Mormonism and the council of "gods" in Ps. 82, by Matt Slick

Bonnie

Well-known member
Matt debated with a Mormon named Larry on this Psalm, awhile back. I am going to put some of it down on here, for our edification and discussion. I won't put the entire discussion down here, as the first part is about how long Matt had been doing this, his education, etc. But I will put down the pertinent parts, broken up into several posts, since we are limited to 10,000 characters per post.


Matt: But, it all comes down to this.
Matt: What does the Bible SAY? It says that God is not a man from another planet, etc. Mormonism is still wrong
Larry: Actually...its says nothing
Matt: Yes it does.
Larry: Especially considering the worldview of the Israelites.
Matt: It says "from everlasting to everlasting, though art God," (Psalm 90:2). That means that God was never a man.
Larry: Not so.
Matt: Yes, so.
Larry: The Israelite worldview had a different view of time.
Matt: So, everlasting doesn't mean everlasting?
Larry: The word translated 'everlasting' did NOT mean a limitless time. But rather an indefinite period of time
Matt: So it really means that God had a beginning as a man on another planet?
Larry: I didn't say that. I just said it says NOTHING. Try listening.
Matt: So, when God says that there were NO gods formed before Him and there will be none formed after Him (Isaiah 43:10), what does that really mean?
Larry: Creation of idols. False gods.
Matt: I see, so there were no idol gods created before God and there will be no idol gods created after God?
Larry: Try studying up on Israelite views of time and space.
Matt: Can you just answer my last question? So there were no idol gods created before God and there will be no idol gods created after God?
Larry: Sorry. I should rephrase what I said. It's by way of commandment to the Israelites.

Here Matt reminds Larry that people created idol gods after God....sow how could Is. 43 be referring to idols?

Matt: So, when God says in Isaiah 44:6 that there is NO God besides HIM, what does that really mean? Remember, God says He doesn't even KNOW of any other gods (Isaiah 44:8).
Larry: It's referring to his position in the council.
Matt: It is? Where does it say that? Can you show me in the Bible where it is referring to the council of Gods?
Larry: Yup. Psalm 82. Mentions the gathering of the elyon. Amos 3:7. There are others as well. I don't remember all of the references.
Matt: Hold on. First of all, Psalm 82 doesn't say there are other gods or a council of Gods. Amos 3:7 simply says, "Surely the Lord God does nothing unless He reveals His secret counsel to His servants the prophets." [It is great having a computer Bible program for posting verses]
Larry: Psalm 82:1, Yes, the congregation. But what is the congregation? a congregation of Gods? Assembly of the elyon (mighty gods)
Matt: If that were the case, then why would God say he didn't even KNOW of any other Gods (Isaiah 44:8)? The word there is not elyon, but elohim and it has several meanings: Gods, judges, angels, etc., depending on context. Nevertheless, God says he doesn't even KNOW of any other gods (Isaiah 44:8). If there is a council of gods (reminds me of Greek mythology), then why does God say He doesn't even know of any others?

Here Matt has Larry backed into a corner....IF God Himself knows of no other Gods, then why doesn't He know about the "gods" in Ps. 82? Did God have a lapse of memory, when He inspired Isaiah to write what He did in Is. 44? Which came AFTER Ps. 82?

Larry: Whoops. Council of el. Judging among the elohim. Literally 'gods.'
Matt: Ok, it is el there and it can mean "god, god-like one, mighty one, 1a) mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes; 1b) angels; 1c) god, false god, (demons, imaginations); 1d) God, the one true God, Jehovah; 2) mighty things in nature; 3) strength, power," (Enhanced Strong's Lexicon, Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1995.)

Matt shows that the word "el" can have several meanings and the true interpretation depends upon the immediate, God-given context and according to what the entire Biblical witness shows us.
 

Bonnie

Well-known member
Part II with Matt and Larry on Ps. 82:

Larry: Just like I only have one dad, one president.
Matt: Again, I ask you. God says He doesn't even KNOW of any other gods (Isaiah 44:8). If there is a council of gods then why does God say He doesn't even know of any others? If there is a council of Gods, then God would know about it, don't you think? But He says He doesn't even KNOW of any other gods. Deut. 4:35, "To you it was shown that you might know that the Lord, He is God; there is no other besides Him." 1 Sam. 2:2, "There is no one holy like the Lord, Indeed, there is no one besides Thee, Nor is there any rock like our God."
Larry: You don't listen. You don't study. You just blah blah blah blah.
Matt: Yes, I do listen and I do study. I have repeatedly asked you a question that you have not answered.
Larry: I HAVE ANSWERED IT
Matt: God says he doesn't even KNOW of any other gods (Isaiah 44:8). If there is a council of gods then why does God say He doesn't even know of any others?
Larry: Do you know what the documentary hypothesis is?
Matt: Yes, it is the Graf-Welhausen theory, also known as JEDP. http://www.carm.org/Bible/jedp_a.htm.
Larry: Ok. So you understand that different theological views are present in the Bible? Just like I only have one dad. One President.
Matt: That isn't an answer to my question. Where is your answer to God saying that He does not even KNOW of any other Gods? Also, I reject the JEDP theory, http://www.carm.org/Bible/jedp_b.htm.
Larry: That's too bad.
Matt: Please answer the question I asked about Isaiah 44:8.
Larry: Ok. Here it is again.
Larry: Now as I answer it. please refrain from blahing the same thing over and over and over again. In light of the acknowledgement of other actual 'gods' throughout the OT....Yahweh is saying that there is no other god of worship. He is their god. Just as I only have one father, Israel had only one god. My dad knows of no other 'Larry's dad'.
Matt: There are no other actual gods in the OT. If there were, why would God say that He alone is God (Isaiah 45:5), that there was no God formed before Him (Isaiah 43:10), and that He doesn't even KNOW of any other gods (Isaiah 44:8)?

Okay, Larry here does attempt to answer Is. 44, by saying God means there is no other god OF WORSHIP. But where does God say that He knows of no other god OF WORSHIP? Isn't God the God of Gentiles as well as the Jews? Paul says so!

Larry: See...there you go again.
Matt: The Bible acknowledges those that are CALLED gods (1 Cor. 8:5) that are not, by nature, gods at all (Gal. 4:8). How is saying that you have one dad and one president an answer to my question about Isaiah 44:8 where God says that He doesn't even know of any other gods, when I ask you how God could say that if there was a council of gods around?
Do you mind if I put this dialogue on CARM as well?
Larry: Nearly every scholar of the Hebrew scriptures acknowledges the existence of other actual 'gods' in the texts.
Matt: I don't buy that for a second.
Larry: Do some studying.
Matt: You make profound statements that cannot be verified.
Larry: They can.
Matt: I have done my studies. I have a Masters of Divinity from a graduate level seminary
Larry: Then you should know.
Matt: I know about the liberal "scholars" but I also know what the Bible actually SAYS and you still have not answered my question. AND... again, I want to put this dialogue on CARM, do I have your permission to do so?
Larry: Go right ahead.
Matt: Thanks
Larry: No...you know what you INTERPRET the Bible to say. And when the Bible acknowledges the existence of other actual 'gods' I believe that too.
Matt: When God says He doesn't know of any other gods, then I conclude that God doesn't know of any other gods. When God says that there were no gods formed before Him and there will be none formed after Him, then I conclude that there were no gods formed before Him and there will be none formed after Him.
Larry: If you don't want to believe the whole of the Bible...that's cool. Believe what you want.
Matt: How am I interpreting the Bible apart from what it actually says? I believe what the Bible says.
Larry: No you don't
Larry: You need to believe the Bible dude.
Matt: I am not believing in a host of gods, a goddess wife, etc. You are.
Larry: Why don't you believe in the Bible?
Matt: Why don't YOU believe the Bible?
Larry: I do...you don't believe in the Bible.
Matt: Well, there you have it. You will not repent due to your Mormon presuppositions.
Larry: I repent all of the time.
Matt: You add into God's word a host of gods and believe in what Smith told you.
Larry: No. I believe what God has told me.
Matt: I will trust what God says in Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8.

Here we have Larry saying he believes the Bible, just as Mormons on here claim. But does Larry REALLY? OR is his boast as empty as the one Mormons make on here?

 
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Bonnie

Well-known member
Part III:

Larry: And will trust in what god said in ALL of the Bible.
Matt: That is what I do. But, I don't have to change its meaning to get it to agree with what my church teaches.
Larry: If you wanna pick out verses and only believe those.. that's cool...that's your choice. You should believe all of the Bible though. It's god's words
Matt: I believe what it says.
Larry: You should also believe in Jesus
Matt: I am not trusting in a god from another planet who has a goddess wife and is about six feet tall, as Mormonism teaches.
Larry: Then don't.
Matt: I believe in Jesus, not the Mormon Jesus who is the brother of the devil begotten through relations between god and his goddess wife who both used to be people on another world.
Larry: Many early Christians believed that Jesus and Satan were brothers. But oh well. We could argue all these things all day long.
Matt: You mean Christians used to believe that they were LITERAL brothers?
Larry: Literally spirit brothers.

Of course, early Christians taught NO SUCH THING. Since when did any true Christian EVER believe that Jesus and Satan were literally spirit brothers??? That would put the devil on par with Jesus ontologically speaking! But the devil is a fallen created angel and Jesus is the UNcreated Word of God, who IS God!

Matt was wrong in one thing--the LDS church never taught that God was 6 feet tall on another planet. Smith speculated that people 6 feet tall lived on the moon, but it was never taught in his church.

Matt: If they were literal brothers, then who was there mother and father?
Larry: Just like you and I are brothers.
Matt: We are not brothers.
Larry: God the father was Jesus' father.
Matt: You mean the LITERAL father?

Notice that Larry really doesn't answer Matt's question here. But to go on:

Larry: Paul said we were all the offspring of god, saints and gentiles. Look.. neither of us is going to sway the other. You are set in your ways. And I am open to all truth.
Matt: Gal. 3:29, "And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abrahams offspring, heirs according to promise." And, I am set on following the real Jesus, not the brother of the devil.

Literally, here, it says we are Abraham's seed, but of course that is metaphorical, since we are not little seeds one plants in the ground, so the word actually refers to children or offspring.

Larry: Do you deny that Paul said that we were all the offspring of god? Both saints and gentiles?
Matt: Show me the verse so I might look at it in context. As I showed you, Paul said we are Abraham's offspring. So, he is using that term in a representative sense. Since Abraham is not my literal father.

This is a valid point. IF we are NOT Abe's LITERAL OFFSPRING, but his metaphorical children, by believing in God's promises as he did, then why cannot we be GOD'S metaphorical children, by adoption TO Him THROUGH faith in Christ Jesus our Lord? Why must offspring be taken literally, in this context, in Acts 17?

Larry: Just a sec.
Matt: Let me help you out. Acts 17:29, "Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and mans device." [I did a search on my Bible program, found it, and inserted it here.] Paul is referring to non Biblical poets and simply using their metaphor as an example to them so that they might receive the gospel. He is not saying that we are the LITERAL offspring of God.
Larry: Paul said we are his offspring.
Matt: And Paul was referencing Aratus, a Greek poet.
Larry: But I guess you decide for Paul what he meant to be figurative or literal.
Matt: And Paul also says in Gal. 3:29 that we are the offspring of Abraham.
Larry: Ok
Matt: Are you going to tell me that we are the literal offspring of Abraham, now?
Matt: Or does Paul use the term figuratively? Acts 17:28 is where Paul references Aratus the Greek poet, THEN v. 29 he says we are the offspring of God as Aratus said. He is using a tool, something they are familiar with.

Larry: I believe that through conversion we become a part of Abraham's posterity. Not only that...but why does Paul use such a tool? To teach them that we are the same 'genos' as god.
Matt: So, if it means that we are Abraham's posterity, then it doesn't mean we are his offspring...as Paul SAID, right? Or are you now picking and choosing what the word means? Rom. 8 is where Paul teaches that we are the children of God by adoption.

Now Matt is bringing in the "adoption to God" verse from Romans 8. There are others besides this, but this one seems to be enough to fluster Larry, since he starts backing off. Perhaps fulfilling what Markk talked about in that OP I had of what Markk said about Mormon "apologetics."

Larry: Look...as I said before...neither of us is going to sway the other. I really don't care to argue.
Matt: I have answered you at every point.
Larry: I've gone over all this stuff with a bunch of people over and over and over.
Matt: And you are still a Mormon? wow.
Larry: Yeah
Matt: You really WANT to believe it, don't you? That is the issue, and until you find the real Jesus, you'll never know what the truth is.
Larry: I believe I have. You believe I haven't.
Matt: I know you haven't. I know I have.
Larry: Good for you
Matt: My testimony of this is extremely strong.
Larry: Same for me. Of course. you will deny that.
Matt: Yes, of course.
Larry: Or say it is from Satan and all that prideful blah blah blah.
Matt: Yes, again. Except it is not pride, it is truth. God says He knows of no other gods (Isaiah 44:8). I believe He doesn't.
Larry: You've met Dan Petersen haven't you? And you shut him down...didn't you?
Matt: I did not debate him....if it is who I think it is.
Larry: I don't think you'd dare.
Matt: Oh yes I would.
Larry: LOL
Matt: I'd debate him anytime.
Larry: I'd love to see that.
Matt: Me too. Contact him. Arrange it. I'll be there. I'd be glad to debate him. Anyway, look, I have to go.
Larry: Bye

I wonder when this exchange took place....or if Matt ever debated this Dan Petersen. I think the latter is an expert on Islam in the Mormon church. That is what I found out in a cursory glance on Google. I would love to see Matt debate Dan.
 
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Bonnie

Well-known member
Something from a commentary we have on Ps. 82. I came to my own conclusions about it, which I have asserted here many times, but this short commentary does help explain things. I especially wondered at the shaken foundation part.

People's Commentary on Psalms II by Dr. John F. Bing, a pastor and college professor at Wisconsin Lutheran Seminary in Mequon, Wisconsin. He may be retired now:

Although the people of Israel as a whole were not guiltless, a great deal of the blame for the sad outcome of Israel's history falls on its corrupt rulers. They not only failed to provide good spiritual leadership for the people; they also exploited and oppressed the people in order to satisfy their own greed. The Prophets Hosea, Amos, Isaiah, and Micah all sharply condemned such sins of the ruling class of Israel. Psalm 82 calls for judgment upon the corrupt rulers of Israel and upon all other rulers who abuse the truth God has given them.

The rulers are called "gods" because they were God's representatives who had received their power from Him. Jesus refers to this psalm in John 10:34 when He is arguing with the leaders of the Jew because they were angry that he called Himself the Son of God. Jesus' point in quoting Psalm 82 was this: IF Scripture called God's earthly representatives "gods" (and every word of Scripture is inspired by God), why should the Jews be upset if God's TRUE Son from heaven, His greatest representative to the human race, called Himself the "Son of God"?

The God-given responsibility of rulers is to punish the guilty and protect the good. Alll too often the rulers of Israel were doing just the opposite. When rulers ignore even the natural knowledge of God's law and lead their people into moral darkness, they destroy the very foundations of society. Rulers who so shamefully abuse the trust which God has given them will be judged most severely. Like the rulers of Israel, the rulers of our ay who persecute the innocent and who tolerate such sins as immorality and abortion will have to answer to God for their negligence.

PP. 46-47.

I might also point out that I think Jesus was also calling the Pharisees unjust judges, by quoting this Psalm to them, since they did not judge Him righteously or with wisdom. They didn't balk at human leaders having the label of "god" so why should they want to stone Him for blasphemy, when He PROVED Who He said HE is--the Son of God--by the mighty works He had done among them? Which some thought came from the devil?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
A few points:

People's Commentary on Psalms II by Dr. John F. Bing, a pastor and college professor at Wisconsin Lutheran Seminary in Mequon, Wisconsin. He may be retired now:

The rulers are called "gods" because they were God's representatives who had received their power from Him. Jesus refers to this psalm in John 10:34 when He is arguing with the leaders of the Jew because they were angry that he called Himself the Son of God. Jesus' point in quoting Psalm 82 was this: IF Scripture called God's earthly representatives "gods" (and every word of Scripture is inspired by God), why should the Jews be upset if God's TRUE Son from heaven, His greatest representative to the human race, called Himself the "Son of God"?

Bing writes:

"The rulers are called 'gods' because they were God's representatives who had received their power from Him."

I would quibble, and rather say that they received their "authority" from Him, not their actual "power".

Maybe that's because I've spent a lot of time in apologetics, and I know how people can twist words and meanings, and how precise one has to be with their words.

PP. 46-47.

I might also point out that I think Jesus was also calling the Pharisees unjust judges, by quoting this Psalm to them, since they did not judge Him righteously or with wisdom. They didn't balk at human leaders having the label of "god" so why should they want to stone Him for blasphemy, when He PROVED Who He said HE is--the Son of God--by the mighty works He had done among them? Which some thought came from the devil?

Yes, that is certainly part of it.

But I think another important part of it was that He wasn't so much defending His deity to them, but rebuking them. Ps. 82 is an imprecatory Psalm, and the Jews KNEW that it was an imprecatory Psalm. And Jesus was applying this Psalm to them, condemning them in the process.
 

brotherofJared

Active member
From my point of view, it appears that Matt does the same things you do and misdirects and makes points that have nothing to do with Ps 82. We are not talking about where God came from or whether God was born on some other planet. That is a completely different discussion. Ps 82 says there are other gods. That is the argument, the rest of it is superfluous.
 

Bonnie

Well-known member
A few points:



Bing writes:

"The rulers are called 'gods' because they were God's representatives who had received their power from Him."

I would quibble, and rather say that they received their "authority" from Him, not their actual "power".

Maybe that's because I've spent a lot of time in apologetics, and I know how people can twist words and meanings, and how precise one has to be with their words.



Yes, that is certainly part of it.

But I think another important part of it was that He wasn't so much defending His deity to them, but rebuking them. Ps. 82 is an imprecatory Psalm, and the Jews KNEW that it was an imprecatory Psalm. And Jesus was applying this Psalm to them, condemning them in the process.
Thanks for your input, Theo. "Power" can mean authority, but I understand what you are saying. :) And I agree that Jesus was lambasting the Pharisees through Ps. 82.
 

Bonnie

Well-known member
From my point of view, it appears that Matt does the same things you do and misdirects and makes points that have nothing to do with Ps 82. We are not talking about where God came from or whether God was born on some other planet. That is a completely different discussion. Ps 82 says there are other gods. That is the argument, the rest of it is superfluous.
No, ,the rest isn't superfluous at all, because Matt's questions involve Who and What God is, and His nature--and whether or not the "gods" in Ps. 82 share His nature. And where God supposedly came from IS part of that discussion. Your complaint here is just a diversionary tactic, anyway, to keep from discussing Matt's point.

But Matt made a very pertinent point--IF these "gods" in Ps. 82 are real, true gods/deities, then why doesn't God know them? He says He knows of no other Gods. No other Rock but Himself. So, why doesn't He know the "gods" in Ps. 82? Why doesn't He recognize them as Deities?

I think you asked for Bible verses that claim there is no other God but God (paraphrasing). Well, we have given you several. Instead of actually believing the Bible and what God actually said through His true Prophets, you have attempted to try to put some sort of "spin" on the verses, like redefining what "besides" actually means.

Here are several that declare there is ONLY ONE GOD:

Deuteronomy 4:35,39 — Unto thee it was shown, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him. (39) Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

2 Samuel 7:22 — Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God; for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

1 Kings 8:60 — That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else.

1 Chronicles 17:20
— O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

Nehemiah 9:6 — Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou has made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

Psalm 18:31 — For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?

Psalm 86:10 — For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art God alone.

Isaiah 37:16,20
— O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou has made heaven and earth. (20) Now therefore, O LORD our God, save us from his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou art the LORD, even thou only.

Isaiah43:10,11 — Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior.

Isaiah44:6,8 — Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Fear ye not, neither be afraid; have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

John 17:3 —
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

James 2:19 — Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

(compiled by irr.org, in part)

So, we have far more than just ONE verse that says there is only one True God/one God in existence. ALL others, therefore, by default, that are labeled "gods" in the bible are NOT deity, but, depending upon context, idols, angels, or mighty men/rulers/judges. But they are NOT TRUE GODS because there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD in existence.

So the leaders and prophets in your church, starting with JS, down to the present, are and were false prophets, who taught blasphemy and lies and doctrines, leading millions of people astray into spirit darkness for eternity. They will have much to answer, at the Resurrection.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Isn't ironic that the Mormon falsely accuses us of "misdirecting"?

Here are several that declare there is ONLY ONE GOD:

Deuteronomy 4:35,39 — Unto thee it was shown, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him. (39) Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

Mormons "misdirect" to Ps. 82.

2 Samuel 7:22 — Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God; for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

Mormons "misdirect" to Ps. 82.

1 Kings 8:60 — That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else.

Mormons "misdirect" to Ps. 82.

1 Chronicles 17:20 — O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

Mormons "misdirect" to Ps. 82.

Nehemiah 9:6 — Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou has made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

Mormons "misdirect" to Ps. 82.

Psalm 18:31 — For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?

Mormons "misdirect" to Ps. 82.

Psalm 86:10 — For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art God alone.

Mormons "misdirect" to Ps. 82.

Isaiah 37:16,20 — O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou has made heaven and earth. (20) Now therefore, O LORD our God, save us from his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou art the LORD, even thou only.

Mormons "misdirect" to Ps. 82.

Isaiah43:10,11 — Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior.

Mormons "misdirect" to Ps. 82.

Isaiah44:6,8 — Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Fear ye not, neither be afraid; have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Mormons "misdirect" to Ps. 82.

John 17:3 — And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Mormons "misdirect" to Ps. 82.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

Mormons "misdirect" to Ps. 82.
James 2:19 — Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Mormons "misdirect" to Ps. 82.


It's like they think Ps. 82 is "Kryptonite" to anything else the Bible might say.

Notwithstanding that the Book of Mormon ALSO teaches "only one God".

Notwithstanding that the ECF's (which Mormons LOVE) also teach "only one God".

But no, Mormons have "Ps. 82" to hide behind...
 

Bonnie

Well-known member
Isn't ironic that the Mormon falsely accuses us of "misdirecting"?



Mormons "misdirect" to Ps. 82.



Mormons "misdirect" to Ps. 82.



Mormons "misdirect" to Ps. 82.



Mormons "misdirect" to Ps. 82.



Mormons "misdirect" to Ps. 82.



Mormons "misdirect" to Ps. 82.



Mormons "misdirect" to Ps. 82.



Mormons "misdirect" to Ps. 82.



Mormons "misdirect" to Ps. 82.



Mormons "misdirect" to Ps. 82.



Mormons "misdirect" to Ps. 82.



Mormons "misdirect" to Ps. 82.


Mormons "misdirect" to Ps. 82.


It's like they think Ps. 82 is "Kryptonite" to anything else the Bible might say.

Notwithstanding that the Book of Mormon ALSO teaches "only one God".

Notwithstanding that the ECF's (which Mormons LOVE) also teach "only one God".

But no, Mormons have "Ps. 82" to hide behind...
They seem to think that ALL of these many verses--and there are others--should be judged in light of what Ps. 82 says--when it should be THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

By the way, these quotes are all KJV, so they have "beside" but that is older English. Newer translations have "besides" which means "apart from, except" which is more accurate.
 

Aaron32

Active member
Matt debated with a Mormon named Larry on this Psalm, awhile back. I am going to put some of it down on here, for our edification and discussion. I won't put the entire discussion down here, as the first part is about how long Matt had been doing this, his education, etc. But I will put down the pertinent parts, broken up into several posts, since we are limited to 10,000 characters per post.



Matt: So, when God says that there were NO gods formed before Him and there will be none formed after Him (Isaiah 43:10), what does that really mean?

Larry: Creation of idols. False gods.

Matt: I see, so there were no idol gods created before God and there will be no idol gods created after God?

Larry: Try studying up on Israelite views of time and space.

Matt: Can you just answer my last question? So there were no idol gods created before God and there will be no idol gods created after God?

Larry: Sorry. I should rephrase what I said. It's by way of commandment to the Israelites.
Here Matt reminds Larry that people created idol gods after God....sow how could Is. 43 be referring to idols?

Here Matt has Larry backed into a corner....IF God Himself knows of no other Gods, then why doesn't He know about the "gods" in Ps. 82? Did God have a lapse of memory, when He inspired Isaiah to write what He did in Is. 44? Which came AFTER Ps. 82?
Based on that reasoning: Why does God refer to other gods in the 10 commandments?

(This is the weakness and dishonesty of verbal debate.)
Matt shows that the word "el" can have several meanings and the true interpretation depends upon the immediate, God-given context and according to what the entire Biblical witness shows us.

To Larry’s point, I think context is important- The Old Testament didn’t distinguish between the Father and the Son. Jehovah was the God they were commanded to worship. No man comes into the Father but by Jesus.

But let’s use Matt’s reasoning of ‘God being everlasting to everlasting’ that no has come before or will come after?

Wouldn’t he be lining up with the Pharisees to stone Jesus, since Jesus proclaimed to be the Son of God, not coming in his own name, AND being “I AM”? Essentially claiming to come AFTER God the Father?

God is not God because of His merits, He is because HE IS, everything else is just evidence of that.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Based on that reasoning: Why does God refer to other gods in the 10 commandments?

This is a fallacious hermeneutic...

They are trying to use rationalization to try to deny explicit Scriptural truths:

Deut. 4:35 ... the Lord is God; there is no other besides him
Deut. 4:39 ... the Lord is God... there is no other.
Deut. 32:39 ... and there is no god besides me;
2 Sam. 7:22 ... neither is there any God besides thee, ...
2 Sam. 22:32 For who is God, save the LORD?
1 Kings 8:60 ... the Lord is God; there is no other.
1 Chr. 17:20 ... neither is there any God besides thee, ...
Isa. 44:6 ... I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God.
Isa. 44:8 ... Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
Isa. 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me:
Is. 45:21 ... there is no God else beside me;
Isa 45:22 ... for I am God, and there is none else.
Isa. 46:9 ... for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Mark 12:32 … for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
1 Cor. 8:4 … and that there is none other God but one.


Based on that reasoning: Why does God refer to other gods in the 10 commandments?

But the answer to your question is this...

God knows that even though no other gods exist, that won't stop the heathen from worshipping false gods (who are "idols", who are "nothing in this world", 1 Cor. 8:4). Just look at the example of the Israelites and the Golden Calf. That wasn't a real "god", but it didn't stop the people from worshipping it.

Think of it this way...

Suppose a woman has a husband, and that husband has an affair with another woman. The wife would be devastated. Then imagine that the husband said that it wasn't a real woman, he was simply lusting after an imaginary woman in his mind. So the woman is ten times more devastated, here she is a REAL woman, and she is replaced by a figment of his imagination. Not only is it just bad, even though the "other woman" doesn't exist, it's even WORSE!

Wouldn’t he be lining up with the Pharisees to stone Jesus, since Jesus proclaimed to be the Son of God, not coming in his own name, AND being “I AM”? Essentially claiming to come AFTER God the Father?

No, Jesus was NOT "claiming to come AFTER God the Father".
This is a perfect example of Mormons not understanding the Bible.

To properly understand John 8:58, you have to have a working knowledge of the Hebrew Scriptures, especially Ex. 3:14 and Ps. 90:2, as well as an understanding of Koine Greek.


"Am" vs. "Become"

"Before Abraham was born, 'I AM'."

The first thing to notice is that there are two different verbs here, "born" (from the Greek, "ginomai", to be born, or become"), and "am" (from the Greek, "eimi", to "be"). The first verb denotes a beginning of existence, but the second one doesn't.

We see the same contrast in John 1:1, where John writes, "in the beginning WAS the Word", with "was" being the imperfect (past tense, continuous), contrasted with v.14, "and the word BECAME flesh" ("ginomai", coming into being as flesh).

So the verb here does not say that the Son came into being some time between the Father and Abraham, it was simply saying that when Abraham was born, Jesus ALREADY was.

Btw, John 1:1 ("In the beginning was the Word") is an intentionally parallel to Gen. 1:1, "In the beginning God") God wasn't "created" in the beginning, He already existed. Likewise, the word wasn't "created" in the beginning, He already was.


The Burning Bush

An important verse in the Hebrew Scriptures is Ex. 3:14, where God gives His name to Moses. "God" isn't God's name, it is WHAT He is. I am human, my pet is a cat, my deity is a (the) god. We read:

Ex. 3:13 Then Moses said to God, “If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ what shall I say to them?” 14 God said to Moses, “I am who I am.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘I am has sent me to you.’”

One of the forms of God's name is "I am". He is the self-existent one. He is the great, "I am".

So when Jesus told the Jews in John 8, "before Abraham was born, I AM" He was claiming to be God, and that is why the Jews took up stones to stone Him:

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.


Psalm 90:2

John 8:58 is also a parallel to Ps. 90:2, which is about God (I really wish Mormons demonstrated knowledge of Psalms OTHER than Ps. 82):

Ps. 90:2 BeforeJohn 8:58 Before
the mountains were brought forth,
or ever you had formed the earth
and the world,
Abraham was,
from everlasting to everlasting you are God.I am
 

Bonnie

Well-known member
Based on that reasoning: Why does God refer to other gods in the 10 commandments?

(This is the weakness and dishonesty of verbal debate.)


To Larry’s point, I think context is important- The Old Testament didn’t distinguish between the Father and the Son. Jehovah was the God they were commanded to worship. No man comes into the Father but by Jesus.

But let’s use Matt’s reasoning of ‘God being everlasting to everlasting’ that no has come before or will come after?

Wouldn’t he be lining up with the Pharisees to stone Jesus, since Jesus proclaimed to be the Son of God, not coming in his own name, AND being “I AM”? Essentially claiming to come AFTER God the Father?

God is not God because of His merits, He is because HE IS, everything else is just evidence of that.
Because those other "gods" are idols and idols do not exist. Pagans may THINK they do, but they do not. Does Ishtar (goddess) exist? Ba'al? Dagon? Marduk? Is a golden calf, that the Israelites worshiped in the wilderness, when Moses was on Mt. Sinai a true deity?
 

Bonnie

Well-known member
From my point of view, it appears that Matt does the same things you do and misdirects and makes points that have nothing to do with Ps 82. We are not talking about where God came from or whether God was born on some other planet. That is a completely different discussion. Ps 82 says there are other gods. That is the argument, the rest of it is superfluous.
That is all it is--your point of view. But I notice that you said nothing about Matt's points about Is. 44 and Ps. 82.
 

Bonnie

Well-known member
Yep. As Markk stated, that I quoted, once we ask them questions they have no scripted "talking points" to, they are lost. They are left with repeating the same things and questions over and over again, or pretending we have not answered their points and questions, or what we see here--an attempt at making a rabbit trail away from our pertinent questions and points. If all of these things fail, they then will often fall back on "I know Joseph Smith was a prophet sent from God and that the Church is true." Both of which are lies, of course.
 

Aaron32

Active member
Because those other "gods" are idols and idols do not exist. Pagans may THINK they do, but they do not. Does Ishtar (goddess) exist? Ba'al? Dagon? Marduk? Is a golden calf, that the Israelites worshiped in the wilderness, when Moses was on Mt. Sinai a true deity?
And yet God still acknowledges them in the OT. How does that contrast with Ps. 82, where Jesus cited the law to justify in calling himself the “Son of God”?
 

brotherofJared

Active member
No, ,the rest isn't superfluous at all, because Matt's questions involve Who and What God is, and His nature--and whether or not the "gods" in Ps. 82 share His nature.
That has never been the question. God's nature has nothing to do with it whatsoever. On it's face, God called them gods. Matt is not allowed to judge what God said, to tell him what he means. It has also never been the argument that those other gods are in any way, shape, or form, Jehovah or the most High [God]. Ps 82 doesn't make any such claim. So why does the nature of Jehovah need to be examined?

What we have here is the typical bogus tactic that if he has a few unrelated items correct, then his false claims must be correct also. Where have we heard that before? Tell a truth in order to unload a few lies. Yea. No, the Nature of God has nothing to do with Ps 82's other gods.
And where God supposedly came from IS part of that discussion.
Nope.
Your complaint here is just a diversionary tactic, anyway, to keep from discussing Matt's point.
Laughable. My diversionary tactic is in pointing out Matt's diversionary tactic. Ok.
 

brotherofJared

Active member
But Matt made a very pertinent point--IF these "gods" in Ps. 82 are real, true gods/deities
The argument has never been about "true" gods. Stop bringing it up as if it was.
then why doesn't God know them?
First off, Is there anything or anyone that God doesn't know? Second, He obviously knew these gods because he spoke to them. He stood in council with them. He declared them to be sons of the most High [God]. So, based on Ps 82, we know that God knows them.
He says He knows of no other Gods.
Sure, rip the phrase out of context. He knows of no other gods that are beside him, equal to him or who could or would do the job He is set to do. He doesn't know them because there are no other gods that can or will. We know for sure that those other gods, the ones in Ps 82 won't. They have a hard enough time with judgment, how could they possibly be equal to him or could or would do the job He is set to do? Do you know what job that is?
No other Rock but Himself.
Where does it say in Ps 82 that any of the God's mentioned there are Rocks? Do you understand the implication there? What the rock means? You do know there are other rocks in the foundation, but there is only one chief cornerstone. Lots of rocks, just none that are beside the chief cornerstone. No rock, even being set next to and touching the chief cornerstone, is any more important or necessary than the chief cornerstone, even though there are other rocks, they are just not beside, equal to, or as unique in purpose or function
So, why doesn't He know the "gods" in Ps. 82? Why doesn't He recognize them as Deities?
He does know them. He is in council with them. Try again. This one is a total fail.

as is that one stone.
 

brotherofJared

Active member
I think you asked for Bible verses that claim there is no other God but God (paraphrasing).
I don't believe I did. I made a claim. I've shown in every case, that each instance addresses the existence of other gods either explicitly or implicitly.
Well, we have given you several. Instead of actually believing the Bible and what God actually said through His true Prophets, you have attempted to try to put some sort of "spin" on the verses, like redefining what "besides" actually means.
I believe it is you all who are attempting to try to put some sort of "spin" on the verses. Bonnie, the scriptures explicitly state that there are other gods, even word for word stating that there are other gods. If one is to believe the Bible, then one has to accept that there are other gods, but to us, there is but one God, the Father. The sooner you all are able to accept that, the sooner we will be able to address the other things in the Bible that you all don't believe.
 
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