Good morning.
No worries. Thank you.
https://ia802903.us.archive.org/3/items/manualofchristia01fish/manualofchristia01fish_bw.pdf
I'm not saying they "cannot" be true, but that (obviously) if Fisher's case rests on presuppositions, his case is only as strong as those presuppositions are. The one I challenged here -- that the Christian system was of such "intrinsic excellence" that it could not have been been produced by mere human efforts -- would be challenged, not only by cynical materialists, but by all devout theists who weren't Christian. It would even be challenged by some Christians, who have said that Christianity may seem absurd, but must be accepted on faith.
IF they rest on presuppositions.
Here's the problem with
your presupposition......
We who follow Jesus..... we're not given the luxury of presupposing.
The bible is really clear---- test all things. Abhor that which is evil, and cling to that which is good. 1 Thessalonians 5:21-22.
Jesus said in John 7:17--- those who do his teachings can know for themselves whether he's speaking on his own authority, or God's.
Jesus tells us in Matthew 7, that those who do his teachings will be like a wise man who built his home on a rock, and when life happens-- it'll stand, because he built it on a solid foundation. But those who do not do his teachings will be like a foolish man, who built his house on a foundation of sand. And when the storms of life come, his home will collapse because he built it on a poor foundation, and that collapse will be great.
We then read from James, Jesus' half brother, that we're to be doers, and not hearers only.
So, the point here is that it's not people who just hear, and don't do who who have a good understanding. They're the presuppositionalists.
The people who are actually doers--- they see the conflicts, where assumptions fail, and truth meets the rubber on the road.
We don't blindly, and blythely "accept" it. We've come to learn that Jesus is right. That when the sh88 hits the fan, and life goes sideways, he's there, with us, in the midst of the madness, chaos, pain, grief, sorrows, giving us more than just some blind hope. He himself IS our HOPE.
Our faith doesn't just sit on a chair. It is built on the God who spoke the cosmos into existence, and walks with us throughout our lives.
If you believe the Christian system is of such excellence it can only be of supernatural origin, how can you not believe that Christianity is true? So Fisher's argument is essentially circular: "I will argue that Christianity is true; but first, let us assume that Christianity is true."
We believe, because we've learned to do as Jesus said. We've learned to do as Paul, Jude, James, John, Peter, the prophets, Moses, and the other writers have said.
We've taken the time to learn, to apply, and in learning and applying, we've come to see that these things are true.
Not because they're conveniently, blythely, and blindly "accepted" as truth. But because each time we do what they say, and get the results of what they said, we come to realize that they're correct. So, we dig deeper, ask God himself more questions, and he shows us, in real life means, that this book, collection of books called the bible, which literally means--- the book--- we live out more, and see firsthand---- Biblical Christianity is in fact THE Truth. Jesus himself is THE Truth, just as he stated in John 14:6.
No, because "all descendants of Adam will be born with a sin nature, making it impossible for them to avoid damnation without God's assistance" is not a logically necessary consequence of "Adam disobeyed God."
Actually, it is.
You inherited your father's nature, his attributes, his biological characteristics. Some of your mother's too.
We were designed to inherit them. Sadly, this means we inherit the sin nature, which is nothing more than a dead spirit.
Adam was created as a living soul. Genesis 2:7.
When he ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he killed that living soul. The part of him that interacted with God, so freely, died that day, and like a plant uprooted from the ground, the death of his body followed.
It wasn't immediate, because God intervened, and provided a measure of covering, and a promise of redemption from death, and sin. But the consequence of being separated from God was immediate.
It's most obviously noted in the two sons--- Cain, and Abel.
Abel appears to have gotten it, and continued to offer animals to God. But Cain.... he decided to start his own religion, and tried offering the works of his hands. God called him on it, and warned him of the consequences/benefits. Cain ignored God, and in his attempt to start his own religion, killed his brother to silence the conflict.
So..... what we inherited from Adam was the dead soul. Separated from God, spiritually dead in sin and trespass (Romans 5, Ephesians 2:1). Cut off, isolated. Jesus deals with this, in dying in our place. But he did not stay dead. God raised him from the dead, to seal the success of Jesus' death, to overcome death, once and for all (Romans 4). As sin causes death, so the obedience of Jesus brings life, and by placing our trust in Jesus, we are made right with God, given a new heart, a new spirit, and God's own Spirit comes to dwell in us, giving us life where we once only knew death. This is the new birth Jesus spoke of, and is detailed in Ezekiel 36:25-27, as well as in Romans 5-8.
If I say "I don't agree with that proposition" and you give me some good reason why I actually should agree with that proposition, I'll listen. If I say "I don't agree with that proposition" and you tell me "you must be biased and closed-minded," why should I listen? (Unless I knew you to be a good judge of such things.)
Come to Jesus for yourself and find out. You're not being asked to blindly accept something without evidence from God.
We're being asked to engage him, on his terms, and he'll engage us.
This is an inner, spiritual regeneration that takes place. and it's not without merit, or validity.
The transformation is deep, and abiding, and requires a change in perspective to learn the truth.
Jesus said--- if you continue in my teachings, you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.
ETA: I'll have to figure out how to split quotes; it's not as easy as in the old system.
I don't know which browser you're using, or if you're doing this on your tablet/smartphone, but in Firefox, on a computer, and on android galaxy, we no longer have to put in the old html block quote format. [ ...... ] [/ ....... ]
The forum's built in software handles that part for us. Although, noticing that you did a double quoting, I'm going to have to see how this works once I click post reply. I may end up with the same, even though I didn't add secondary quoting. ok. looks good.
