More False JW Doctrines

robycop3

Active member
JWs believe only the big shots in the Watchtower can correctly interpret the Bible & accurately teach it.

Hell is the grave & the wicked will be annihilated.

The Trinity is pagan & trinitarians believe Jesus is the person of the Father.(Double false doctrine)

Jesus is not Divine, but is the archangel Michael.(Discussed in another thread)

Only 144K will be "born again" & go to heaven; & the other JWs will reside on "Paradise Earth".

Jesus began to reign invisibly "in the heavenlies" in 1914.

The most-accurate Bible translation of all is their "New World Translation".

There are other false beliefs & doctrines, but these are the worst. Let's debunk them here. First, their New World Translation was made in 1950 by Freddie Franz(who later became Big Kahoona of the WT) & his buddy George Gangas, a Greek Cypriot, neither mof whom knew a word of ancient Hebrew. They sat down with the British Revised version of 1881, a not-too-popular translation, & re-worded it to fit JW doctrine. It doesn't even line mup with their Greek Interlinear !

They base their "hell=grave" doctrine on the KJV's mistranslation of sheol/hades as hell.

They ignore many Scriptures in LEGITIMATE Bibles that call Jesus Divine & set forth the Trinity doctrine in the story of Jesus' baptism, & Jesus' own words, such as "My Father is greater than I."

The 144K of Revelation will all be Israelis, 12K from each tribe, as Scripture says. There's NO mention of their exclusively going to heaven.

They've made many false prophecies about the battle of Armageddon & when Jesus would return, beginning with 1914. There are but 2 things to know about false prophets: 1.) Do they claim to speak in the name of the Lord? 2.) Do their prophecies come to pass, 100% spot on ? If any part of any of their prophecies fail, they're FALSE PROPHETS ! GOD'S prophets have a 1.000 batting average so far, and will continue to have it til all is fulfilled!

Before 1914, "the end" was supposed to have occurred in 1873. As 1914 passed, it became 1925. As 1925 passed, they kept moving it up, all the way through 1975! Why can't people see their "prophecies" are phony as a Ford Corvette & dump that cult ? TRUE prophets of God's did not change their prophecies, unless there was a condition attached, such as when Jonah preached to Nineveh & its people, from the king to the beggar, repented & worshipped the REAL God.

And a very-dangerous false doctrine is their stand against blood transfusions. Simple truth is, IF GOD DIDN'T WANT THEM, THEY WOULDN'T WORK ! God doesn't want us to use animals' blood, so it won't work, & would actually kill its recipient. The Biblical prohibition is against DRINKING blood. In fact, Jesus said, in John 15:13, "Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends." Several times, God said the blood is the life, so anyone giving blood is slightly risking his/her life, but is giving some of his/her own life to save soneone else's. AND SAVING THE LIFE OF ANOTHER PERSON IS NEVER, NEVER EVIL ! !

In summary, the JW is a quasi/pseudo-Christian cult, & is NOT Christian at all, "having a FORM of godliness, but denying its POWER!"
 
JWs believe only the big shots in the Watchtower can correctly interpret the Bible & accurately teach it.
While it is believed that only the "faithful and discreet slave" (class) can correctly interpret the Bible, with regards to teaching it, the Bible is taught by all JWs.

Such is akin to the churches being given their "doctrinal beliefs" by only the ministers in the pulpit.
Hell is the grave & the wicked will be annihilated.
Addressed below.
The Trinity is pagan & trinitarians believe Jesus is the person of the Father.(Double false doctrine)
No JW believes Trinitarians believe Jesus is the person of the Father.
Jesus is not Divine, but is the archangel Michael.(Discussed in another thread)
No JW denies that Jesus is divine. (It is denied that Jesus is God since God is Jesus' Father.)

Being "divine" and being "God" are not the same thing.
Only 144K will be "born again" & go to heaven; & the other JWs will reside on "Paradise Earth".
Discussed below.
Jesus began to reign invisibly "in the heavenlies" in 1914.
This is based on calculations and interpretation of Scripture. (Such cannot be called a "false teaching" since one cannot say whether this is true or not considering no one is in heaven.)
The most-accurate Bible translation of all is their "New World Translation".
JWs have never claimed that the NWT is the most accurate Bible translation of all. (This is hearsay.) However, it was deduced to be "one of the most accurate" (as it was found to be less biased than 7 other popular translations).

As one who has studied (and have degrees in the) biblical languages, I concur that it is more accurate than the "opposers" of it lead people to believe. (One cannot say it is "most accurate Bible translation of all" considering there are too many to compare. What I can say is that out of the 100 English translations I own, all could be translated more accurately then they are.)
There are other false beliefs & doctrines, but these are the worst. Let's debunk them here. First, their New World Translation was made in 1950 by Freddie Franz(who later became Big Kahoona of the WT) & his buddy George Gangas, a Greek Cypriot, neither mof whom knew a word of ancient Hebrew. They sat down with the British Revised version of 1881, a not-too-popular translation, & re-worded it to fit JW doctrine. It doesn't even line mup with their Greek Interlinear !
Where did you get this (mis)information from?

It's interesting to hear someone make false claims to prove something.
They base their "hell=grave" doctrine on the KJV's mistranslation of sheol/hades as hell.
If the KJV (and other Bible translations) mistranslate SHEOL & HADES as "hell", the NWT's (accurate) translation of those terms as "grave" is actually a correction that should be reflected in those translations.

Thus, this is another false claim.
They ignore many Scriptures in LEGITIMATE Bibles that call Jesus Divine & set forth the Trinity doctrine in the story of Jesus' baptism, & Jesus' own words, such as "My Father is greater than I."
There is no "Trinity story in the baptism of Jesus" (as the Trinity is not "God, Jesus, and the holy spirit").

No one ignores scriptures in (so-called) legitimate Bibles. All the scriptures that point to calling Jesus "God" are ambiguous(, which is why they are translated in other so-called "legitimate Bibles" in other ways).

(BTW, I'm not sure why you think JWs ignore Jesus' own words regarding John 14:28.)

The 144K of Revelation will all be Israelis, 12K from each tribe, as Scripture says. There's NO mention of their exclusively going to heaven.
While the "twelve tribes of Israel" are not from the (literal) tribes of Israel, the Scriptures refer to them as the only ones receiving the seal of God. The language regarding the "great multitude" at Revelation 7 is akin to the language at Revelation 21 (after the tent of God descends from heaven).
They've made many false prophecies about the battle of Armageddon & when Jesus would return, beginning with 1914. There are but 2 things to know about false prophets: 1.) Do they claim to speak in the name of the Lord? 2.) Do their prophecies come to pass, 100% spot on ? If any part of any of their prophecies fail, they're FALSE PROPHETS ! GOD'S prophets have a 1.000 batting average so far, and will continue to have it til all is fulfilled!

Before 1914, "the end" was supposed to have occurred in 1873. As 1914 passed, it became 1925. As 1925 passed, they kept moving it up, all the way through 1975! Why can't people see their "prophecies" are phony as a Ford Corvette & dump that cult ? TRUE prophets of God's did not change their prophecies, unless there was a condition attached, such as when Jonah preached to Nineveh & its people, from the king to the beggar, repented & worshipped the REAL God.
No "JW" has ever prophesied. Instead, the WTS has (wrongly) interpreted prophecy.

(BTW, every 'Christian' minister claims to speak "in the name of the Lord". And yet, all of them are wrong about some teachings.)
And a very-dangerous false doctrine is their stand against blood transfusions. Simple truth is, IF GOD DIDN'T WANT THEM, THEY WOULDN'T WORK ! God doesn't want us to use animals' blood, so it won't work, & would actually kill its recipient. The Biblical prohibition is against DRINKING blood. In fact, Jesus said, in John 15:13, "Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends." Several times, God said the blood is the life, so anyone giving blood is slightly risking his/her life, but is giving some of his/her own life to save soneone else's. AND SAVING THE LIFE OF ANOTHER PERSON IS NEVER, NEVER EVIL ! !
Stating that "if God didn't want them, they wouldn't work" with regards to abstaining from blood is like saying "if God didn't want them, they wouldn't work" with regards to abstaining from fornication.

Besides, blood transfusions require one to "feed (the body blood) intravenously". Thus, such is not "abstaining from blood" (even if one restricts the prohibition at Acts 17:29 to "eating blood").
In summary, the JW is a quasi/pseudo-Christian cult, & is NOT Christian at all, "having a FORM of godliness, but denying its POWER!"
Interesting summation.
 

robycop3

Active member
The Bible doesn't really need too much interpretation, if one reads & believes it all.

Sheol/hades is the temporary abode of the souls of the dead. it's divided into 'tormants' & 'paradise' as seen in Jesus' parable of the rich man & the beggar Lazarus, & by Jesus' words to the repentant thief on the cross. And Scripture clearly says that the wicked souls are in the lake of fire FOREVER, not annihilated.

Isaiah wrote that among names Jesus would be called is "mighty God". Jesus Himself said, "I & My Father are one." And Jesus accepted worship, something no one but God would do, if they were loyal to God The Father.

Denying the Holy Trinity is denying the veracity of Matt. 28:19 & 2 Cor. 13:14.

Michael was not, is not, & never was, Jesus.

Jesus was resurrected into the body He died in. It was gone from the tomb, & he had the wounds from the nails & the spear after he was resurrected. Yes, that body was changed some by His power, but it was still physical & was the body He died in.

The Holy Spirit is a Personage, part of the one Godhead, along with God The Father & God The Son. He has:
 

robycop3

Active member
About blood: I see you have no reply to the FACT that a person saving another person's life is NEVER, NEVER EVIL. So, giving or receiving a blood TFX is NOT wrong.

In late 2000, my wife was almost killed in a schoolbus rollover, in which she was the monitor. Her life was saved, first, by God's will & power, and by four blood TFXs after internal bleeding. Her spleen was ruptured, & both lungs punctured, so God's power ceetainly saved her. But, has she not had the blood, she woulda died. God used His power enough so that medical science could save her. We are NOT to sit around & wait for GOD to do something WE can do ourselves. Her internal injuries were severe enough that no one would survive them without God's help, but He acted, & allowed the doctors to do the rest. Her survival, her subsequent recovery, & her mind not being altered were all part of God's miracle ! (She spent 1.5 months in ICU, unconscious, but not in a coma.)

I like to tell the story about when I had a tire blow out late at night on Rt. 23 in southern Ohio. It's a busy 4-lane highway. Yes, I prayed for God to protect me. But did I pray for God to change my wheel ? No, I got out & changed it myself. I took all precautions, such as putting out a reflective triangle & 2 fuzees, & kept an eye on the road. But did GOD do HIS part ? ABSOLUTELY ! Only one car went by, & the driver was quite-cautious. Sure, God coulda changed the wheel or even repaired the blown tire. But, as I could change it myself, I didn't ask Him.

And remember, when God was giving His word which He caused to be preserved as Scripture, blood TFXs were unknown. However, certain pagans drank blood as part of some of their rites. Others made "blood pudding".
Again, saving a human life is never evil !
 
The Bible doesn't really need too much interpretation, if one reads & believes it all.

Sheol/hades is the temporary abode of the souls of the dead. it's divided into 'tormants' & 'paradise' as seen in Jesus' parable of the rich man & the beggar Lazarus, & by Jesus' words to the repentant thief on the cross.
Acts 2:31:
WEB
he foreseeing this spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that his soul wasn’t left in Hades, and his flesh didn’t see decay.
WE
David knew what would happen. So he said that Christ would be raised from death. Christ was not left in the grave. His body was not spoiled. David said all this before it ever happened.
WYC
he seeing afar spake of the resurrection of Christ, for neither he was left in hell, neither his flesh saw corruption.
And Scripture clearly says that the wicked souls are in the lake of fire FOREVER, not annihilated.
You do realize that the lake of fire is "the second death", correct? (Compare Matthew 10:28.)
Isaiah wrote that among names Jesus would be called is "mighty God".
No NT writer applied Isaiah 9:6 to Jesus.
Jesus Himself said, "I & My Father are one."
Jesus also said we are one just as they are one (John 17:22).

And Jesus accepted worship, something no one but God would do, if they were loyal to God The Father.
1 Chromicles 29:20.
Denying the Holy Trinity is denying the veracity of Matt. 28:19 & 2 Cor. 13:14.
Naming three parties does not a Trinity make (eg Luke 9:26).

And again, the Trinity is not "God, Jesus, and the holy spirit":
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the holy spirit be with you all. (2 Corinthians 13:14)

Michael was not, is not, & never was, Jesus.
While JWs conclude that Jesus is Michael in the same way Trinitarians conclude that the Father, son, and holy spirit are "God"(--whatever they mean by "God"), such a view was actually adopted from Orthodoxy.
Jesus was resurrected into the body He died in. It was gone from the tomb, & he had the wounds from the nails & the spear after he was resurrected. Yes, that body was changed some by His power, but it was still physical & was the body He died in.
The Bible never refers to Jesus' (resurrected) body as being "physical". Instead(, at 1 Corinthians 15: 50-54), it contrasts the "physical" body with the "spiritual" body of those resurrected--even going so far as to contrast the "living soul" (first Adam) with the "life-giving spirit" (second Adam. Compare also 1 Peter 3:18).
The Holy Spirit is a Personage, part of the one Godhead, along with God The Father & God The Son. He has:
Personal pronouns are never used of "the holy spirit"--at least not in the Greek. Moreover, the holy spirit belongs to God(--which is why it is referred to as "His holy spirit" at 1 Thessalonians 4:8. Compare Isaiah 63:10, 11).

BTW, even the spirits of humans are "personified" in Scripture (eg Genesis 41:8; 1 Samuel 30:12; Daniel 5:20).
 
About blood: I see you have no reply to the FACT that a person saving another person's life is NEVER, NEVER EVIL. So, giving or receiving a blood TFX is NOT wrong.

In late 2000, my wife was almost killed in a schoolbus rollover, in which she was the monitor. Her life was saved, first, by God's will & power, and by four blood TFXs after internal bleeding. Her spleen was ruptured, & both lungs punctured, so God's power ceetainly saved her. But, has she not had the blood, she woulda died. God used His power enough so that medical science could save her. We are NOT to sit around & wait for GOD to do something WE can do ourselves. Her internal injuries were severe enough that no one would survive them without God's help, but He acted, & allowed the doctors to do the rest. Her survival, her subsequent recovery, & her mind not being altered were all part of God's miracle ! (She spent 1.5 months in ICU, unconscious, but not in a coma.)

I like to tell the story about when I had a tire blow out late at night on Rt. 23 in southern Ohio. It's a busy 4-lane highway. Yes, I prayed for God to protect me. But did I pray for God to change my wheel ? No, I got out & changed it myself. I took all precautions, such as putting out a reflective triangle & 2 fuzees, & kept an eye on the road. But did GOD do HIS part ? ABSOLUTELY ! Only one car went by, & the driver was quite-cautious. Sure, God coulda changed the wheel or even repaired the blown tire. But, as I could change it myself, I didn't ask Him.

And remember, when God was giving His word which He caused to be preserved as Scripture, blood TFXs were unknown. However, certain pagans drank blood as part of some of their rites. Others made "blood pudding".
Again, saving a human life is never evil !
1 Samuel 14:24-34.
 

robycop3

Active member
Scripture plainly says the LOF is FOREVER.

Isaiah wrote at GOD'S command, whether any NT writer followed up or not.

Jesus meant we are one body of BELIEVERS.

They prostrated themselves before the LORD & the king. It does not say they WORSHIPPED the king.

The Holy trinity is God The Father, God The Son, God The Holy Spirit. To deny that is blasphemy.

JWs SDAs, & others are wrong in saying Michael is Jesus.

Jesus' resurrected body was physical. At first, His disciples thought He was a ghost til He ate some fish & Thomas felt of His wounds with his own hands.

The Holy Spirit acted on His own, & still does. Beware in badmouthing Him lest you commit an unforgivable sin.

1 Chron. 14:24-34 does not make saving someone's life evil. Your attempts at stretching Scripture to try to fit a cult's agenda is typical.
 
Scripture plainly says the LOF is FOREVER.
And it also says "death" (which was thrown into the lake of fire) will be no more.
Isaiah wrote at GOD'S command, whether any NT writer followed up or not.
Since no NT writer applied it to Christ, how can you say it was about Christ?
Jesus meant we are one body of BELIEVERS.
IOW, it doesn't mean we are the same being, correct? (So, if that is the case, and we are one "just as they are one", their "oneness" does not mean they are the same being.)
They prostrated themselves before the LORD & the king. It does not say they WORSHIPPED the king.
1 Chronicles 29:20 (LXX):
καὶ εἶπεν Δαυιδ πάσῃ τῇ ἐκκλησίᾳ εὐλογήσατε κύριον τὸν θεὸν ὑμῶν καὶ εὐλόγησεν πᾶσα ἡ ἐκκλησία κύριον τὸν θεὸν τῶν πατέρων αὐτῶν καὶ κάμψαντες τὰ γόνατα προσεκύνησαν τῷ κυρίῳ καὶ τῷ βασιλεῗ
Compare Matthew 2:11 (GNT)
και ελθοντες εις την οικιαν ειδον το παιδιον μετα μαριας της μητρος αυτου και πεσοντες προσεκυνησαν αυτω και ανοιξαντες τους θησαυρους αυτων προσηνεγκαν αυτω δωρα χρυσον και λιβανον και σμυρναν

The Holy trinity is God The Father, God The Son, God The Holy Spirit. To deny that is blasphemy.
The Bible never mentions "God the son" or "God the holy spirit".
JWs SDAs, & others are wrong in saying Michael is Jesus.
Interesting
Jesus' resurrected body was physical. At first, His disciples thought He was a ghost til He ate some fish & Thomas felt of His wounds with his own hands.
Or, Jesus manifested a physical body (just as the angels did when visiting Abraham at Genesis 18) to prove he had risen. Despite this, Paul--when referring to the resurrected "body" refers to it as a "spiritual body" and thus refers to the second Adam as a "life-giving spirit" (1 Corinthians 15:50-54).
The Holy Spirit acted on His own, & still does. Beware in badmouthing Him lest you commit an unforgivable sin.
Like Jesus, the holy spirit does not act of its own accord.
1 Chron. 14:24-34 does not make saving someone's life evil. Your attempts at stretching Scripture to try to fit a cult's agenda is typical.
1 Samuel 14:24-34 does demonstrate that not from blood was still a sin (even when people made excuses to avoid abstaining).

(BTW, with regards to 'saving a life' never being evil, please note 1 Samuel 15:9.)
 
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robycop3

Active member
And it also says "death" (which was thrown into the lake of fire) will be no more.
So, if there's no more death, the souls in the LOF don't die.
Since no NT writer applied it to Christ, how can you say it was about Christ?
Because no one else met all the criteria God had Isaiah write.
IOW, it doesn't mean we are the same being, correct? (So, if that is the case, and we are one "just as they are one", their "oneness" does not mean they are the same being.)
Of course not. In Jesus' case, it meant He & His Father are completely alike in power and plans.
1 Chronicles 29:20 (LXX):

Compare Matthew 2:11 (GNT)
Sir, they didn't worship David. Those people knew better, & David woulda known better than to accept worship. After all, in a couple of instances, angels stopped people from worshipping them.
The Bible never mentions "God the son" or "God the holy spirit".
[/QUOTE]
It doesn't have the word "Trinity", either, but the fact of the Holy Trinity's existence is clearly implied. And the Holy Spirit performed miracles, such as making everyone present at the "first pentecost" able to understand Peter's preaching, regardless of what language they used.
I posted the Scriptures proving Michael isn't Jesus.
Or, Jesus manifested a physical body (just as the angels did when visiting Abraham at Genesis 18) to prove he had risen. Despite this, Paul--when referring to the resurrected "body" refers to it as a "spiritual body" and thus refers to the second Adam as a "life-giving spirit" (1 Corinthians 15:50-54).
His body was gone from the tomb, & His body He appeared in still bore the wounds of His crucifixion. Apparently, the wounds from the whipping he received were gone, or weren't noticed.
Like Jesus, the holy spirit does not act of its own accord.
Apparently, like Jesus did in many cases, the HS DOES act on His own. For example, His Father didn't tell Him to save the thief on the cross, or any other particular person. And the Holy Spirit bestowed the gift of tongues & healing as He chose. (And still does.)
1 Samuel 14:24-34 does demonstrate that not from blood was still a sin (even when people made excuses to avoid abstaining).
Transfusions are not eating/drinking blood. They're done for medical purposes. Again, saving lives is never evil.
(BTW, with regards to 'saving a life' never being evil, please note 1 Samuel 15:9.)

That was a specific incident, where God had commanded the Israelis to kill all the Amalekites at Auris. & Saul disobeyed.
 
So, if there's no more death, the souls in the LOF don't die.
There' no more death because death was thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14).
Because no one else met all the criteria God had Isaiah write.
Everything written by the prophets applied to someone in their day.
Of course not. In Jesus' case, it meant He & His Father are completely alike in power and plans.
If that were true, God wouldn't be Jesus' God (John 20:17).
Sir, they didn't worship David. Those people knew better, & David woulda known better than to accept worship.
Is not the same Greek word used in both texts?
After all, in a couple of instances, angels stopped people from worshipping them.
Did you not notice that it was the apostle John who did so twice--once at Revelation 19:10 and then again at Revelation 22:9?

(Shouldn't he have known better considering he was not only a Jew, but an apostle.)

It doesn't have the word "Trinity", either, but the fact of the Holy Trinity's existence is clearly implied.
Where?
And the Holy Spirit performed miracles, such as making everyone present at the "first pentecost" able to understand Peter's preaching, regardless of what language they used.
The text doesn't say the holy spirit performed any miracles, but says those in attendance were filled with the holy spirit.
I posted the Scriptures proving Michael isn't Jesus.
Where?
His body was gone from the tomb, & His body He appeared in still bore the wounds of His crucifixion. Apparently, the wounds from the whipping he received were gone, or weren't noticed.
The only time Jesus appeared with wounds was when he appeared to Didymus.
Apparently, like Jesus did in many cases, the HS DOES act on His own. For example, His Father didn't tell Him to save the thief on the cross,
Where was the holy spirit referred to in this text?
or any other particular person. And the Holy Spirit bestowed the gift of tongues & healing as He chose. (And still does.)
The holy spirit doesn't bestow anything on anyone. It is God who bestows gifts by means of His spirit (1 Corinthians 12).
Transfusions are not eating/drinking blood. They're done for medical purposes. Again, saving lives is never evil.
Just because it's for medical purposes doesn't mean it's not eating blood. (Or did you think being fed intravenously--which is the same procedure used in blood transfusions--is not "eating" because it's for medical purposes.)
That was a specific incident, where God had commanded the Israelis to kill all the Amalekites at Auris. & Saul disobed
And how is that different from God's command to abstain from blood?
 

robycop3

Active member
There' no more death because death was thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14).
My point exactly. The souls in the LOF don't die; they're in it forever.
Everything written by the prophets applied to someone in their day.
MMRRPP ! WRONG ! Jacob's deathbed prophecies for his sons didn't come to pass in that day. Ezekiel's vision of the restoration of all Israel didn't happen in that day. And jesus wasn't born in Isaiah's time.
If that were true, God wouldn't be Jesus' God (John 20:17).
Why not ?
Is not the same Greek word used in both texts?
The Old Testament was originally in Hebrew.
Did you not notice that it was the apostle John who did so twice--once at Revelation 19:10 and then again at Revelation 22:9?

(Shouldn't he have known better considering he was not only a Jew, but an apostle.)
Paul spoke against worshipping angels. Point is, only GOD is to be worshipped.
In another thread in this sub-forum, "Jesus is not Michael", in the OP of that thread.
The text doesn't say the holy spirit performed any miracles, but says those in attendance were filled with the holy spirit.
So, who else made everyone present, regardless of their languages, understand Peter's preaching ?
In the story of Jesus' baptism, where Father, Son, & Holy Spirit are all manifest, physically separate from one another.
The only time Jesus appeared with wounds was when he appeared to Didymus.
And Thomas, or Didymus, as you call him, felt of His wounds. He was the only apostle who'd still doubted it was Jesus before them.
Where was the holy spirit referred to in this text?
He isn't. What's toyr point in asking this ?
The holy spirit doesn't bestow anything on anyone. It is God who bestows gifts by means of His spirit (1 Corinthians 12).
Are you SURE ? Can you prove it ?
Just because it's for medical purposes doesn't mean it's not eating blood. (Or did you think being fed intravenously--which is the same procedure used in blood transfusions--is not "eating" because it's for medical purposes.)

And how is that different from God's command to abstain from blood?

One can hardly link an IV with eating. God's command was against EATING blood. Had He chosen to include IVs in His command, He woulda said something like "Blood is not to be taken into one's body in any manner".
 
My point exactly. The souls in the LOF don't die; they're in it forever.
That which is thrown into the lake of fire is annihilated(, which is why Death is "no more").

Or, do you believe Death still exists in the lake of fire (and thus is not really "no more")?
MMRRPP ! WRONG ! Jacob's deathbed prophecies for his sons didn't come to pass in that day.
You realize that Jacob's stated clearly "בְּאַחֲרִית הַיָּמִים" (in the last days), correct?
Ezekiel's vision of the restoration of all Israel didn't happen in that day.
Ezekiel 4:5 explains why. (Another bad example. Nice try though.)
And jesus wasn't born in Isaiah's time.
Isaiah wasn't talking about Jesus.
Why not ?
Because God has no Head (1 Corinthians 11:3).
The Old Testament was originally in Hebrew.
That doesn't help your argument, for 1 Chronicles 29:20 says in part:
וַיְבָרְכוּ כָל-הַקָּהָל, לַיהוָה אֱלֹהֵי אֲבֹתֵיהֶם, וַיִּקְּדוּ וַיִּשְׁתַּחֲווּ לַיהוָה, וְלַמֶּלֶךְ
2 Chronicles 29:29, 30 reads:
וּכְכַלּוֹת, לְהַעֲלוֹת: כָּרְעוּ, הַמֶּלֶךְ וְכָל-הַנִּמְצְאִים אִתּוֹ--וַיִּשְׁתַּחֲווּ וַיֹּאמֶר יְחִזְקִיָּהוּ הַמֶּלֶךְ וְהַשָּׂרִים, לַלְוִיִּם, לְהַלֵּל לַיהוָה, בְּדִבְרֵי דָוִיד וְאָסָף הַחֹזֶה; וַיְהַלְלוּ, עַד-לְשִׂמְחָה, וַיִּקְּדוּ, וַיִּשְׁתַּחֲווּ

Paul spoke against worshipping angels. Point is, only GOD is to be worshipped.
God is only to be "worshipped as God". (Still doesn't explain why the apostle John saw no problem with rendering PROSKUNEW to angels.)
In another thread in this sub-forum, "Jesus is not Michael", in the OP of that thread.
The scriptures you posted don't really prove that Jesus isn't Michael though. (As a matter of fact, some of the texts presented are the reason both Orthodox Christians and JWs believe Jesus is Michael.)
So, who else made everyone present, regardless of their languages, understand Peter's preaching ?
God (by pouring out His holy spirit).
In the story of Jesus' baptism, where Father, Son, & Holy Spirit are all manifest, physically separate from one another.
In Genesis 18, the "three visitors" are physically manifested as separate from one another. OTOH, even Legion--although "physically manifested as one person" was still many (Mark 5:9).
And Thomas, or Didymus, as you call him, felt of His wounds. He was the only apostle who'd still doubted it was Jesus before them.
Which is why Jesus manifested as such--so Thomas would believe Jesus was resurrected.
He isn't. What's toyr point in asking this ?
Because you stated: "the HS DOES act on His own. For example, His Father didn't tell Him to save the thief on the cross,"
Are you SURE ? Can you prove it ?
1 Corinthians 12 proves it.
One can hardly link an IV with eating.
Why not when it is called "intravenous feeding"? (Or did you not know feeding intravenously was "feeding through an IV"?)
God's command was against EATING blood. Had He chosen to include IVs in His command, He woulda said something like "Blood is not to be taken into one's body in any manner".
Why would he when he said "abstain"?

Does God need to explain "abstain" when it comes to fornication?
 

The Prophet

Active member
 

robycop3

Active member
That which is thrown into the lake of fire is annihilated(, which is why Death is "no more").

Or, do you believe Death still exists in the lake of fire (and thus is not really "no more")?
Let's let Scripture destroy your goofy idea-Rev. 14:10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
You realize that Jacob's stated clearly "בְּאַחֲרִית הַיָּמִים" (in the last days), correct?

Ezekiel 4:5 explains why. (Another bad example. Nice try though.)
The WHOLE House of Israel hasn't yet been restored; only the Jews. And they committed many more iniquities after Zeke's time.

And jesus wasn't born in Isaiah's time.

Isaiah wasn't talking about Jesus.
[/QUOTE]
No one else met the criteria Isaiah wrote down, so he most certainly WAS writing about Jesus. In ancient times, no other Israeli virgin gave birth.
Because God has no Head (1 Corinthians 11:3).
Jesus said His Father was greater than Himself. Your argument makes no sense.
That doesn't help your argument, for 1 Chronicles 29:20 says in part:

2 Chronicles 29:29, 30 reads:
So, if you wanna go on believing people worshipped David & he accepted it, take it up with God. I simply don't believe you. The people were worshipping GOD, & Dave happened to be there.
God is only to be "worshipped as God". (Still doesn't explain why the apostle John saw no problem with rendering PROSKUNEW to angels.)
Because John didn't know who he was bowing to. Angels don't appear as they're often portrayed. Remember, Scripture says men have entertained angels unaware.
The scriptures you posted don't really prove that Jesus isn't Michael though. (As a matter of fact, some of the texts presented are the reason both Orthodox Christians and JWs believe Jesus is Michael.)
Yes, they DO. Michael didn't dare revile Satan, as Jude wrote, while Jesus reviled Satan without hesitation. Michael knew he didn't have authority to do it, but Jesus' Father gave Him ALL authority.
God (by pouring out His holy spirit).
Remember, Jesus said He's SEND the HS in His place after He was gone.
In Genesis 18, the "three visitors" are physically manifested as separate from one another. OTOH, even Legion--although "physically manifested as one person" was still many (Mark 5:9).
"With GOD, ALL things are possible." Three Personages of God can still be the one Godhead. And I believe SCRIPTURE, not your wild ideas.
Which is why Jesus manifested as such--so Thomas would believe Jesus was resurrected.
He was resurrected into the body He died in, albeit with some changes.
Because you stated: "the HS DOES act on His own. For example, His Father didn't tell Him to save the thief on the cross,"

1 Corinthians 12 proves it.
Yes, 1 Cor. 12 proves what I said. 'Tis the HS who bestows the gifts as He chooses.
Why not when it is called "intravenous feeding"? (Or did you not know feeding intravenously was "feeding through an IV"?)

Why would he when he said "abstain"?

Does God need to explain "abstain" when it comes to fornication?

How silly ! Fornication was then known, of course !

Now, you make what you want outta 'abstain', to try to justivy that goofy JW cult, & I hope it never happens to you, but feel free to die, or watch a loved one die from lacka blood, when a simple blood TFX woulda sayed you or your loved one.

Do my wife or I feel we sinned by my letting her receive TFXs? CERTAINLY NOT ! They saved her life ! And God continued to heal her after he saved hewr life.

Again, feel free to believe a false doctrine if it flips your trigger.
 
Let's let Scripture destroy your goofy idea-Rev. 14:10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
Let me get this straight: You're taking figurative language (eg, "he shall drink of the wine of God's wrath..." ect) as literal?

That means you believe that everyone is given eternal life(. Thus, there is no need to fear "the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna".)
The WHOLE House of Israel hasn't yet been restored; only the Jews. And they committed many more iniquities after Zeke's time.
You do realize "the Jews" are the whole house of Israel, correct?

No one else met the criteria Isaiah wrote down, so he most certainly WAS writing about Jesus. In ancient times, no other Israeli virgin gave birth.
Although the word translated "virgin" doesn't necessarily refer to a virgin, there was a child born as a sign to Ahaz:

“Ask for a sign for yourself from YHWH God; make it deep as Sheol or make it high as above.” But Ahaz said, “I will not ask, and I will not put YHWH to the test.”
Then he said, “Hear, house of David! Is it too little for you to make men weary, that you should also make my God weary? Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Look! the young maiden is with child and she is about to give birth to a son, and she shall call his name ‘Immanuel.’ He shall eat curds and honey until he knows to reject the evil and to choose the good. For before the boy knows to reject the evil and to choose the good, the land whose two kings you dread will be abandoned." (Isaiah 7:11-16)

Jesus said His Father was greater than Himself. Your argument makes no sense.
Only if one does not understand that God cannot have a God (since He has no head).
So, if you wanna go on believing people worshipped David & he accepted it, take it up with God. I simply don't believe you. The people were worshipping GOD, & Dave happened to be there.
That's not what the text says. It says they "worshipped YHWH and the king".
Because John didn't know who he was bowing to. Angels don't appear as they're often portrayed. Remember, Scripture says men have entertained angels unaware.
Interesting, for John himself states:
I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things (Revelation 22:8)
Yes, they DO. Michael didn't dare revile Satan, as Jude wrote, while Jesus reviled Satan without hesitation. Michael knew he didn't have authority to do it, but Jesus' Father gave Him ALL authority.
Jude 9 states that Michael "did not bring a blasphemous judgement against him" (ουκ ετολμησεν κρισιν επενεγκειν βλασφημιας).

Neither did Jesus.
Remember, Jesus said He's SEND the HS in His place after He was gone.
John 14:26.
"With GOD, ALL things are possible." Three Personages of God can still be the one Godhead. And I believe SCRIPTURE, not your wild ideas.
Scripture doesn't say anything about "three personages of God", nor does use "Godhead" in the way that Trinitarians use it.
He was resurrected into the body He died in, albeit with some changes.
Yes--it changed from flesh to spirit (1 Peter 3:18).
Yes, 1 Cor. 12 proves what I said. 'Tis the HS who bestows the gifts as He chooses.
The "He" in that text is God (as He is the One who bestows the gifts to whom He chooses to through His spirit).
How silly ! Fornication was then known, of course !
So was blood.

[It sounds like you're saying God didn't know of blood or blood transfusions(, thus, "abstaining from blood" couldn't refer to blood transfusions).]
Now, you make what you want outta 'abstain', to try to justivy that goofy JW cult, & I hope it never happens to you, but feel free to die, or watch a loved one die from lacka blood, when a simple blood TFX woulda sayed you or your loved one. Do my wife or I feel we sinned by my letting her receive TFXs? CERTAINLY NOT ! They saved her life ! And God continued to heal her after he saved hewr life. Again, feel free to believe a false doctrine if it flips your trigger.
I can only do what God says, and He says "abstain" (ἀπέχεσθαι).

How you choose to interpret "abstain" is between you and God.
 

robycop3

Active member
Let me get this straight: You're taking figurative language (eg, "he shall drink of the wine of God's wrath..." ect) as literal?
There can be both literal & figurative speech in the same sentence. WQe do it ourselves all the time. And eternity in the LOF is literal for those who will go there.
That means you believe that everyone is given eternal life(. Thus, there is no need to fear "the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna".)
I know what the Scripture I quoted says. You may choose to disbelieve it. That's between you & GOD.
You do realize "the Jews" are the whole house of Israel, correct?
No, the Jews are only the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, & Levi. The other Israelis aren't jews.
Although the word translated "virgin" doesn't necessarily refer to a virgin, there was a child born as a sign to Ahaz:
Where did you get THAT goofy idea ?
Only if one does not understand that God cannot have a God (since He has no head).
So, you deny the Divinity of Jesus & the Holy Spirit ?
That's not what the text says. It says they "worshipped YHWH and the king".
Had Dave knowingly accepted worship, God woulda punished him severely, perhaps even killed him.
Interesting, for John himself states:
Again, John might not have known this was an angel before be began to worship.
Jude 9 states that Michael "did not bring a blasphemous judgement against him" (ουκ ετολμησεν κρισιν επενεγκειν βλασφημιας).
It's translated as "a railing accusation" or similar.
Jesus called Satan a liar, father of lies, & a murderer.
And He DID send the HS.
Scripture doesn't say anything about "three personages of God", nor does use "Godhead" in the way that Trinitarians use it.
But the implication is clear.
Yes--it changed from flesh to spirit (1 Peter 3:18).
But it was the same body, complete with scars.
The "He" in that text is God (as He is the One who bestows the gifts to whom He chooses to through His spirit).
Guesswork.
But not transfusions.
[It sounds like you're saying God didn't know of blood or blood transfusions(, thus, "abstaining from blood" couldn't refer to blood transfusions).]

I can only do what God says, and He says "abstain" (ἀπέχεσθαι).

How you choose to interpret "abstain" is between you and God.
As I said, I hope you never hafta choose between a blood TFX or letting yourself or a loved one die. And if you do, I hope you choose LIFE.
 
There can be both literal & figurative speech in the same sentence. WQe do it ourselves all the time. And eternity in the LOF is literal for those who will go there.
Interesting, seeing that literal fire wouldn't be able to hurt "the devil, the beast, and the false prophet" of Revelation 20:9, nor "Death and Hades" at Revelation 20:14.

(Now, maybe these will be under genjutsu...)
I know what the Scripture I quoted says. You may choose to disbelieve it. That's between you & GOD.
Scripture never states that the disobedient will have "eternal life". (However, "eternal life" is required to experience literal 'eternal torment'.)
No, the Jews are only the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, & Levi. The other Israelis aren't jews.
Actually, “Jew” (Yehudi) was popularized in the era of the Persian exile, at which point all the remaining Israelites(--even those not from the tribe of Judah) were known as Jews.
Where did you get THAT goofy idea ?
Which part are you referring to as "goofy":
1) the part that the child was a sign to Ahaz (as stated at Isaiah 7:10), or
2) the fact that the Hebrew ALMAH/Greek PARQENOS does not necessarily refer to a "virgin" (Isaiah 7:14)
So, you deny the Divinity of Jesus & the Holy Spirit ?
Neither confirming or denying the "divinity of Jesus & the holy spirit" addresses the fact that God has no Head (1 Corinthians 11:3).
Had Dave knowingly accepted worship, God woulda punished him severely, perhaps even killed him.
And yet, the text states he--along with YHWH--receives PROSKUNEW/SHACHAH ("worship") without any dire consequences at 1 Chronicles 29:20.
Again, John might not have known this was an angel before be began to worship.
There's nothing in the text that shows he didn't know--especially considering that John states that it was.
It's translated as "a railing accusation" or similar.
βλασφημιας is "blasphemy".
Jesus called Satan a liar, father of lies, & a murderer.
And how is that βλασφημιας (blasphemy)?
And He DID send the HS.
So, you agree the holy spirit was that which Jesus promised "the Father will send in my name"(, so was not sent by Jesus), correct?
But the implication is clear.
Yes...clearly unclear.
But it was the same body, complete with scars.
And yet, "some doubted" (Matthew 28:17).

Guesswork.
Or, simple reading comprehension.
But not transfusions.
That would make sense if one were transfusing anything other than blood. However, since the Bible says "abstain from blood", one cannot exclude transfusions of blood (and then say "I'm abstaining").
As I said, I hope you never hafta choose between a blood TFX or letting yourself or a loved one die. And if you do, I hope you choose LIFE.
"Obedience is better than sacrifice" (1 Samuel 15:22).
 

robycop3

Active member
Interesting, seeing that literal fire wouldn't be able to hurt "the devil, the beast, and the false prophet" of Revelation 20:9, nor "Death and Hades" at Revelation 20:14.

(Now, maybe these will be under genjutsu...)
We don't know how vulnerable God may make the inhabitants of the LOF. We see from Jesus' parable that the souls now in the 'torments' area of hades are in anguish in flames.
Scripture never states that the disobedient will have "eternal life". (However, "eternal life" is required to experience literal 'eternal torment'.)
Speax for itself. Scripture says their torment lasts FOREVER.
Actually, “Jew” (Yehudi) was popularized in the era of the Persian exile, at which point all the remaining Israelites(--even those not from the tribe of Judah) were known as Jews.
Known as such by some MEN, not GOD. There's not one Scripture that says "a Jew from the tribe of Dan", etc.
Which part are you referring to as "goofy":
1) the part that the child was a sign to Ahaz (as stated at Isaiah 7:10), or
2) the fact that the Hebrew ALMAH/Greek PARQENOS does not necessarily refer to a "virgin" (Isaiah 7:14)
Seems I goofed. The child of Isaiah 7 was Josiah, but the child of Isaiah 9 & 53 is Jesus.
Neither confirming or denying the "divinity of Jesus & the holy spirit" addresses the fact that God has no Head (1 Corinthians 11:3).
So, in your opinion, are Jesus & the Holy Spirit Divine ? (In mine, they ARE.)
And yet, the text states he--along with YHWH--receives PROSKUNEW/SHACHAH ("worship") without any dire consequences at 1 Chronicles 29:20.
If it was worship of Dave & Dave knew it was, God would NOT have let it go unpunished.
There's nothing in the text that shows he didn't know--especially considering that John states that it was.
nOTHING THAT SHOWS HE did, EITHER.
βλασφημιας is "blasphemy".

And how is that βλασφημιας (blasphemy)?
"Blasphemy" is reviling, or showing contempt or irreverence. While usually applied to badmouthing GOD, it can mean badmouthing or "cussing" another person. And certainly, jesus had some bad things to say about Satan. (All are true, of course.) But Michael dared not do it.
So, you agree the holy spirit was that which Jesus promised "the Father will send in my name"(, so was not sent by Jesus), correct?

Yes...clearly unclear.
You simply don't wanna believe something against your cult's doctrines.
And yet, "some doubted" (Matthew 28:17).
The main doubter was Thomas, til he felt the scars.
Or, simple reading comprehension.
Not in THIS case.
That would make sense if one were transfusing anything other than blood. However, since the Bible says "abstain from blood", one cannot exclude transfusions of blood (and then say "I'm abstaining").

"Obedience is better than sacrifice" (1 Samuel 15:22).
I'm just glad I'm not under your thumb, & I'm not in a position where any JW cult member has any power of attorney over me. I really hope you don't hafta make that choice for yourself or a loved one, but I hope you choose LIFE. I believe one should allow whatever modern medicine has to offer to save a loved one's life.

Thankfully, in the USA, courts won't allow a child to die because of a parent's or guardian's false religious belief, and when a child has no parent or guardien immediately available, a hospital will do whatever it takes within its capability to save a child's life.
 
We don't know how vulnerable God may make the inhabitants of the LOF. We see from Jesus' parable that the souls now in the 'torments' area of hades are in anguish in flames.
Luke 16 makes it even more obvious the lake of fire is figurative, for if there are people experiencing torment in Hades, they've already been judged. (Thus, there's no need for judgement at Revelation 20:10-13. Nor is there no real purpose for the lake of fire). Still, Hades(--a place of "Paradise" and 'torment' per your understanding) is being thrown into the lake of fire according to Revelation 20:14.
Speax for itself. Scripture says their torment lasts FOREVER.
Of course. However, this is figurative(--not literal) language.
Known as such by some MEN, not GOD. There's not one Scripture that says "a Jew from the tribe of Dan", etc.
Acts 21:39; Romans 11:1
Seems I goofed. The child of Isaiah 7 was Josiah, but the child of Isaiah 9 & 53 is Jesus.
Again, Isaiah 9:6 is never applied to Christ, & there's no child at Isaiah 53.
So, in your opinion, are Jesus & the Holy Spirit Divine ? (In mine, they ARE.)
Jesus is divine. (Being divine doesn't make you God, however.)
If it was worship of Dave & Dave knew it was, God would NOT have let it go unpunished.
Or, the words translated "worship" are not used exclusively of God.
nOTHING THAT SHOWS HE did, EITHER.
Except for the fact that John identifies him as one.
"Blasphemy" is reviling, or showing contempt or irreverence. While usually applied to badmouthing GOD, it can mean badmouthing or "cussing" another person. And certainly, jesus had some bad things to say about Satan. (All are true, of course.) But Michael dared not do it.
That's not what blasphemy is. Blasphemy is any type of slander against another.
You simply don't wanna believe something against your cult's doctrines.
Or, I don't believe what's not clearly taught in Scripture.
The main doubter was Thomas, til he felt the scars.
Not in Matthew 28.
Not in THIS case.
Or more accurately--not in your case.
I'm just glad I'm not under your thumb, & I'm not in a position where any JW cult member has any power of attorney over me. I really hope you don't hafta make that choice for yourself or a loved one, but I hope you choose LIFE. I believe one should allow whatever modern medicine has to offer to save a loved one's life.
You're entitled to believe whatever you like.
Thankfully, in the USA, courts won't allow a child to die because of a parent's or guardian's false religious belief, and when a child has no parent or guardien immediately available, a hospital will do whatever it takes within its capability to save a child's life.
If you wish to call "abstaining from blood" a false belief, agaiin, you're entitled to your opinion.
 
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