More destruction to God’s word from the magic marker of W&H

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
And I explained that my understanding is emphasis. Are being saved is more emphasis on the process. Are saved is succinct and to the point of the crucifixion and atoning blood of the Lord Jesus If you don't like wordy, try awkward.

It doesn't matter what I like. "Wordy" doesn't mean "awkward". There is a reason that they are two different words in the English language.

Why are you acting as if they're the same?

It appears that you're just desperately trying to come up with an excuse for the mistake in the KJV. It doesn't matter to you if your excuse is real or not.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Basically the same text, with the rejection of Hort's non-western interpolations

... which basically confirms the W&H text as accurate, as more and earlier mss. simply confirm the accuracy.

What "interpolations" are you referring to?
Are you claiming that W&H made conjectural emendations, like Erasmus did?
Or are you simply taking issue with how they handled lacunae?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
It doesn't matter what I like. "Wordy" doesn't mean "awkward". There is a reason that they are two different words in the English language.

... not to mention two different words in the Greek.

If Paul had wanted to say, "σωζομεθα" or "εσωθημεν" instead of, "σωζομενοις", he could have done so.
 
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Steven Avery

Active member
It doesn't matter what I like. "Wordy" doesn't mean "awkward". There is a reason that they are two different words in the English language. Why are you acting as if they're the same? It appears that you're just desperately trying to come up with an excuse for the mistake in the KJV. It doesn't matter to you if your excuse is real or not.
Typical diversion nonsense.

And I quoted the gentleman who used "wordy" and I explained my personal explanation, which is somewhat different.
 

Steven Avery

Active member
Btw, I'm STILL waiting for you (or anyone else to explain why the KJV rendering, "are saved", is allegedly the correct rendering for the CONTINUOUS past participle, "σῳζομένοις".

Both English texts are grammatically possible.

Contextually "are saved" is superior. Which I explained above. YMMV.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Typical diversion nonsense.

And I quoted the gentleman who used "wordy" and I explained my personal explanation, which is somewhat different.

I think it's obvious to everyone that KJV-Only's are incapable of defending their view.
They have nothing of substance EVER to respond with, and are limited to snarky comments like:

a) "blah-blah".
b) "your handlers have taught you well";
c) "typical diversion nonsense"
d) "Aland was an adulterer, and Mollenkott is gay";
e) "Here, read these books of KJVO propaganda so you will be brainwashed like us"
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Both English texts are grammatically possible.

That is simply false.
I have already linked you to two websites, neither of which identifies "are saved" as grammatically possible.

And the only source you offer is a KJVO-biased source.
Your "handlers" have taught you well....
:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
 

Steven Avery

Active member
I think it's obvious to everyone that KJV-Only's are incapable of defending their view.
They have nothing of substance EVER to respond with, and are limited to snarky comments like:

Except that I have replied with substance on any interesting issue.

e.g. All the times that you quote a handful of Greek mss. and wrongly think you are hitting the salient textual points.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Except that I have replied with substance on any interesting issue.

No, actually, you haven't.

You quoted a biased KJV-Only source that made a claim of grammar that is NOWHERE to be found in the (unbiased) literature.

"are saved" simply NOT "continuous".
It's not.
That's an undeniable fact.
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
Typical diversion nonsense.

And I quoted the gentleman who used "wordy" and I explained my personal explanation, which is somewhat different.

Diversion? I know you quoted him. I read what he wrote. You are the one who took what he said is "wordy" and tried to make "awkward" its synonym.
 

Steven Avery

Active member
That is simply false.
I have already linked you to two websites, neither of which identifies "are saved" as grammatically possible.

Wow. Two websites.

EDITED BY MODERATOR

A question, are the writers of those two websites native, fluent Greek speakers?
Or simply piddle-Greek seminarians.
 
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Theo1689

Well-known member
lol - so you acknowledge that you just went website hunting.

No, it's much simpler than that.

In 1 Cor. 1:18, we read:

1Cor. 1:18 Ὁ λόγος γὰρ ὁ τοῦ σταυροῦ τοῖς μὲν ἀπολλυμένοις μωρία ἐστί, τοῖς δὲ σωζομένοις ἡμῖν δύναμις Θεοῦ ἐστι.

We have two verbs (bolded red), both of which are passive continuous participles, namely "are perishing", and "are being saved", respectively.

The KJV has an error here, and renders the latter as "are saved", which is not continuous.

I quoted (the first) two websites explaining how to render passive continuous participles in English, and NEITHER of them claimed that "are saved" is a valid way of rendering a continuous participle. I could probably find ten more, or twenty more.

You have offered ZERO websites which confirm your FALSE claim that "are saved" is a valid way to render the continuous passive participle. All you did was offer a pro-KJV-Only website, which is incredibly biased. Of course a KJVO website is going to say the KJV rendering is correct.

But if you go to ANY English grammar website, which is independent of studying Bible translations, we find out that your claim is FALSE.

THAT is the issue.

It is not a matter of "cherry-picking".
It is not a matter of "hunting for websites".

It is simply a matter that your claim is FACTUALLY false.
 

Steven Avery

Active member
Your response is one-dimensional. As I pointed out earlier, the translation decisions also includes emphasis. In English you want a translation that puts the emphasis on the process rather than the fact of salvation through the finished work of the Lord Jesus through the crucifixion, shedding of blood, atonement and resurrection.

Your computer examples are a disaster. A lot depends on the context.

If someone asks me "where are the files saved"?

I might say "they are being saved in the cloud, and also on a mirror in Oshkosh, and also on special partition, we believe in redundancy". That is perfectly fine English and does not mean that any save is in process at the moment. The word being supplies emphasis on the the process of backing up, it does not necessarily mean current action.

As often happens, your weakness starts in English.
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
Your response is one-dimensional. As I pointed out earlier, the translation decisions also includes emphasis. In English you want a translation that puts the emphasis on the process

So Avery chooses his translation based upon the "emphasis" found in certain verses....

Sounds right for a KJVOist. It doesn't matter if the evidence is there for said "emphasis" or not. So long as it fit their narrative, they don't care. Which is what you expect from a despot king such as James. He has his way in the translation and now hundreds of years later you have people like Avery that would rather you bow to their "emphasis" than receive what the apostles and disciples of Christ want you to have.
 

Steven Avery

Active member
I might say "they are being saved in the cloud, and also on a mirror in Oshkosh, and also on special partition, we believe in redundancy". That is perfectly fine English and does not mean that any save is in process at the moment. The word being supplies emphasis on the the process of backing up, it does not necessarily mean current action.

Notice. It does mean that in current days, saves do occur. It is not only back saves from when the company was in business in 2018.

However, it definitely does NOT mean that there is a save going on right know.

(Granted, mirrors might mean real-time, so we will replace that with "a server in Oshkosh". It might have a save once a week or month.)
 
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