More Bushman...

Ralf, focus really really hard here, W.D purple was at the trial, which makes him a firsthand witness. You chuckle at you own ignorance, I guess. Does it mean he is 100% accurate...no, that is why historians and apologists alike, test all witnesses to any specific account, with all data available, whether a firsthand witness or not.

Reminiscence of William D. Purple, 28 April 1877 Published JS trial notes as “Joseph Smith, the Originator of Mormonism,” 1877​



How so, it is very relevant in regard to you misguided assertion. Which we will hopefully get into further as soon as you can, whether you agree with it or not, what the church teaches on how the BoM was translated.
Joseph Sr. was a universalist, and Lucy, especially after Alvins death leaned towards Methodist ideology. I believe Joseph was somewhere in-between.

Yes, even after he had the first vision, he went to church with the family, I believe Methodist.... he never joined even thought the critics said he did.
He filled out a roll call passed around the class...




LOL, why? Folk magic was a big part of the culture and times, way before Mormonism was invented. The church even teaches the Smith family was Intune with folk magic, which of course I have given you links to. I plan to get into this as soon as we get past the current hurdle.

Of course you fell for the anti mormons of the day, I will give you a example of Hurburt-Howe of the infamous Mormonism Unveiled.. chuckle

Some of Ingersoll's claims are clearly false, based on other, more reliable testimony​

Some of Ingersoll's claims are clearly false, based on other, more reliable testimony. It is telling that the critics often wish to jettison Ingersoll's claims as those of a teller-of-tall-tales or a liar when it is clear that he cannot be trusted. Yet, when no evidence exists (pro- or con-) save Ingersoll's testimony, they then present his witness as a reliable data point for conclusions about the early years of Joseph Smith and his family. Of Ingersoll's claims, Richard L. Anderson noted:

Peter lived near Joseph Smith and was employed to go with him to Pennsylvania to move Emma's personal property to the Smith farm in the fall of 1827. Ingersoll claims that after this, Joseph told him he brought home white sand in his work frock and walked into the house to find "the family" (parents, Emma, brothers and sisters) eating. When they asked what he carried, he "very gravely" told them (for the first time) that he had a "golden Bible" and had received a revelation that no one could see it and live. At that point (according to Ingersoll), Joseph offered to let the family see, but they fearfully refused, and Ingersoll says that Joseph added, "Now, I have got the damned fools fixed, and will carry out the fun."
Rodger Anderson [author of the book under review by Anderson] agrees with me that this is just a tall tale. Why? Family sources prove they looked forward to getting the plates long before this late 1827 occurrence, and Joseph had far more respect for his family than the anecdote allows. So Rodger Anderson thinks that Ingersoll at first believed Joseph and then retaliated: "it seems likely that Ingersoll created the story as a way of striking back at Smith for his own gullibility in swallowing a story he later became convinced was a hoax" (p. 56). That may be, and there are perhaps others making affidavits with similar motives. But the more provable point is that good stories die hard. Facts were obviously bent to make Joseph Smith the butt of many a joke. So anecdotes could be yarns good for a guffaw around a pot-bellied stove.
Ingersoll has another story in this class. Joseph planned to move Emma and the plates to Pennsylvania at the end of 1827. Then Ingersoll has Joseph playing a religious mind game with Martin Harris: "I . . . told him that I had a command to ask the first honest man I met with, for fifty dollars in money, and he would let me have it. I saw at once, said Jo, that it took his notion, for he promptly give me the fifty." Willard Chase tells a similar story, not identifying his source. But in this case both Joseph Smith and Martin Harris gave their recollections. Both say that Martin was converted to Joseph Smith's revelations first and then offered the money out of conviction, not because of sudden street-side flattery. The best historical evidence is not something told by another party, especially one with hostility to the person he is reporting....
Rodger Anderson recoils at my suggestion that the affidavits were "contaminated by Hurlbut," but he has merely argued harder for one road to this same result. Rodger Anderson then contends that Hurlbut's influence does not matter, since many of the statements were signed under oath before a magistrate. This is one of scores of irrelevancies. The question is credibility, not form. As Jesus essentially said in the Sermon on the Mount, the honest person is regularly believable, not just under oath. Nor does the act of signing settle all, since it is hardly human nature to read the fine print of a contract or all details of prewritten petitions. Rodger Anderson finds Ingersoll's sand-for-plates story "the most dubious" (p. 56) and thus admits that Ingersoll is "the possible exception" in "knowingly swearing to a lie" (p. 114). But Ingersoll does not tell taller stories than many others glinting in the hostile statements reprinted by Rodger Anderson. Like the persecuting orthodox from the Pharisees to the Puritans, the New York community was performing an act of moral virtue to purge itself of the stigma of an offending new religion. Hurlbut contributed to the process of mutual contamination of similar stories and catch-words....
Rodger Anderson closes his survey with the appeal to accept "the Hurlbut-Deming affidavits" as significant "primary documents relating to Joseph Smith's early life and the origins of Mormonism" (p. 114). Some tell of "early life," but many only repeat tall tales or disclose the prejudice that Joseph Smith said faced him from the beginning. There are some authentic facts about the outward life of young Joseph, but his inner life makes him significant. It is this other half that the testimonials brashly claim to penetrate but cannot. To the extent that the Prophet's spiritual experiences are the primary issue, the Hurlbut-Deming statements are not primary documents.
Here I have discussed some aspects of their objective shortcomings, but I do not intend to take much time answering countercharges. Those who think like Rodger Anderson will continue to reason that the Hurlbut-Deming materials contain serious history because "many based their descriptions on close association with the Joseph Smith, Sr., family" (p. 114). That is too sloppy for my taste. Downgrading a reputation is serious business, and I want a reasonable burden of proof to be met on each major contention. Knowing the family is not enough—knowing specific incidents is required. The mathematics of true personal history is fairly simple: half-truths added to others still retain their category of half-truths; conclusions without personal knowledge have zero value; and any number multiplied by zero is still zero.
A final, highly personal reaction: I once discussed a negative biography with a friend, literature professor Neal Lambert. After pointing out shortcomings in method and evidence, I self-consciously added an intuitive judgment: "and I think there is a poor tone to the book." Instantly picking up my apologetic manner, Neal answered vigorously, "But tone is everything." In reality, attitude penetrates the judgments we make, whether in gathering the Hurlbut-Deming materials or in defending them. With few exceptions, the mind-set of these testimonials is skeptical, hypercritical, ridiculing. But history is a serious effort to understand, and tools with the above labels have limited value. [3]






 

Reminiscence of William D. Purple, 28 April 1877 Published JS trial notes as “Joseph Smith, the Originator of Mormonism,” 1877​




Joseph Sr. was a universalist, and Lucy, especially after Alvins death leaned towards Methodist ideology. I believe Joseph was somewhere in-between.

Yes, even after he had the first vision, he went to church with the family, I believe Methodist.... he never joined even thought the critics said he did.
He filled out a roll call passed around the class...






Of course you fell for the anti mormons of the day, I will give you a example of Hurburt-Howe of the infamous Mormonism Unveiled.. chuckle

Some of Ingersoll's claims are clearly false, based on other, more reliable testimony​

Some of Ingersoll's claims are clearly false, based on other, more reliable testimony. It is telling that the critics often wish to jettison Ingersoll's claims as those of a teller-of-tall-tales or a liar when it is clear that he cannot be trusted. Yet, when no evidence exists (pro- or con-) save Ingersoll's testimony, they then present his witness as a reliable data point for conclusions about the early years of Joseph Smith and his family. Of Ingersoll's claims, Richard L. Anderson noted:
 
Reminiscence of William D. Purple, 28 April 1877 Published JS trial notes as “Joseph Smith, the Originator of Mormonism,” 1877
???what is you point???

Yes, even after he had the first vision, he went to church with the family, I believe Methodist.... he never joined even thought the critics said he did.
He filled out a roll call passed around the class...
Yes, what is your point...he was still a universalist... there is no debate on this.
 
Well great, we can move on....
It is important to the Smith family construct...why? do you know? How did this play on Joseph as a young man, his father struggling with "drink" and being a universalist and a money digger, and his mother a Presbyterian and Methodist, affect his life, especially after Alvin died?
 
Well great, we can move on....
Oh yea, love to see his original notes...

Oh yea, about Mr. Purple and his stories of treasure, sacrifice and spirits... chuckle. You would be one who would believe a story like this Markk and leave the church thinking, Oh My! Mr. Purple is a man of truth and the story really sounds creditable... chuckle.

Mr. Thompson, an employee of Mr. Stowell, was the next witness. He and another man were employed in digging for treasure, and always attended the Deacon and Smith in their nocturnal labors. He could not assert that anything of value was ever obtained by them. The following scene was described by this witness, and carefully noted: Smith had told the Deacon that very many years before a band of robbers had buried on his flat a box of treasure, and as it was very valuable they had by a sacrifice placed a charm over it to protect it, so that it could not be obtained except by faith, accompanied by certain talismanic influences. So, after arming themselves with fasting and prayer, they sallied forth to the spot designated by Smith. Digging was commenced with fear and trembling, in the presence of this imaginary charm. In a few feet from the surface the box of treasure was struck by the shovel, on which they redoubled their energies, but it gradually receded from their grasp. One of the men placed his hand upon the box, but it gradually sunk from his reach. After some five feet in depth had been attained without success, a council of war against this spirit of darkness was called, and they resolved that the lack of faith, or of some untoward mental emotions, was the cause of their failure.
In this emergency the fruitful mind of Smith was called on to devise a way to obtain the prize. Mr. Stowell went to his flock and selected a fine vigorous lamb, and resolved to sacrifice it to the demon spirit who guarded the coveted treasure. Shortly after the venerable Deacon might be seen on his knees at prayer near the pit, while Smith, with a lantern in one hand to dispel the midnight darkness, might be seen making a circuit around the pit, sprinkling the flowing blood from the lamb upon the ground, as a propitiation to the spirit that thwarted them. They then descended the excavation, but the treasure still receded from their grasp, and it was never obtained.
 
Oh yea, love to see his original notes...

Oh yea, about Mr. Purple and his stories of treasure, sacrifice and spirits... chuckle. You would be one who would believe a story like this Markk and leave the church thinking, Oh My! Mr. Purple is a man of truth and the story really sounds creditable... chuckle.

Mr. Thompson, an employee of Mr. Stowell, was the next witness. He and another man were employed in digging for treasure, and always attended the Deacon and Smith in their nocturnal labors. He could not assert that anything of value was ever obtained by them. The following scene was described by this witness, and carefully noted: Smith had told the Deacon that very many years before a band of robbers had buried on his flat a box of treasure, and as it was very valuable they had by a sacrifice placed a charm over it to protect it, so that it could not be obtained except by faith, accompanied by certain talismanic influences. So, after arming themselves with fasting and prayer, they sallied forth to the spot designated by Smith. Digging was commenced with fear and trembling, in the presence of this imaginary charm. In a few feet from the surface the box of treasure was struck by the shovel, on which they redoubled their energies, but it gradually receded from their grasp. One of the men placed his hand upon the box, but it gradually sunk from his reach. After some five feet in depth had been attained without success, a council of war against this spirit of darkness was called, and they resolved that the lack of faith, or of some untoward mental emotions, was the cause of their failure.
In this emergency the fruitful mind of Smith was called on to devise a way to obtain the prize. Mr. Stowell went to his flock and selected a fine vigorous lamb, and resolved to sacrifice it to the demon spirit who guarded the coveted treasure. Shortly after the venerable Deacon might be seen on his knees at prayer near the pit, while Smith, with a lantern in one hand to dispel the midnight darkness, might be seen making a circuit around the pit, sprinkling the flowing blood from the lamb upon the ground, as a propitiation to the spirit that thwarted them. They then descended the excavation, but the treasure still receded from their grasp, and it was never obtained.
Ralf, ???what does purples account have to do with Joe Sr, being a universalist?

But, in regard to Purple, after you learned he is a firsthand account, you now attack his character? Ralf, no history reconstruction is perfect, but one can examine the different accounts and when accounts complement each other, it is most likely a safe and reliable reconstruction.

There are scores of accounts that compliments most of Purple's account of the witness's testimony. The reality is you are not ready to deal with what you might actually find out.

I wrote above..."It is important to the Smith family construct...why? do you know? How did this play on Joseph as a young man, his father struggling with "drink" and being a universalist and a money digger, and his mother a Presbyterian and Methodist, affect his life, especially after Alvin died?"

Hopefully you will ponder on this, it is important in understanding Joseph.
 
Ralf, ???what does purples account have to do with Joe Sr, being a universalist?

Absolutely nothing... but this is what you stated: "It is important to the Smith family construct...why? do you know? How did this play on Joseph as a young man, his father struggling with "drink" and being a universalist and a money digger, and his mother a Presbyterian and Methodist, affect his life, especially after Alvin died?

Purple and others claimed JS was a money digger... I just showed you how inconsistent in telling stories Purple is and how wild they are, but of course you would believe all that silliness.

But, in regard to Purple, after you learned he is a firsthand account, you now attack his character? Ralf, no history reconstruction is perfect, but one can examine the different accounts and when accounts complement each other, it is most likely a safe and reliable reconstruction.

There are scores of accounts that compliments most of Purple's account of the witness's testimony. The reality is you are not ready to deal with what you might actually find out.

I wrote above..."It is important to the Smith family construct...why? do you know? How did this play on Joseph as a young man, his father struggling with "drink" and being a universalist and a money digger, and his mother a Presbyterian and Methodist, affect his life, especially after Alvin died?"

Hopefully you will ponder on this, it is important in understanding Joseph.
“He had heard something of a silver mine having been opened by the Spaniards in Harmony, Susquehanna county, state of Pennsylvania; and had, previous to my hiring to him, been digging, in order, if possible, to discover the mine. After I went to live with him, he took me, with the rest of his hands, to dig for the silver mine, at which I continued to work for nearly a month, without success in our undertaking, and finally I prevailed with the old gentleman to cease digging after it. Hence arose the very prevalent story of my having been a money-digger.” (History of the Church, 1:17.)
 
Absolutely nothing... but this is what you stated: "It is important to the Smith family construct...why? do you know? How did this play on Joseph as a young man, his father struggling with "drink" and being a universalist and a money digger, and his mother a Presbyterian and Methodist, affect his life, especially after Alvin died?

Purple and others claimed JS was a money digger... I just showed you how inconsistent in telling stories Purple is and how wild they are, but of course you would believe all that silliness.
Ralf, the church admits he was a money digger, Joseph admitted he was a money digger, as did his father and others close to him.

This is one reason why I keep stating you are no emotionally ready for this conversation Ralf…Focus, “The church admits he was a money digger,”. I have given you this link many times, stop, focus, and read this article, and understand what the church teaches.

Treasure Seeking

Joseph Smith’s critics often tried to disparage him by calling him a money digger or a treasure seeker. Rather than deny the charge, Joseph acknowledged in his official history that Josiah Stowell had hired him in 1825 to assist in a treasure-seeking venture in northern Pennsylvania.1 Stowell wanted his help because Joseph was reputed by some of his neighbors to be a “seer”—someone who could look into a special stone and find lost or hidden objects.2
“Seeing” and “seers” were part of the culture in which Joseph Smith grew up. Some people in the early 19th century believed it was possible for gifted individuals to see lost objects by means of material objects such as stones. Joseph Smith and his family, like many around them, accepted these familiar folk practices.
In the 1820s, a fascination with purported Spanish treasure deposits led prospectors like Josiah Stowell to enlist the aid of seers like Joseph in their search for treasure. Stowell trusted Joseph, sought his assistance in seeking treasure, and even took his advice to finally give up the hunt. Joseph Smith Sr. considered his son’s ability sacred and hoped he would cease using it to look for earthly treasures.4 As Joseph prepared to translate the Book of Mormon, he was commanded to have nothing further to do with those who sought treasure and instead use his gift to translate and seek revelation.
Though it was not uncommon in Joseph Smith’s time and place to encounter people who claimed to use stones to search for lost or hidden objects, using a seer stone to translate an ancient record was unheard of. God gave Joseph Smith power to translate the Book of Mormon, redirecting Joseph’s use of the seer stone toward work of a spiritual nature.

 
“He had heard something of a silver mine having been opened by the Spaniards in Harmony, Susquehanna county, state of Pennsylvania; and had, previous to my hiring to him, been digging, in order, if possible, to discover the mine. After I went to live with him, he took me, with the rest of his hands, to dig for the silver mine, at which I continued to work for nearly a month, without success in our undertaking, and finally I prevailed with the old gentleman to cease digging after it. Hence arose the very prevalent story of my having been a money-digger.” (History of the Church, 1:17.)
Yes Ralf, it was a prevalent story, a true story. And the history if also prevalent that he was hired because of his ” ability to see treasures”…and when he told them they they needed to stop digging, it was because he said the enchantment was too strong.


Go to this link and then press note #19 Ralf
 
Ralf, the church admits he was a money digger, Joseph admitted he was a money digger, as did his father and others close to him.

This is one reason why I keep stating you are no emotionally ready for this conversation Ralf…Focus, “The church admits he was a money digger,”. I have given you this link many times, stop, focus, and read this article, and understand what the church teaches.






Treasure Seeking

Joseph Smith’s critics often tried to disparage him by calling him a money digger or a treasure seeker. Rather than deny the charge, Joseph acknowledged in his official history that Josiah Stowell had hired him in 1825 to assist in a treasure-seeking venture in northern Pennsylvania.1 Stowell wanted his help because Joseph was reputed by some of his neighbors to be a “seer”—someone who could look into a special stone and find lost or hidden objects.2
“Seeing” and “seers” were part of the culture in which Joseph Smith grew up. Some people in the early 19th century believed it was possible for gifted individuals to see lost objects by means of material objects such as stones. Joseph Smith and his family, like many around them, accepted these familiar folk practices.
In the 1820s, a fascination with purported Spanish treasure deposits led prospectors like Josiah Stowell to enlist the aid of seers like Joseph in their search for treasure. Stowell trusted Joseph, sought his assistance in seeking treasure, and even took his advice to finally give up the hunt. Joseph Smith Sr. considered his son’s ability sacred and hoped he would cease using it to look for earthly treasures.4 As Joseph prepared to translate the Book of Mormon, he was commanded to have nothing further to do with those who sought treasure and instead use his gift to translate and seek revelation.
Though it was not uncommon in Joseph Smith’s time and place to encounter people who claimed to use stones to search for lost or hidden objects, using a seer stone to translate an ancient record was unheard of. God gave Joseph Smith power to translate the Book of Mormon, redirecting Joseph’s use of the seer stone toward work of a spiritual nature.


Joseph’s description of his treasure digging in his 1839 history:

In the month of October Eighteen hundred and twenty five I hired with an old Gentleman, by name of Josiah Stoal who lived in Chenango County, State of New York. He had heard something of a silver mine having been opened by the Spaniards in Harmony, Susquehanah County, State of Pennsylvania, and had previous to my hiring with him been digging in order if possible to discover the mine. After I went to live with him he took me among the rest of his hands to dig for the silver mine, at which I continued to work for nearly a month without success in our undertaking, and finally I prevailed with the old gentleman to cease digging after it. Hence arose the very prevalent story of my having been a money digger.
 
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