More Bushman...

[Markk]

I have no idea of your source, the above takes me no where, its highlighted but does not take you to a source... learn how to source correctly, this is a waste of my time..

I have given you this source many times, and if you press the hyper link it takes you here...

Seer Stones

Seer Stones

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

Which reads in part...which states in context, even if gingerly, he was a money digger and used a seer stone to do so, and also used a seer stone for the BoM translation. The church teaches it is apparent that he did this just as it is equally apparent you are struggling with this teaching. It is time you just admit it what the church teaches so we can move on.

... "In Joseph Smith’s day, some individuals claimed that they had a gift to “see,” or receive divine or supernatural messages, through seer stones. These beliefs came from the Bible and from European cultural traditions brought to early America by immigrants. Joseph Smith and his family accepted these beliefs, and Joseph occasionally used stones he located in the ground to help neighbors find missing objects or search for buried treasure.
When Joseph Smith received the golden plates in 1827, he also received a translation instrument with them, “two stones in silver bows” used by “‘seers’ in ancient or former times” (Joseph Smith—History 1:35). This instrument was referred to in the Book of Mormon as the “interpreters.” During the translation of the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith apparently used both of these instruments—the interpreters and his seer stone—interchangeably. They worked in much the same way, and the early Saints sometimes used the term “Urim and Thummim” to refer to the seer stone as well as the interpreters. The Prophet also received several of the revelations found today in the Doctrine and Covenants by means of these instruments of revelation.3 As Joseph became more experienced in spiritual matters, he eventually started receiving revelation without these aids.4... ."

 

[Markk]

Where Markk? I have proven he is nothing but a contradiction of conflict. This same man, David, stated the Book of Mormon was translated in one Month, then Three months and then again in six moths ..... he stated he helped translate, was in the same room and saw the plates, once stated it was by the Urim and Thummim, then the spectacles, then two stone and not one and then is became one stone in a hat.... He stated the Urim and Thummim was never returned not the plates, then he states he saw the plates... whoops on your witness Markk...

Ralf, he is your witness, and the most documented, his witness is printed in the front of the BoM. He was good friends with Oliver who died in David's home, whom both also testified Joseph was a fallen prophet.

My personal belief is that both these men along with the others were Con'd by Joseph. And I also believe the historical evidence is undisputable that Joseph was a money digger and used the stone in his hat in "translating" the book of Mormon.

But this is a good exercise... so far, we know you have lost faith in your prophet in regard to judgement, in that he champion David Whitmer, whom you call a liar. Make sure you state this when and if you go for a TR.

 

[Markk]

After you reply to this... Nelson as reported never claimed this account was the only account as I have shown more then once...

Well, Ralf,

You are using an argument of silence. Nelson quoted Davids's book (100-page pamphlet) "An Address to all Believers in Christ." You are quoting a person no one knows much about and is clearly editing out of context with the excepted history of the church.

 

[Markk]

You have to do the history yourself Markk and so far your sources suck...

My sources are mostly LDS . org, yours is a rather obscure non-official source, edited by an unknown author. The sources I give you are official LDS teachings on the official LDS website.

So far, in part you have stated and/or clearly implied...

1. Elder Nelson can't be trusted in regard to how the BoM was translated.
2. David Whitmer, one of the three witnesses is a liar.
3. LDS . org, as a source...sucks

 

[Richard7]

I have given you this source many times, and if you press the hyper link it takes you here...

Seer Stones

Seer Stones

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

Yep, you finally figured out how to use the URL... much appreciated its been a trial to even begin to go back to your sources, when you don't even say who it is your quoting or making the URL work... been a real problem dude.

Which reads in part...which states in context, even if gingerly, he was a money digger and used a seer stone to do so, and also used a seer stone for the BoM translation. The church teaches it is apparent that he did this just as it is equally apparent you are struggling with this teaching. It is time you just admit it what the church teaches so we can move on.

... "In Joseph Smith’s day, some individuals claimed that they had a gift to “see,” or receive divine or supernatural messages, through seer stones. These beliefs came from the Bible and from European cultural traditions brought to early America by immigrants. Joseph Smith and his family accepted these beliefs, and Joseph occasionally used stones he located in the ground to help neighbors find missing objects or search for buried treasure.
When Joseph Smith received the golden plates in 1827, he also received a translation instrument with them, “two stones in silver bows” used by “‘seers’ in ancient or former times” (Joseph Smith—History 1:35). This instrument was referred to in the Book of Mormon as the “interpreters.” During the translation of the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith apparently used both of these instruments—the interpreters and his seer stone—interchangeably. They worked in much the same way, and the early Saints sometimes used the term “Urim and Thummim” to refer to the seer stone as well as the interpreters. The Prophet also received several of the revelations found today in the Doctrine and Covenants by means of these instruments of revelation.3 As Joseph became more experienced in spiritual matters, he eventually started receiving revelation without these aids.4... ."

The wording is very important here Markk.... both some individuals and apparently does not help your case even though the Church was carefull to use these words in describing the method and means...
1). some individuals claimed ( at least a small amount or number of)
2). Apparently used (it seems)

Do I hear the gnashing of teeth, chuckle.

 

[Richard7]

Well, Ralf,

You are using an argument of silence. Nelson quoted Davids's book (100-page pamphlet) "An Address to all Believers in Christ." You are quoting a person no one knows much about and is clearly editing out of context with the excepted history of the church.

No Markk, I carefully quoted Pres. Nelson when he stated that there are many different accounts.

Different: distinct, separate, individual, discrete, independent.

Pres. Nelson, you nor I were there... so we have to lean on others who gave their own accounts or versions of the means and instruments used... I lean on JS, Oliver Cowdrey (translated 90 percent of the BOM) Jesus Christ and his words and Moroni, not some slick dude like David Whitmere who sold his soul to become a prophet himself.
He was a boaster, liar, enemy and false witness.

 

[Richard7]

My sources are mostly LDS . org, yours is a rather obscure non-official source, edited by an unknown author. The sources I give you are official LDS teachings on the official LDS website.

Except for David Whitmer you are using sources that were not there and have to use information that is sketchy, filled with lies, false and 2nd and 3rd hand accounts...nice try. I have gone back and did the research to show who, when, how these are not reliable sources which you wish not to discuss...

So far, in part you have stated and/or clearly implied...

1. Elder Nelson can't be trusted in regard to how the BoM was translated.
2. David Whitmer, one of the three witnesses is a liar.
3. LDS . org, as a source...sucks

That is not true and you know it Markk, show where I said he was not trusted or apologize for misstating me.
Proven that Whitmer is a liar and you know it.
Never said the source, LDS sucks.
In fact they are not a source of original statement as you very well know... they acknowledge some people say, or apparently... please quit falsely accusing me and do the right think, do your own research or comment on the accounts I have given you...

 

[Markk]

Yep, you finally figured out how to use the URL... much appreciated its been a trial to even begin to go back to your sources, when you don't even say who it is your quoting or making the URL work... been a real problem dude.

It is called a hyper link, there is a function above that looks like a chain…you put the URL in it and then name the hyperlink…which I did. I will just go back and cut and paste the URL if you can’t figure out how to click on a hyperlink.

The wording is very important here Markk.... both some individuals and apparently does not help your case even though the Church was carefull to use these words in describing the method and means...
1). some individuals claimed ( at least a small amount or number of)
2). Apparently used (it seems)

Do I hear the gnashing of teeth, chuckle.

Ralf, like I wrote in the beginning, you are not emotionally ready to engage.

Yes it is apparent, and seem, and as Nelson said…we have insight and we know, he did use a seer stone…in fact the Church puts a picture of him looking in a hat. That is apparently so it seems.

Yes some individuals did claim..his wife, two of the three witnesses, and others via firsthand testimony, such as Mary Whitmer.

Just for your information, this is what a institute manual teaches, to college age students in institute, whom, the church pays institute teachers to teach this to LDS students…

... “Meanwhile, Joseph and Oliver started translating. They worked well together, weeks on end, frequently with Emma in the same room going about her daily work.24 Sometimes Joseph translated by looking through the interpreters and reading in English the characters on the plates.

Often he found a single seer stone to be more convenient. He would put the seer stone in his hat, place his face into the hat to block out the light, and peer at the stone. Light from the stone would shine in the darkness, revealing words that Joseph dictated as Oliver rapidly copied them down.25” … HYPER LINK

Ralf this is a teaching from the church…not me, not Bushman, not the Tanners, not progressives..but the LDS church.

 

[Richard7]

It is called a hyper link, there is a function above that looks like a chain…you put the URL in it and then name the hyperlink…which I did. I will just go back and cut and paste the URL if you can’t figure out how to click on a hyperlink.

Great, except it does not take you to the site, tried many times and mostly you have failed to know how to use it.... anyway keep trying, I think your greeting better. chuckle.

Ralf, like I wrote in the beginning, you are not emotionally ready to engage.

Yep! I have very intense feeling when I see that lies, disinformation and misinformation are being use to create faith crisis. You and your ilk, progressive professors and historians and the New Mormonism does cause me emotional sorrow.

Yes it is apparent, and seem, and as Nelson said…we have insight and we know, he did use a seer stone…in fact the Church puts a picture of him looking in a hat. That is apparently so it seems.

Joseph Fielding Smith said the following:

While the statement has been made by some writers that the Prophet Joseph Smith used a seer stone part of the time in his translating of the record, and information points to the fact that he did have in his possession such a stone, yet there is no authentic statement in the history of the Church which states that the use of such a stone was made in that translation. The information is all hearsay, and personally, I do not believe that this stone was used for this purpose. The reason I give for this conclusion is found in the statement of the Lord to the Brother of Jared as recorded in Ether 3:22–24. These stones, the Urim and Thummim which were given to the Brother of Jared, were preserved for this very purpose of translating the record, both of the Jaredites and the Nephites. Then again the Prophet was impressed by Moroni with the fact that these stones were given for that very purpose. It hardly seems reasonable to suppose that the Prophet would substitute something evidently inferior under these circumstances. It may have been so, but it is so easy for a story of this kind to be circulated due to the fact that the Prophet did possess a seer stone, which he may have used for some other purposes.

Yes some individuals did claim..his wife, two of the three witnesses, and others via firsthand testimony, such as Mary Whitmer.

Some individuals? there you go again, either this is you opinion or its nothing since you didn't source.... Irrelevant since he does not name some people.... maybe you not emotionally prepared to find the truth, after all you quit the Church because of people you trusted that were lying to you. It's your own pride that will keep you wanting to believe and more willing to believe the lies.

Just for your information, this is what a institute manual teaches, to college age students in institute, whom, the church pays institute teachers to teach this to LDS students…

... “Meanwhile, Joseph and Oliver started translating. They worked well together, weeks on end, frequently with Emma in the same room going about her daily work.24 Sometimes Joseph translated by looking through the interpreters and reading in English the characters on the plates.

Often he found a single seer stone to be more convenient. He would put the seer stone in his hat, place his face into the hat to block out the light, and peer at the stone. Light from the stone would shine in the darkness, revealing words that Joseph dictated as Oliver rapidly copied them down.25” … HYPER LINK

Ralf this is a teaching from the church…not me, not Bushman, not the Tanners, not progressives..but the LDS church.

Got to be kidding, this guy is only repeating the lies and revised history and I would bet he is a progressive at the same time. You stated many time that you were going to go deeper and for me to wait, I'm still waiting for first hand accounts good buddy.

 

[Richard7]

More Bushman Markk, still waiting for your further digging into money digging, occult, magic, seer stone, alcoholism, poor lazy farmers and how the Book of Mormon came about.... should keep you very busy dude.

Here are more of Rough Stone Rolling by progressive Bushman and The New Mormonism..



Bushman's view of JS.
1). "exact compliance with prescribed rituals was required" and " magic might have prepared him, JS, to believe in a revelation of gold plates and translation with a stone...

2). The Prophet is a "boy who gazed into stones and saw treasure {that} grew up to become a translator who looked in a stone and saw words.

3). "in addition to rod and stone divining, the Smiths probably believed in the rudimentary astrology found in the ubiquitous almanacs," and " Magical parchments handed down in the Hyrum Smith family may have originally belonged to JS. sr...

4). Oliver Cowdery is accused of having "engaged in treasure seeking and other magical practices in Vermont, and like others in this culture. melded magic with Christianity.

5). By 1828, the Prophet's language was Biblical rather than occult" as it had previously been...

Source, Seer Stone versus Urim and Thummim...


So magic might have prepared him, yet no source from Bushman. What did the magic help with, believe in revelation of gold plates and doing it with a stone.... and you can't see this as the New Mormonism of lies and his fudging by saying "it might have prepared him" wow! and you think this is good journalism and research... nice Markk, your guy is a complete idiot and pop- culture wanna-be. Bushman has his reward and it's strictly worldly and without any caliber of excellence.

Would love for you to produce even one first hand account that he was a stone gazer and could see treasure.. again where is the first hand account Markk.

"Astrology found in the ubiquitous almanacs"... what a joke this guy is guessing and projecting a lie.

So when did JS ever speak in the occult language Bushman claims and now switches over to biblical? what a farce and made up claim.

Cowdery was accused of magical practice and again no source, this is poor journalism or historical research at it worse ever. When do you use the word accused and not mention who...


You got your work for you, wouldn't blame you if you just cut and run... chuckle.

Neither the family or JS ever delved into magic, they just didn't have the time and it was not part of their puritan heritage...

 

[Richard7]

More Bushman Markk, still waiting for your further digging into money digging, occult, magic, seer stone, alcoholism, poor lazy farmers and how the Book of Mormon came about.... should keep you very busy dude.

Here are more of Rough Stone Rolling by progressive Bushman and The New Mormonism..



Bushman's view of JS.
1). "exact compliance with prescribed rituals was required" and " magic might have prepared him, JS, to believe in a revelation of gold plates and translation with a stone...

2). The Prophet is a "boy who gazed into stones and saw treasure {that} grew up to become a translator who looked in a stone and saw words.

3). "in addition to rod and stone divining, the Smiths probably believed in the rudimentary astrology found in the ubiquitous almanacs," and " Magical parchments handed down in the Hyrum Smith family may have originally belonged to JS. sr...

4). Oliver Cowdery is accused of having "engaged in treasure seeking and other magical practices in Vermont, and like others in this culture. melded magic with Christianity.

5). By 1828, the Prophet's language was Biblical rather than occult" as it had previously been...

Source, Seer Stone versus Urim and Thummim...


So magic might have prepared him, yet no source from Bushman. What did the magic help with, believe in revelation of gold plates and doing it with a stone.... and you can't see this as the New Mormonism of lies and his fudging by saying "it might have prepared him" wow! and you think this is good journalism and research... nice Markk, your guy is a complete idiot and pop- culture wanna-be. Bushman has his reward and it's strictly worldly and without any caliber of excellence.

Would love for you to produce even one first hand account that he was a stone gazer and could see treasure.. again where is the first hand account Markk.

"Astrology found in the ubiquitous almanacs"... what a joke this guy is guessing and projecting a lie.

So when did JS ever speak in the occult language Bushman claims and now switches over to biblical? what a farce and made up claim.

Cowdery was accused of magical practice and again no source, this is poor journalism or historical research at it worse ever. When do you use the word accused and not mention who...


You got your work for you, wouldn't blame you if you just cut and run... chuckle.

Neither the family or JS ever delved into magic, they just didn't have the time and it was not part of their puritan heritage...

Any thing on magic, occult, etc... Markk..

 

[Markk]

Yep! I have very intense feeling when I see that lies, disinformation and misinformation are being use to create faith crisis. You and your ilk, progressive professors and historians and the New Mormonism does cause me emotional sorrow.

Ralf, again this has nothing to do with me. If you have noticed, I am quoting your prophets, witnesses of the church, an LDS official sources for the very most part. You are just cutting and pasting snippets out of whatever you can find through a google search without reading or trying to understand the argument.

Again..., my elevator assertion is that the Church teaches officially that Joseph Smith used a seer stone in his hat to translate the BoM, interchangeably with the spectacles. They teach that these two items, meaning one of the single stones, or the spectacles, also known as the interpreters, were called the Urim and Thummim by the early saints. Do you deny this?

What is yours, I have asked several times.

 

[Markk]

Joseph Fielding Smith said the following:

While the statement has been made by some writers that the Prophet Joseph Smith used a seer stone part of the time in his translating of the record, and information points to the fact that he did have in his possession such a stone, yet there is no authentic statement in the history of the Church which states that the use of such a stone was made in that translation. The information is all hearsay, and personally, I do not believe that this stone was used for this purpose. The reason I give for this conclusion is found in the statement of the Lord to the Brother of Jared as recorded in Ether 3:22–24. These stones, the Urim and Thummim which were given to the Brother of Jared, were preserved for this very purpose of translating the record, both of the Jaredites and the Nephites. Then again the Prophet was impressed by Moroni with the fact that these stones were given for that very purpose. It hardly seems reasonable to suppose that the Prophet would substitute something evidently inferior under these circumstances. It may have been so, but it is so easy for a story of this kind to be circulated due to the fact that the Prophet did possess a seer stone, which he may have used for some other purposes.

And? he was wrong. The church for years denied it, which is why you are struggling. Nelson has corrected that lie and is trying to be more truthful with the membership yet has an issue that the grandma's (folks like you) can't deal with a truthful history, and the grandkids (the younger generations) want a truthful history from the church, and do not want to hear it from people like me (non-Mormons). Bushman understands it and makes it clear.

You must note that all evidence points to JFS tearing pages out of the history of the church that did not shed good light on JS first vision. So, he is not a very good witness, or historian, in this regard.

 

[Markk]

Any thing on magic, occult, etc... Markk..

Have patience, we will get there once you understand how the BoM was translated. We are almost there.

 

[Richard7]

Ralf, again this has nothing to do with me. If you have noticed, I am quoting your prophets, witnesses of the church, an LDS official sources for the very most part. You are just cutting and pasting snippets out of whatever you can find through a google search without reading or trying to understand the argument.

Again..., my elevator assertion is that the Church teaches officially that Joseph Smith used a seer stone in his hat to translate the BoM, interchangeably with the spectacles. They teach that these two items, meaning one of the single stones, or the spectacles, also known as the interpreters, were called the Urim and Thummim by the early saints. Do you deny this?

What is yours, I have asked several times.

Joseph Smith was a true Prophet of God, did not dabble in the occult, magic, etc. Was not lazy, loved people and folks loved him... honest, friendly and was never charged or served time for any crime.... true prophet of God .

 

[Markk]

Joseph Smith was a true Prophet of God, did not dabble in the occult, magic, etc. Was not lazy, loved people and folks loved him... honest, friendly and was never charged or served time for any crime.... true prophet of God .

Ralf, you are simple wrong and reverting to a broken-down testimony won't change the truth. The church and your prophet, just as much a prophet as JS according to the church teaches you are wrong about the stone, which you left out of this post. Are you conceding that he translated the BoM with a seer stone in his hat?

 

[Richard7]

Ralf, you are simple wrong and reverting to a broken-down testimony won't change the truth. The church and your prophet, just as much a prophet as JS according to the church teaches you are wrong about the stone, which you left out of this post. Are you conceding that he translated the BoM with a seer stone in his hat?

So you believe that JS would go against God and use a (MAGIC) rock in a hat.... using the occult to translate the Gold Plates... not happening Markk... but of course you don't believe any of it either, so you're only here to interject and promote faith crisis... I get it.

 

[Markk]

So you believe that JS would go against God and use a (MAGIC) rock in a hat.... using the occult to translate the Gold Plates... not happening Markk... but of course you don't believe any of it either, so you're only here to interject and promote faith crisis... I get it.

I believe that the historical record shows the Smiths believed in folk magic and incorporated that into their religious ideologies. Joseph used the stone as a means from God, to translate the BoM.

This is what Joseph Sr. testified in the Purple account...focus and please read it in full context.

Joseph Smith, Sr., was present, and sworn as a witness. He confirmed at great length all that his son had said in his examination. He delineated his characteristics in his youthful days—his vision of the luminous stone in the glass—his visit to Lake Erie in search of the stone—and his wonderful triumphs as a seer. He described very many instances of his finding hidden and stolen goods. He swore that both he and his son were mortified that this wonderful power which God had so miraculously given him should be used only in search of filthy lucre, or its equivalent in earthly treasures, and with a long-faced, “sanctimonious seeming,” he said his constant prayer to his Heavenly Father was to manifest His will concerning this marvelous power. He trusted that the Son of Righteousness would some day illumine the heart of the boy, and enable him to see His will concerning him. These words have ever had a strong impression on my mind. They seemed to contain a prophetic vision of the future history of that mighty delusion of the present century, Mormonism. The “old man eloquent,” with his lank and haggard visage—his form very poorly clad—indicating a wandering vagabond rather than an oracle of future events, has, in view of those events, excited my wonder, if not my admiration.
Ralf Click Here

Joseph Sr. was a universalist, and Lucy, especially after Alvins death leaned towards Methodist ideology. I believe Joseph was somewhere in-between.

Like I wrote before, there is a lot written on early new England Folk magic, and the Smith family and folk magic, but first we need to resolve how the BoM was translated.

Ralf, I am here for a few reasons. One being, I enjoy reading the history of my Mormon roots...whether I like it or not it shaped who I am in many ways. My roots go back to Nauvoo and Kirtland, so I enjoy reading and exploring those roots.

I am also here, to help you see what the church teaches...which is why I try to use mostly church CF.

 

[Richard7]

I believe that the historical record shows the Smiths believed in folk magic and incorporated that into their religious ideologies. Joseph used the stone as a means from God, to translate the BoM.

This is what Joseph Sr. testified in the Purple account...focus and please read it in full context.

Joseph Smith, Sr., was present, and sworn as a witness. He confirmed at great length all that his son had said in his examination. He delineated his characteristics in his youthful days—his vision of the luminous stone in the glass—his visit to Lake Erie in search of the stone—and his wonderful triumphs as a seer. He described very many instances of his finding hidden and stolen goods. He swore that both he and his son were mortified that this wonderful power which God had so miraculously given him should be used only in search of filthy lucre, or its equivalent in earthly treasures, and with a long-faced, “sanctimonious seeming,” he said his constant prayer to his Heavenly Father was to manifest His will concerning this marvelous power. He trusted that the Son of Righteousness would some day illumine the heart of the boy, and enable him to see His will concerning him. These words have ever had a strong impression on my mind. They seemed to contain a prophetic vision of the future history of that mighty delusion of the present century, Mormonism. The “old man eloquent,” with his lank and haggard visage—his form very poorly clad—indicating a wandering vagabond rather than an oracle of future events, has, in view of those events, excited my wonder, if not my admiration.
Ralf Click Here

Good gosh, how many times have I tried to get you to use first hand accouts Markk, you don't get it and show you desperation and most likely your frustration that you have no first hand accounts to bring to the table.

Notice when this was brought to light Markk....

Appendix: Reminiscence of William D. Purple, 28 April 1877 Chuckle, chuckle. ​

We have five records of the 1826 trial. And these were published in eight documents.

1. Apr. 9, 1831 – A W. Benton in Evangelical Magazine and Gospel Advocate
2. Oct. 1835 – Oliver Cowdery in Latter-day Saints Messenger and Advocate
3. 1842 letter from Joel K. Noble (not published until 1977)
4. Record torn from Judge Neely docket book by Miss Emily Pearsall (niece)
   1. Feb. 1873 – Charles Marshall publishes in Frazer’s Magazine (London)
   2. Apr. 1873 – Frazer’s article reprinted in Eclectic Magazine (N.Y.)
   3. 1883 – Tuttle article in New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge
   4. Jan. 1886 – Christian Advocate vol. 2, no. 13 (Salt Lake City, UT)
5. May 3, 1877 – W. D. Purple Chanango Union

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/p...77-state-of-new-york-v-js-a/1#full-transcript

Joseph Sr. was a universalist, and Lucy, especially after Alvins death leaned towards Methodist ideology. I believe Joseph was somewhere in-between.

Immaterial Markk..

Like I wrote before, there is a lot written on early new England Folk magic, and the Smith family and folk magic, but first we need to resolve how the BoM was translated.

Again, nothing here, immaterial again.

Ralf, I am here for a few reasons. One being, I enjoy reading the history of my Mormon roots...whether I like it or not it shaped who I am in many ways. My roots go back to Nauvoo and Kirtland, so I enjoy reading and exploring those roots.

Maybe that will help you to see the light as I'm sure I am doing for you also... hmm

I am also here, to help you see what the church teaches...which is why I try to use mostly church CF.

I love that you're trying so hard, this is good for both of us... in fact it only strengthens my testimony of JS... thx.

 

[Markk]

Good gosh, how many times have I tried to get you to use first hand accouts Markk, you don't get it and show you desperation and most likely your frustration that you have no first hand accounts to bring to the table.

Notice when this was brought to light Markk....

Appendix: Reminiscence of William D. Purple, 28 April 1877 Chuckle, chuckle. ​

We have five records of the 1826 trial. And these were published in eight documents.

1. Apr. 9, 1831 – A W. Benton in Evangelical Magazine and Gospel Advocate
2. Oct. 1835 – Oliver Cowdery in Latter-day Saints Messenger and Advocate
3. 1842 letter from Joel K. Noble (not published until 1977)
4. Record torn from Judge Neely docket book by Miss Emily Pearsall (niece)
   1. Feb. 1873 – Charles Marshall publishes in Frazer’s Magazine (London)
   2. Apr. 1873 – Frazer’s article reprinted in Eclectic Magazine (N.Y.)
   3. 1883 – Tuttle article in New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge
   4. Jan. 1886 – Christian Advocate vol. 2, no. 13 (Salt Lake City, UT)
5. May 3, 1877 – W. D. Purple Chanango Union

Ralf, focus really really hard here, W.D purple was at the trial, which makes him a firsthand witness. You chuckle at you own ignorance, I guess. Does it mean he is 100% accurate...no, that is why historians and apologists alike, test all witnesses to any specific account, with all data available, whether a firsthand witness or not.

Immaterial Markk..

How so, it is very relevant in regard to you misguided assertion. Which we will hopefully get into further as soon as you can, whether you agree with it or not, what the church teaches on how the BoM was translated.

Again, nothing here, immaterial again.

LOL, why? Folk magic was a big part of the culture and times, way before Mormonism was invented. The church even teaches the Smith family was Intune with folk magic, which of course I have given you links to. I plan to get into this as soon as we get past the current hurdle.

Maybe that will help you to see the light as I'm sure I am doing for you also... hmm

It helps me see the truth, and more importantly it shows me I can search for the truth without biases and blind allegiances.

I love that you're trying so hard, this is good for both of us... in fact it only strengthens my testimony of JS... thx.

No, it doesn't, that is just false, and you know it. You are in a faith crisis, and you have family members doubting. You are not alone Ralf. The majority of what you might call TBM's are in the same boat. You are only fooling yourself saying otherwise.