as baptism).
2 Tim. 1:9 says that salvation is by faith, "not by works" (such as baptism).
Tit. 3:5 says that salvation is by faith, "not by works" (such as baptism).
Rom. 4:4-6 says that salvation is by faith, "not by works" (such as baptism).
Rom. 11:5-6 says that salvation is by faith, "not by works" (such as baptism).
I got to agree with Theo
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Define creature in the context of the gospel of Mark.

* * *
"Creature" in that context means mankind of every diversity, ethnicity, nationality, or background etc. imaginable. For the rest of your post, the scriptures you have quoted are misapplied. Cornelius was the first Gentile to be baptized, and after that the gospel was taken to all nations. The Jews initially had not understood that the gospel was intended for all nations, but that is not a reflection of how the commandment was intended to be understood.
 
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Theo1689

Well-known member
Maybe when I have time I will start a thread quoting all the Bible verses requiring obedience and keeping God’s commandments for salvation.

Well, let's see...

Why don't you "start a thread quoting all the Bible verses" with the phrase, "NOT BY WORKS", in the context of salvation? Or do we simply get to IGNORE those, as Mormons such as yourself always do?

Besides, the message of the Bible is not as simplistic as you would like to make it sound. That's why "proof-texting" is not an effective way of showing theology, especially when you don't take into account EVERYTHING that the Bible teaches.

One thing we must remember is that the purpose of the Mosaic Law was NOT to save, but instead to convict us of our sin, and to point to Christ to save us:

Rom. 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Gal. 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,


This is one of the reasons why Christ constantly directed those who wished to be righteous, to the Law and the commandments, so they would learn their inability and come to God begging for mercy. C.S. Lewis describes the situation very well in his two chapters of "faith" in his book, "Mere Christianity"

And of course, the Law is also a great standard for Godly behaviour.
So converted Christians strive to obey the moral aspects of the law, not "to be saved", but because we already ARE saved.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
That verse does not state you cannot be saved without water baptism
I say that it does.
Do you have even one that actually states that ?
In addition to that, there are several verses (previously given) which categorically state that baptism is for the remission of sins, implying that without complying with the requirement, that "remission" would not be given. This, coupled with the fact that there is overwhelming evidence that baptism in the early Church was a requirement, and that all converts without exception were baptized, leaves no room for doubt that it was regarded as an essential gospel requirement by the early church.
 
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