More destruction to God’s word from the magic marker of W&H

Leatherneck0311

Well-known member
Far more than you do, obviously...



Um, the Tyndale and the Geneva POST-DATED the printing press...
Hello?!
History... It's a good thing to study.
You should try it some time.

But your response seems nonsensical... So now you're trying to argue that being "wide spread" is more important than accuracy, in terms of the "one true Bible"?

Seriously?!



So you're saying hate KJV used "cheaper" paper than the Geneva?!
We’re done ! If you have anything of substance and not biased based get back with me. God preserved His word and for some strange reason many who profess to trust and follow Him use that promise as a springboard to undermine and water down God’s word to whatever any textual critic wants it to say.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
We’re done ! If you have anything of substance and not biased based get back with me. God preserved His word and for some strange reason many who profess to trust and follow Him use that promise as a springboard to undermine and water down God’s word to whatever any textual critic wants it to say.

Just as I figured...
You're unable to defend your irrational view, so you just run away.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Seems that is all you have I.e. nothing.

You're the one with all the insults, personal attacks, ad homs, and ipse dixits ....


Btw, I'm STILL waiting for you (or anyone else to explain why the KJV rendering, "are saved", is allegedly the correct rendering for the CONTINUOUS past participle, "σῳζομένοις".

How is "are saved" continuous, or a better rendering than "being saved"?

You don't seem to have an answer for that.
Only childish insults.
 

Leatherneck0311

Well-known member
You're the one with all the insults, personal attacks, ad homs, and ipse dixits ....


Btw, I'm STILL waiting for you (or anyone else to explain why the KJV rendering, "are saved", is allegedly the correct rendering for the CONTINUOUS past participle, "σῳζομένοις".

How is "are saved" continuous, or a better rendering than "being saved"?

You don't seem to have an answer for that.
Only childish insults.
If you’re a Christian you are saved and if you’re into the lies of the RCC you’re being saved.
 

Steven Avery

Active member
Btw, I'm STILL waiting for you (or anyone else to explain why the KJV rendering, "are saved", is allegedly the correct rendering for the CONTINUOUS past participle, "σῳζομένοις". How is "are saved" continuous, or a better rendering than "being saved"?

1 Corinthians 1:17-18 (AV)
For Christ sent me not to baptize,
but to preach the gospel:
not with wisdom of words,
lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness;
but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.


KJVToday goes into this question:

“Are saved” or “Are being saved” in 1 Corinthians 1:18 et al.?
https://www.kjvtoday.com/home/are-saved-or-are-being-saved-in-1-corinthians-118-et-al

The Greek verb σωζομενοις is in the present passive participle, signifying an ongoing passive action. In English, an ongoing passive act can be expressed by either “are being + (past participle)” or “are + (past participle)”. For example, the statement, “The files are saved on the computer” means the same thing as "The files are being saved on the computer". In both cases, what is expressed is that the computer is storing the files at this present moment. However, the phrase "are being saved" is unnecessarily wordy since "are saved" conveys the same intended meaning. Moreover, "are being saved" has an unintended connotation of an ongoing but incomplete process. Although "salvation" in some aspects are still incomplete (e.g. we who are in physical distress are yet to be physically "saved"), salvation in the context of 1 Corinthians 1:18 refers to the completed act of God saving a person from sin through Christ's work on the cross.

And I would be happy to hear what those who are natively fluent Greek speakers would say on this question. Rather than USA and UK atomistic seminarians.

To me "are being saved" puts the emphasis on a process rather than on salvation, which comes from the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the shedding of his blood for an atonement.

Read the context of the two verses.

In your view, should it be "them that are perishing"?
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
While the phrase textual criticism is anachronistic, it is true that their textual understandings were far superior to that today. You like the Geneva Bible, at times, and it was a result of the textual analysis of the learned men of the 1500s. So you should agree with the basic understanding.

Then why do you reject the Geneva Bible like King James did?

You should agree with basic understanding.
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
1 Corinthians 1:17-18 (AV)
For Christ sent me not to baptize,
but to preach the gospel:
not with wisdom of words,
lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness;
but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.


KJVToday goes into this question:



And I would be happy to hear what those who are natively fluent Greek speakers would say on this question. Rather than USA and UK atomistic seminarians.

To me "are being saved" puts the emphasis on a process rather than on salvation, which comes from the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the shedding of his blood for an atonement.

Read the context of the two verses.

In your view, should it be "them that are perishing"?

Your reference talks of "are being saved" as being "wordy".......

I mean seriously Avery. Why do you provide such nonsense and then depart from it yourself?
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
Do you even think about what you post ? There was no wide spread bible in the English speaking world before the KJV. Sure some folks had a bible but before the printing press ( which Rome thought was evil) bibles were expensive and few actually could afford one, and Rome did everything it could to prevent any circulation of all bibles.

Books were COMMON..... BEFORE the printing press....... Did you know this?

The false narrative of the KJVOist would have people believe that no one owned a published book before the printing press.... Which is entirely ridiculous.

Beside the first Bible that came off the printing press was the Gutenberg Bible. I suppose you don't really care. It doesn't "fit" your narrative.
 
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Theo1689

Well-known member
KJVToday goes into this question:

The Greek verb σωζομενοις is in the present passive participle, signifying an ongoing passive action. In English, an ongoing passive act can be expressed by either “are being + (past participle)” or “are + (past participle)”.

Can you give a non-KJV-Only source that says "are + (past participle) is a correct expression of a continuing participle? Because that is simply wrong.

(I did a very quick Google search and found two websites which supported my view, and didn't offer "are" + "past participle" as a valid structure for continuous past.)


"Are + (past participle) is the formation of a PERFECT verb tense, which is defined as a COMPLETED (not "continuous") past action with enduring effects into the present.

That's the difference between "imperfect" (ie. "was being saved"),
and "perfect" tense (ie. "HAS been saved.")

For example, the statement, “The files are saved on the computer” means the same thing as "The files are being saved on the computer".

No, that's simply not true.
"The files ARE BEING saved", means that the files are IN THE PROCESS of being written onto the disk drive.
"The files ARE" saved, means the saving of the files has been COMPLETED, and the files are still available to be accessed.

In both cases, what is expressed is that the computer is storing the files at this present moment.

Sorry, but my degree is in computer science.
And NO Computer technician would say, "the files ARE saved" if they intended to convey that the writing process was still in progress.

However, the phrase "are being saved" is unnecessarily wordy since "are saved" conveys the same intended meaning.

No, they don't have the same meaning at all.
One is continuous, the other is completed.

Moreover, "are being saved" has an unintended connotation of an ongoing but incomplete process.

Since the participle IS "continuous", it is not an "unintended" connotation. It is by definition the INTENDED connotation. It hasn't been completed yet. That's why it's "continuous".

Although "salvation" in some aspects are still incomplete (e.g. we who are in physical distress are yet to be physically "saved"), salvation in the context of 1 Corinthians 1:18 refers to the completed act of God saving a person from sin through Christ's work on the cross.

Then you're claiming Paul was WRONG in using the continuous participle?!
Can you please provide a manuscript (any manuscript) that has the PERFECT participle at 1 Cor. 1:18?

To me "are being saved" puts the emphasis on a process rather than on salvation, which comes from the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the shedding of his blood for an atonement.

So you don't care what the Greek text actually says, is that what I'm hearing?

Read the context of the two verses.

So you can use the "context" to deny the actual words Paul used?

In your view, should it be "them that are perishing"?

Well, let's see what the Greek scholars have to say:

1Cor. 1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (ESV)

1Cor. 1:18 For the message about the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (NET)

1Cor. 1:18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (NASB)

1Cor. 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but it is God’s power to us who are being saved. (HCSB)

What is VERY interesting to me is the NKJV rendering:

1Cor. 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (NKJV)
 

Shoonra

Member
Is this a complaint about the Greek text of W&H or is it about the English translations of various Greek editions?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Is this a complaint about the Greek text of W&H or is it about the English translations of various Greek editions?

1) "complaint" seems a very bizarre term to use. We are discussing the correct rendering of a participle in 1 Cor. 1:18.

2) Nobody uses the "W&H" text anymore. Bible translations are either based on the TR, the MT, or the Critical text (which is far more comprehensive than "W&H").

1Cor. 1:18 Ὁ λόγος γὰρ ὁ τοῦ σταυροῦ τοῖς μὲν ἀπολλυμένοις μωρία ἐστί, τοῖς δὲ σῳζομένοις ἡμῖν δύναμις Θεοῦ ἐστι. (TR)

1Cor. 1:18 Ὁ λόγος γὰρ ὁ τοῦ σταυροῦ τοῖς μὲν ἀπολλυμένοις μωρία ἐστίν, τοῖς δὲ σῳζομένοις ἡμῖν δύναμις θεοῦ ἐστιν. (NA28)

There is no difference in the two texts, other than the moveable-nu on "εστι", which doesn't affect the meaning in any way.

The participle, "σῳζομένοις", is what most Greek grammars call the "present passive". But since Greek participles don't have any time component, (Bill) Mounce prefers to call it the "continuous passive" participle, to emphasize the continuous aspect.

"are being saved" captures the continuous aspect.
"are saved" does not.
 
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Steven Avery

Active member
Your reference talks of "are being saved" as being "wordy".......
I mean seriously Avery. Why do you provide such nonsense and then depart from it yourself?

And I explained that my understanding is emphasis. Are being saved is more emphasis on the process. Are saved is succinct and to the point of the crucifixion and atoning blood of the Lord Jesus If you don't like wordy, try awkward.
 

Steven Avery

Active member
2)... the MT, or the Critical text (which is far more comprehensive than "W&H").

Basically the same text, with the rejection of Hort's non-western interpolations.

What variants have changed from the "more comprehensive"?

Give some examples where the "more comprehensive" is even relevant.
 
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