zerinus
Well-known member
Birds of a feather, flock together!
Moody's on Regeneration
- Thread starter TomFL
- Start date
Sethproton
Well-known member
A note to you. The Greek word translated baptism has different meanings depending on context and whether it is used literally of figuratively. When used literally it means to be covered in water, but figuratively it can mean to be identified with or to experience.
It is necessary to see how the context uses the word.
civic
Well-known member
so the baptism of the Spirit is not literal ?
Theo1689
Well-known member
Well, let's see if that's true, shall we?
Matt. 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
According to this, it is Christ's shed blood, not "baptism", that brings "remission of sins".
No mention of "water baptism"... Hmmm...
Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
It is "repentance" that brings "remission of sins".
No mention of "water baptism"... Hmmm...
Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Remission of sins by " believing".
No mention of "water baptism"... Hmmm...
Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Through faith in Christ's blood.
No mention of "water baptism"... Hmmm...
Well, there are a number of problems with this "presentation" of yours.
Let's look at them, shall we?:
1) We based our theology on the BIBLE, not on what "the early Church" allegedly taught.
And the BIBLE teaches that salvation is "NOT by works", such as "baptism".
Eph. 2:8-9, 2 Tim. 1:9, Tit. 3:5, Rom. 4:1-6, Rom. 11:5-6, etc. etc.
This is a tactic Mormons frequently engage in, by IGNORING any passages which don't fit their theology. And another tactic Mormons engage in is to appeal to the ECF's, even though (1) they are not authoritative, (2) Mormons claim their teachings were corrupted in an "apostasy", and (3) they ignore the ECF's when they teach against Mormon doctrines, such as "baptism is necessary for salvation".
2) Just because "all converts without exception were baptized", doesn't make it a "requirement". Most Christians today are baptized. Not because we believe it's "required", but because we are commanded to, and it is a proclamation of Christ that we love to do. It's absolutely amazing to me that Mormons such as yourself always come to Scripture with the attitude of, "What is the LEAST we have to do in order to be saved", and so you ASSUME that if Christians did something, that meant that they thought it a "requirement" for salvation. Sorry, that's not how it works. True Christians (of which Mormons aren't) do things and obey commandments because we WANT to, not because we "have to".
3) You haven't demonstrated that the Early church actually taught "baptism is a requirement", you have only CLAIMED they do. And this is another tactic Mormons engage in, simply making self-serving claims that they never substantiate.
4) If you would bother to actually READ the ECF's, you would find that they did NOT teach that "water baptism was required", and in fact taught the OPPOSITE. Of course, Mormons don't know this, because most Mormons have never read the ECF's. They've simply found others who have sifted through their writings to find self-serving quotes.
Here is what the ECF's and later Christians taught:
“Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognize the greatness of the gifts which were given by him. For from him have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God. From him also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. From him [arose] kings, princes, and rulers of the race of Judah. Nor are his other tribes in small glory, inasmuch as God had promised, ‘Thy seed shall be as the stars of heaven.’ All these, therefore, were highly honored, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works we have have wrought in holiness of heart, but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”
- Clement, First Epistle to the Corinthians, Ch. 32 (AD 99)
“Every mystery which is enacted by our Lord Jesus Christ asks only for faith. The mystery was enacted at that time for our sake and aimed at our resurrection and liberation, should we have faith in the mystery of Christ and in Christ.”
- Marius Victorinus Epistle to the Galatians,1.3.7 (AD 356)
“Let him who boasts boast in the Lord, that Christ has been made by God for us in righteousness, wisdom, justification, redemption. This is perfect and pure boasting in God, when one is not proud on account of his own righteousness but knows that he is indeed unworthy of the true righteousness and is (or has been) justified solely by faith in Christ.”
- Basil of Caesarea, Homilia XX, Homilia De Humilitate (AD 379)
“God has decreed that a person who believes in Christ can be saved without works. By faith alone he receives the forgiveness of sins.”
- Ambrosiaster, on 1 Cor 1:14b (AD 384)
“They are justified freely because they have not done anything nor given anything in return, but by faith alone they have been made holy by the gift of God.”
- Ambrosiaster, on Rom. 3:24 (AD 384)
“The patriarch Abraham himself before receiving circumcision had been declared righteous on the score of faith alone; before circumcision, the text says, Abraham believed God, and credit for it brought him to righteousness.”
- Chrysostom, Homilies on Genesis, 27.7 (AD 407)
“See he calls the faith also a law delighting to keep to the names, and so allay the seeming novelty. But what is the ‘law of faith’? It is, being saved by grace. Here he shows God’s power, in that He has not only saved, but has even justified, and led them to boasting, and this too without needing works, but looking for faith only.”
- Chrysostom, Homilies on the Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Romans, Homily 7, vs. 27 (AD 407)
“For a person who had no works, to be justified by faith, was nothing unlikely. But for a person richly adorned with good deeds, not to be made just from hence, but from faith, this is the thing to cause wonder, and to set the power of faith in a strong light.”
- Chrysostom, Homilies on the Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Romans, Homily 8, Rom. 4:1-2 (AD 407)
“God justifies by faith alone” (“Deus ex sola fide justificat”)
- Jerome, Epestolam Ad Romanos, Caput X, v.3 (AD 420)
“What Paul meant was that no one obtains the gift of justification on the basis of merits derived from works performed beforehand, but they gift of justification comes only from faith.”
- Bede, Cited from the Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture (ed. Gerald Bray), NT, vol. 11, p. 31.(AD 735)
"But in addition that you might believe also this, that sins are given to you individually, this is the testimony, which the Holy Spirit bestows in your heart, saying, Your sins are forgiven by you. For the Apostle thinks thus, that man is gratuitously justified through faith."
- Bernard of Clairvaux , First Sermon on the Annunciation (AD 1153)
“Therefore the hope of justification is not found in them [the moral and ceremonial requirements of the law], but in faith alone.”
- Thomas Aquinas, Expositio in Ep. I ad Timotheum cap. 1, lect. 3 (AD 1274)
Theo1689
Well-known member
"Baptism" is not an English word. It is a transliteration of the Greek, "baptisma", which simply means "immersion".
And just as the English word "immersed" can mean different things, "he immeserved himself in his studies", etc., so too can the Greek term.
Hardly
In any case you still don't have a single verse which states one cannot be saved if not baptized
and that is not the only topic you lack a single verse of support
Then point out where it states it
all I see is
Mark 16:16 —KJV
“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
the words he who is not baptized with water shall be damned are not there
Hogwash
You do not have a single verse which states one cannot be saved without water baptism
Yet there are a multiplicity of verses showing faith of itself is sufficient to save
zerinus
Well-known member
Enough refs was given. Burying your head in the sand not a good idea!
Indeed so don't dso it
You have zero verses stating you cannot be saved without water baptism
and a multiplicity which show salvation upon faith
So you are going to reject a multiplicity of verses for a verse you do not have ?
zerinus
Well-known member
Answer already given:
Matthew 28:
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Mark 16:
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not [and therefore not baptized] shall be damned.
John 3:
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Acts 2:
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
• • •
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Acts 19:
1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Acts 22:
16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Romans 6:
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Ephesians 4:
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Colossians 2:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
1 Peter 3:
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Believe the Word. Repent of your unbelief!
Theo1689
Well-known member
Where do you see the word, "required", or "necessary"?
Where do you see the word, "required", or "necessary"?
Where do you see the term "baptized" anywhere in that verse?
Where do you see the word, "required", or "necessary"?
Where do you see the word, "required", or "necessary"?
Where do you see the word, "required", or "necessary"?
Where do you see the word, "required", or "necessary"?
Where do you see the word, "required", or "necessary"?
Where do you see the word, "required", or "necessary"?
You do realize, I hope, that this verse is DENYING that the "baptism" that saves someone is "water" baptism (ie. "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh", as with water)?
And where does it any say you cannot be saved without water
one - two are commands to be baptized
A couple do not even mention water
A couple assume water baptism remits sin rather than being a symbol of an already purified heart
One admits water baptism is for a good conscience
None say you cannot be saved without water baptism
zerinus
Well-known member
In Mark 16:16 it is explicitly stated, and in the rest it is commanded or unambiguously implied.
Commands must be obeyed, or salvation is not obtained:
Matthew 7:
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
For example, when Peter said:
Acts 2:
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Do you think the the promised blessings would have followed if they had refused to be baptized? Supposed they had said to Peter, "Forget about baptism. The weather is cold, not right for having baptisms. Just give us the remission of sins and gift of the Holy Ghost, and we will be happy." Do you think that would have worked?
The implication is obvious.
Assume?! Since when ...
Not for a good conscience, but to answer a good conscience. The "good conscience" is answered when a remission of sins is obtained. A "good conscience" is one that is freed from the burden of sin, which happens when a legitimate baptism is performed.
In one it is explicitly stated, and in the rest it is unquestionably implied.
It is not questioned whether commands must be obeyed . It is questioned whether water bapotism isnecessary for salvatiojn
Mark 16:16 does not do it as only unbelief disqualifies from salvation
Again the issues is obtaining salvation, Salvation is promised upon faith in many many verses
are you now going to tell me one must obey all the commandments before he is justified or regenerated
Yes assume
You assume for = in order to get
The fact is repentance of itself brings remission of sin
Luke 24:47 —KJV
“And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.”
Acts 3:19 —ESV
“Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out,”
Acts 5:31 —ESV
“God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.”
Acts 10:43 —ESV
“To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.””
water baptism is the symbol of the moral cleanliness brought about by repentance