Mormonism and the council of "gods" in Ps. 82, by Matt Slick

brotherofJared

Well-known member
No, you don't "get it."
LOL. No, you don't "get it". ;)
No, I am not wrong. Judging unjustly and favoring the wicked are activities of sinful, mortal humans.
This is what you said Bonnie. Logically, if judging unjustly and favoring the wicked are activities of sinful, mortal humans, then the gods of Ps 82 must be mortal humans. There's nothing there about these so-called judges. It's just people.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
And you just shot yourself in the foot, for remember this: "Then shall they be gods, because they have no end..."

SHALL BE gods.
Believe what you will. I'm just drawing the doctrine directly from Ps 82.

You're missing the word "then", again focusing only on what you want to see. Why will they be gods, Bonnie? The passage qualifies the definition of what a god is and what eternal progression is. As I said before, it appears that as long as we progress or have the opportunity to progress, then we hold god status. We can lose that status. We cannot gain it. Satan, lost it along with his one-third host of heaven that he took down with him. Those who become sons of Perdition will lose it. Anyone who does not enter into eternal marriage will also lose it.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Well, we humans have an end to our physical lives on earth, right?
Nope. The atonement overcame that limitation.
So we cannot be gods NOW, can we? Just "potential" gods--right?
I wouldn't call it "potential" others would. I know we often state we are gods in embryo, but that's not what Ps 82 says.

From Ps 82, it appears that God knew our character before we were born. He was able to identify those who would judge unjustly, but until they did, they had the opportunity to not fall like one of the princes. Ps 82 was a warning and an admonition to judge justly and to favor the poor and needy. It was a signpost from heaven and when those individuals were confronted with yet another warning, they chose to kill the son of God anyway.

I'm just saying that God's definition of what a god is is not your definition. Apparently, a person can judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked, but the consequences are damning. That being ceases to be a god when he cuts off his damns himself by his works.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Ps. 82 has the "fatherless." However, I was referring in general to what all of Ps. 82 and Is. 1, 3, and 10 reference.
Fatherless does not orphans nor widows make. You are referring to Isaiah passages, not Ps 82. There is no relation between the two, except and until you recognize that the judgment was passed upon all the people of Israel, not just human rulers. Then there is a connection, but Isaiah is referring to judgment day and Ps 82 is a divine council in heaven that held before the world was formed.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Fatherless does not orphans nor widows make. You are referring to Isaiah passages, not Ps 82. There is no relation between the two, except and until you recognize that the judgment was passed upon all the people of Israel, not just human rulers. Then there is a connection, but Isaiah is referring to judgment day and Ps 82 is a divine council in heaven that held before the world was formed.
Yes, there is a relationship between the two. Fatherless could be orphans, but being without a father to sustain the family would be devastating. And these are some of the ones the wicked rulers and judges are crushing.

Isaiah is not referring to Judgment day in Is. 1 and 3, since the verses mention Judah and Jerusalem, and what would happen to them for their corruption--and we know what happened to them, under the prophet Jeremiah--don't we?

Is. 1: The vision concerning Judah and Jerusalem that Isaiah son of Amoz saw during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

He goes on to say what is wrong with them and what will happen to them because of their corruption.

Now, parts of Isaiah certainly ARE prophetic of the last days--but not Is. 1 or 3. But it depends upon that ol' bugaboo of Mormonism, context.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
No it doesn't. :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
🤣🤣🤣Yes, it does, for favoring the wicked and making unjust judgments are things sinful human beings do. And have done, since humanity began. Those Isaiah verses prove it. In Exodus, God exhorts the judges to judge wisely and justly and not take bribes (paraphrasing). But they often DID judge unjustly and favored the wicked and took bribes...

Didn't you say Ps. 82 took place all in heaven, before the earth's foundation was laid? (paraphrasing). If so, then I ask you again:

1. Where did the fatherless come from? I thought ALL human being pre-mortal spirits had God as their father...? So, why were they fatherless in heaven?
2. Where did the wicked come from?

See, I can use emojis, too....

So, how many true Gods are there, boJ? And you think the "gods" in Ps. 82 are real deities, don't you? Didn't you write something like "god=deity"? So, how many true Gods are there?

John 17:3--"This is eternal life: that they may know You, the only true God, and His Son, Jesus Christ, Whom you have sent."

So, how many true Gods ARE there, boJ? Are the "gods" in Ps. 82 TRUE gods? Yes or no? Are they deity by nature?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
No, I'm not. I just looked them all up and listed them. I don't think I missed any. No filtering. It's basically a list of verses that all talk about the same thing. Your job is to show me how any of these relates to human judges. They don't. I don't have to filter any of that to come to that conclusion. Your response is just a cop-out.

Answer the question, Bonnie. Which of these verses indicates that sons of God are human judges?
Where did I ever write on here that all the mention of the words "sons of God" in the bible refers to human judges? You are once again erecting this:

1607258493115.png

It all depends upon that ol' bugaboo of Mormonism--CONTEXT. Don't you realize that YET? I have only been talking about "sons of God" and "gods" in Ps. 82. Please focus.

Now ,when are you going to answer MY simple question: How many true Gods are there?

John 17:3--"This is eternal life: that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, Whom you have sent."
 
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Bonnie

Super Member
LOL. No, you don't "get it". ;)

This is what you said Bonnie. Logically, if judging unjustly and favoring the wicked are activities of sinful, mortal humans, then the gods of Ps 82 must be mortal humans. There's nothing there about these so-called judges. It's just people.
So, judges and rulers aren't mortal people?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Believe what you will. I'm just drawing the doctrine directly from Ps 82.

No, you are putting Mormon "spin" on Ps. 82, while ignoring all the other verses in the Bible that says there is only one God in existence.
You're missing the word "then", again focusing only on what you want to see. Why will they be gods, Bonnie? The passage qualifies the definition of what a god is and what eternal progression is. As I said before, it appears that as long as we progress or have the opportunity to progress, then we hold god status. We can lose that status. We cannot gain
Yet, your first Presidency wrote that men can EVOLVE into Gods. First mortal men...THEN Gods, because they have no end....do mortal men, as mortals, have no end?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
yes. Our critics appear to be ignorant of our teachings.


What has this got to do with pre-mortal existence and Ps 82? Nothing. It's clear from the comment made that you guys are clueless about what we believe.

I'll include your quoted text to address it.

Becoming as great as the being who is God is not the same as being a god. You need to disconnect those two ideas from our theology. As I stated before, your definition of what a god is does not appear to be the same as God's definition. God, in Ps 82, addresses wicked beings and says they are gods. That clearly violates your definition of a god. But, since God is saying, it obviously doesn't violate God's definition. Perhaps you should learn from his word instead of trying to make his word fit yours.

This should address all your other posts which I believe try to make becoming like god the same as being a god. That is not what we believe.

Ok. This isn't about being like God, so it is a little different, but it's still referring to growth, not a change in titles. Our scriptures specify what makes a being a god. The essence of that doctrine is found here in D&C 132: 19-20 "...which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever. Then shall they be gods, because they have no end..."

What makes us gods? in a nutshell, having no end, makes us gods. So, it appears that we have always been gods until we do something that damns or stops us from continuing forever. Beings that this happens to would be anyone who isn't married for eternity. In another case, it would be anyone who didn't obtain a body accepting Christ's plan over Lucifers. There may be other "damning" things we might have done along the way that would have ended our "progress" but we don't know about any of those. We are certain that Satan's progress has an end, not in his life, but in is ability to continue the seeds.
Except your church teaches that with exaltation to Godhood, people can become like Heavenly Father. And don't forget this, your church's founding prophet's daddy:

“The Patriarch was the father of Joseph, the Prophet. That was the first time Lorenzo had met him. After the services, they were introduced, and Father Smith said to my brother that he would soon be convinced of the truth of the latter-day work, and be baptized; and he said: ‘You will become as great as you can possibly wish—EVEN AS GREAT AS GOD, and you cannot wish to be greater.’” (Eliza R. Snow, Biography and Family Record of Lorenzo Snow, Salt Lake City: Deseret News Co., 1884, pp. 9–10.)

So, if you don't like the word "become" then take it up with JS' daddy. And remember, your church's First Presidency said that men can EVOLVE into Gods. If we were already gods, then why would we need to evolve into Gods? Don't like that? Take it up with them. I got that statement off your church's official website. Don't like it? Take it up with your church!
 
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brotherofJared

Well-known member
Fatherless could be orphans
LOL. No. The fatherless are not orphans. Orphans have no parents. You're asserting your notions into the text instead of reading what's actually there. There are no orphans or widows in Ps 82.
Isaiah is not referring to Judgment day in Is. 1 and 3, since the verses mention Judah and Jerusalem
How does that make any sense? Jews don't stop being Jews just because they are dead.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
He goes on to say what is wrong with them and what will happen to them because of their corruption.
I'm okay with that. Isa 1 certainly describes the condition of the kingdom which accurately describes their situation after being carried off to Babylon, but nothing in Isa 1 alludes that the sole responsibility was on human judges or rulers. here are some of the text from Isaiah 1
  • Children have I reared and brought up,
  • my people do not understand
  • Ah, sinful nation
  • a people laden with iniquity
  • offspring of evildoers
  • children who deal corruptly
  • From the sole of the foot even to the head,
    there is no soundness in it
  • you rulers of Sodom - here is a give me. One line that refers to rulers
  • you people of Gomorrah
  • Your princes are rebels - another give me
    and companions of thieves.
  • Everyone loves a bribe
    and runs after gifts
  • But rebels and sinners shall be broken together, - one line mentions both
So, Bonnie, judging unjustly, oppressing the fatherless and the widow appears to be a national past time. The judgment was against the people, not just judges and rulers. The problem that you present, as I understand it, is that these passages are the support for the gods in Ps 82 are human judges. If you're going to connect it that way, then those gods would be everyone. Not just judges and rulers or specifically not human judges. There is no support in these passages which would help identify the gods in Ps 82 as being human judges. It's just your wishful thinking.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Yes, it does, for favoring the wicked and making unjust judgments are things sinful human beings do.
Bonnie, you said that "dying like men" proves that these are human judges. It doesn't do any such thing. You are modifying your statement. Dying like men doesn't prove they are judges at all, nor does showing partiality to the wicked or judging unjustly. You are asserting meaning where there is no support for it.
Those Isaiah verses prove it.
Also not true. They prove that humans judge unjustly, true, but there's no support for the idea that these gods in Ps 82 are human judges. They could be humans, but where has God called humans gods? So, we have a conundrum and your solution is to make them the only humans that were called gods, but again, Isaiah passages aren't about human judges, it's about humans, specifically, humans who were Jews who lived in Jerusalem.

To further complicate matters, however, is that these gods were also called sons of God. Where do we see that applied to wicked humans? One place, in Genesis. The jury is still out about who those beings referred to. The only other place would be Job where the sons of God presented themselves before God and Satan was among them. Curious situation there. I would wonder if Satan was also a son of God. He certainly isn't anyone else's son. Satan is also wicked, so it is possible that, same as it is here, not black and white, that there were various shades of wicked, Satan being the worst while others might only judge unjustly?

Well, if Satan was cast out of heaven, then that meeting in Job 1 and 2 must have occurred before the war in heaven which occurred before the foundations of the world were laid and yet. There they were talking about Job... But Job didn't exist then, or did he?

I have no problem with concurrent views, past, present, and future with God. You all do, apparently, but why couldn't God know about all these things before they actually happened? Why couldn't God know about Job before the world was even formed? Why couldn't he share that knowledge with anyone he chose to? Wasn't it God who rose in the assembly of El to judge the gods? Don't you think he would also know past, present, and future?

I just don't think you all think things through. It causes too much trouble for your theology. We have a situation where gods, explicitly stated by God that they are gods and you ignore it. You subtract that knowledge and replace it with your own theology that God is alone God when we have clear evidence in the New Testament that He isn't alone. So, you subtract everything but what you believe from the Bible and believe only the portions that you think support your position which turns God into some kind of court jester, playing tricks on his people who are supposed to believe that God is perfect. Jesters are not perfect. They earn their living by playing tricks for amusement. What a hypocritical game to play on the poor unsuspecting rich man. "Why call me good? There is none good but one, God." Why would he lie to the rich man and make up a story like that? Well, there's no answer except that God can do anything he wants... :rolleyes:
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Bonnie, you said that "dying like men" proves that these are human judges. It doesn't do any such thing. You are modifying your statement. Dying like men doesn't prove they are judges at all, nor does showing partiality to the wicked or judging unjustly. You are asserting meaning where there is no support for it.

You know, if Mormons spent even 1/10 the time they invest in arguing about Ps. 82, and put it in studying passages like Deut. 4:35,39, Deut. 32:39, 1 Kings 8:60, Ps. 86:10, Isa. 43-46, etc. etc., they might actually learn something.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Bonnie, you said that "dying like men" proves that these are human judges. It doesn't do any such thing. You are modifying your statement. Dying like men doesn't prove they are judges at all, nor does showing partiality to the wicked or judging unjustly. You are asserting meaning where there is no support for it.

I didn't say dying like men proves they are judges, but human judges, if I remember right. But who dies like men (humans) except humans?
Also not true. They prove that humans judge unjustly, true, but there's no support for the idea that these gods in Ps 82 are human judges. They could be humans, but where has God called humans gods? So, we have a conundrum and your solution is to make them the only humans that were called gods, but again, Isaiah passages aren't about human judges, it's about humans, specifically, humans who were Jews who lived in Jerusalem.

Sure there is support--God is lambasting corrupt judges who favor the wicked and make unjust judgments. Those are activities of sinful human beings--not God.

I have NO conundrum at all, but Mormons sure do. We have been told there are lots of gods out there--some good, some evil, but "one is true." So, by default, all of the other beings called 'gods' in the Bible are false gods--right?
To further complicate matters, however, is that these gods were also called sons of God. Where do we see that applied to wicked humans? One place, in Genesis. The jury is still out about who those beings referred to. The only other place would be Job where the sons of God presented themselves before God and Satan was among them. Curious situation there. I would wonder if Satan was also a son of God. He certainly isn't anyone else's son. Satan is also wicked, so it is possible that, same as it is here, not black and white, that there were various shades of wicked, Satan being the worst while others might only judge unjustly?

"Sons" can be used figuratively, just as "father" can, depending upon context. "Sons" doesn't always mean the literal male children of a man and a woman. God created all of us, humans and angels alike, and in that sense, we are all God's "sons/children."
Well, if Satan was cast out of heaven, then that meeting in Job 1 and 2 must have occurred before the war in heaven which occurred before the foundations of the world were laid and yet. There they were talking about Job... But Job didn't exist then, or did he?

No, Job happened after Satan was cast out. That is for another discussion, not here. But again, IF as you claim, the events in Ps. 82 took place in heaven before the foundation of the world was laid out, then whom was there for these "gods" to judge? Whom was there in heaven to make unjust judgments against? Why should God tell them to defend the weak and poor and fatherless--were there poor people and fatherless people in heaven, before the world was laid out? How could they be fatherless when HF is supposedly the father of ALL of us in the spirit, pre-mortal state?
I have no problem with concurrent views, past, present, and future with God. You all do, apparently, but why couldn't God know about all these things before they actually happened? Why couldn't God know about Job before the world was even formed? Why couldn't he share that knowledge with anyone he chose to? Wasn't it God who rose in the assembly of El to judge the gods? Don't you think he would also know past, present, and future?

No reason God could not know about these things in advance, but Ps. 82 is about things that already happened ("how long will you favor the wicked and make unjust judgments?") and was still happening ("defend the weak and fatherless..."). A command in the present tense, not future tense.
I just don't think you all think things through. It causes too much trouble for your theology. We have a situation where gods, explicitly stated by God that they are gods and you ignore it

No problem at all, nor do I "ignore" it. Instead, I take ALL of Scripture into account and note all of the verses that explicitly say there is ONLY ONE GOD when reading Ps. 82, and also take note of what Isaiah wrote in a few places, that are similar in theme, wording, and tone, to Ps. 82. I also take note especially of Is. 44, where God says He knows of NO OTHER GODS besides Himself. So why doesn't He "know" of the "gods" in Ps. 84? Why doesn't He make an exception to them?

BTW--Paul explicitly states that some people have their belly as their god....that means bellies are true gods, doesn't it? Since "god" is used...right?
. You subtract that knowledge and replace it with your own theology that God is alone God when we have clear evidence in the New Testament that He isn't alone.

Well, God the Father ISN'T alone--there are also God the Son and God the Holy Spirit with Him, from all eternity--the Great Three in One God. So, yes, there IS clear evidence from the NT that there is ONLY ONE GOD: "That they may know YOU, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, Whom You have sent." (John 17:3)

How many true Gods does that make, boJ? You stated that Father, Son, and HG are three Gods....
So, you subtract everything but what you believe from the Bible and believe only the portions that you think support your position which turns God into some kind of court jester, playing tricks on his people who are supposed to believe that God is perfect.

No, that is what Mormonism does, picking and choosing which Bible verses to believe...and if it says something Mormons don't like, well, then, it is either ignored or twisted or said to be "symbolic." Like how the entire Biblical witness says there is ONLY ONE GOD. So, the boast that Mormons believe the Bible is a bankrupt one.
Jesters are not perfect. They earn their living by playing tricks for amusement. What a hypocritical game to play on the poor unsuspecting rich man. "Why call me good? There is none good but one, God." Why would he lie to the rich man and make up a story like that? Well, there's no answer except that God can do anything he wants... :rolleyes:
We are not talking about Matthew 19, that is just a diversionary tactic.
God does not play tricks. But it is your lying false prophet founder that played all sorts of "tricks" on his gullible followers, changing his theology as he went along, from monotheism and Trinitarianism, as evinced from the BoM, and finally, into outright polytheism, teaching the blasphemy that God the Father was not always God, and that Jesus and Satan are actual spirit brothers in the supposed, pre-mortal existence. He also introduced such false practices as polygamy and, with himself, also polyandry. The man boasted he had done a better job of even Jesus of keeping a church together. The man had no shame. Yet, this is the man that good, true blue Mormons must testify of, in some of their Sunday meetings..."I testify that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, and the church is true, and Jesus is the Christ." Only the last one is true.

Now, how many true Gods are there, boJ? "That they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, Whom You have sent." (John 17:3)

How many?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
You know, if Mormons spent even 1/10 the time they invest in arguing about Ps. 82, and put it in studying passages like Deut. 4:35,39, Deut. 32:39, 1 Kings 8:60, Ps. 86:10, Isa. 43-46, etc. etc., they might actually learn something.
You got that right. Not to mention John 17:3.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
didn't say dying like men proves they are judges, but human judges, if I remember right.
No kidding? Really? Is that what you said? Dying like men does NOT prove they are human judges. :rolleyes:
But who dies like men (humans) except humans?
Well, that is a point, but nothing in the statement makes them judges.
Sure there is support--God is lambasting corrupt judges
According to you, not according to the Ps 82. You're making that up out of whole cloth. This argument is beyond ridiculous. In what world does "dying like men" mean human judges? Please show me a dictionary that defines human judges as "dying like men"?
Those are activities of sinful human beings--not God.
Well, God said different.
I have NO conundrum at all
Ignoring it doesn't make it go away.
... but "only one true God". So, by default, all of the other beings called 'gods' in the Bible are false gods--right?
Not according to God. You don't seem to realize that by offering this argument you are saying that Jesus Christ is a false god.
"Sons" can be used figuratively, just as "father" can, depending upon context. "Sons" doesn't always mean the literal male children of a man and a woman. God created all of us, humans and angels alike, and in that sense, we are all God's "sons/children."
Where do we find the term "sons of God" applied to wicked human judges? Where do we find it applied to wicked humans? Just answer the question and stop tap-dancing around the question. I gave you a list of the verses that I could find and none of them applied to wicked humans, much less wicked human judges. Show me where we might find your assertion.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
No, Job happened after Satan was cast out.
I'm not talking about when Job happened. I'm talking about when the meeting took place.
That is for another discussion, not here.
No. That discussion is for here. It's talking about when we might find other mentions of "sons of God" which is a point of argument that these beings, these sons of God in Ps 82 occurred before the earth was formed.
But again, IF as you claim, the events in Ps. 82 took place in heaven before the foundation of the world was laid out, then whom was there for these "gods" to judge?
But again, they were judging each other. Why do you keep asking questions I've already given the answer too?
Why should God tell them to defend the weak and poor and fatherless--were there poor people and fatherless people in heaven, before the world was laid out? How could they be fatherless when HF is supposedly the father of ALL of us in the spirit, pre-mortal state?
Apparently, you don't understand my argument. How can God ask Satan to consider Job who supposedly didn't exist? If you're going to claim that Job did exist, what was Satan doing bargaining with God about Job if Satan was cast out of heaven? Remember, the sons of God presented themselves before God and Satan was among them. Where else do we find the sons of God presenting themselves before God? Why in Ps 82. That's where. We don't find that happening anywhere on earth.

So, If Job didn't exist and Satan was asked to consider Job, then it seems likely that the whole expanse of earth and it's inhabitants from the beginning to the end were before the sons of God. They saw them before they existed. It seems to me that they were aware of situations that would happen at some future time, on an earth, with mortals structured in families, and their reactions to these situations were being judged. I speculate that they knew they would become these mortals. Thus, by judging each other, they were judging mortals, weak, fatherless, afflicted, and destitute.

Bonnie, I have never suggested or claimed that any of these beings were procreated. That's your assertion, not mine. The Bible gives us no information on when angels or "gods" were created. Believing that they were created is a tradition based belief, not a scriptural one. I have stated that I believe that all of these beings, including Jesus Christ, are sons of God by covenant, the very same as we become sons of God by covenant in mortality. I could be wrong. But I do not believe that any spirit or angel was procreated. I don't believe that we teach that they were. Now arguing that they weren't procreated is moot in any argument with me since that's not my position. But the scriptures do claim that they are sons of God and it seems reasonable to me that all of these sons of God came here the same way that Jesus did, meaning by birth with a human father and a human mother. Jesus is different in that His father, though human, was God giving him, by divine right, power over death.

You can disagree with this all you want. I have no problem with that. In fact, I expect it. But what you cannot do is argue that it's not what I believe. I learned all of this from sources that my church teaches. I want to be very clear. We teach a lot of things based on speculation of things we don't fully understand, such as how spirits are made and what we'll be doing after we die. I contest that no one knows how spirits are made. We can speculate until the cows come home and we'll never get any closer to understanding that. But one thing is certain. They do exist. They existed before the world was formed and they are often called sons of God. They are also sometimes referred to as angels, and; in one case, a son of the morning. It seems that all of these spirits were endowed with power. One of the most precious attributes they had was the ability to choose. We have, in Job 1 and 2, an event where these beings presented themselves before God and there, God gave power to Satan to afflict Job in all things except to take his life, and he did. Satan afflicted Job so badly that he wished he could die. His wife wished he would die. That's wicked, so it seems that among the sons of God, there can be wicked beings. One-third of these beings were cast out of heaven and none of them were human judges, nor will they ever be. They will never die like men because they will never be men. But that leaves two-thirds of the host of heaven and some of them, it seems, were also wicked.

It doesn't matter to me where these beings came from. I don't care if they were procreated or even that they were made. The fact is they were there and until you can show me where wicked humans are equivalent to being sons of God, I'm going to have to go with they weren't human, yet. But it seems that they would become human. It seems to me that they could enter mortality and become human the same way that Jesus became human. It seems to me that God was judging these beings according to His foreknowledge. He was judging them on things He knew would happen in their mortal, yet future, existence.
 
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