Mormonism and the council of "gods" in Ps. 82, by Matt Slick

brotherofJared

Well-known member
No reason God could not know about these things in advance, but Ps. 82 is about things that already happened ("how long will you favor the wicked and make unjust judgments?") and was still happening ("defend the weak and fatherless..."). A command in the present tense, not future tense.
I shouldn't have to argue this, but I'll make my point. With God all things are in the present regardless of whether it is past, present, or future.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
No problem at all, nor do I "ignore" it.
Sorry, you are ignoring it. You take one set of beliefs that you think are justified in the scriptures and judge everything else against that. If it doesn't agree with your belief, then you ignore it. No matter how hard you try, you can't undo that God called them gods. That's what it says, Bonnie. It says, "I said, Ye are gods". Very straight forward hard to not understand what he said, but you guys use ... that's not what it means. That's not what He meant and then you try to tell us without any basis for it, except that elsewhere he called judges elohim. It's a pretty weak foundation, but that's the one you use. It's weak because the context of Ps 82 doesn't support an obvious interpretation of them being judges as does the other verses that use elohim to mean judges. It's weak because he also said that they were all sons of God, everyone one of them and now where else in the scriptures does he call wicked humans sons of God. It's weak because there is no assembly of El anywhere on earth where any human ever was judged by God. It's weak because Ps 82 doesn't say who they were showing partiality to or who they were judging unjustly.

But what's very very strong is that God called them gods. I'm going with the strong argument. They were gods because that's what God called them. Ps 82 becomes instructive to me. First, it tells me that there are other gods, but we already know that. There are three gods in the Godhead. The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. So, this isn't something that should be instructive, but it does confirm that this passage is in alignment with the New Testament witness. Second, it tells me that judging unjustly is bad and leads to darkness. Third, it tells me that these beings will become men and die. I believe it is safe to infer from this that not only wicked beings will become men and die. Surely good beings could also become men and die like men. Therefore, it seems reasonable that the real problem with judging unjustly is that they will also fall like one of the princes, so it isn't just death, but an eternal separation from God, like one of the princes who also is eternally separated from God.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Well, God the Father ISN'T alone--there are also God the Son and God the Holy Spirit with Him, from all eternity--the Great Three in One God. So, yes, there IS clear evidence from the NT that there is ONLY ONE GOD: "That they may know YOU, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, Whom You have sent." (John 17:3)

How many true Gods does that make, boJ? You stated that Father, Son, and HG are three Gods....
Yep. I did. I'm not buying into the argument that what's not true is false. If I did, then that would make Jesus and the Holy Ghost false Gods. We know from Paul that to us, there is but one God, the Father who is not the Son. Therefore the one true God is God the Father. Just like there is true north and magnetic north, True north does not make magnetic north a false north. We still navigate by magnetic north because without it, we could not find true north.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
No, that is what Mormonism does, picking and choosing which Bible verses to believe.
No. that is what our critics do in order to justify their false religions. We have demonstrated it with Ps 82. You keep pointing to Isaiah passages and asking the ridiculous question "then why doesn't God not these gods in Ps 82" when in fact, Ps 82 says that he does know them. How you can't see that your cherry-picking the scriptures to suit your theology is beyond me.

On the other hand, we see both Ps 82 as being correct and the Isaiah passages as being correct that they are perfectly in harmony with each other and Paul seems to agree with that as well. He states there are in fact "many gods". That's a fact that you all ignore. And while there are gods that are no gods by nature. We know that that the gods of Ps 82 are not those gods. So the fact that there are "gods many" still stands and that they are not all by nature no gods. We're not the ones ignoring scripture.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
No. that is what our critics do in order to justify their false religions. We have demonstrated it with Ps 82. You keep pointing to Isaiah passages and asking the ridiculous question "then why doesn't God not these gods in Ps 82" when in fact, Ps 82 says that he does know them. How you can't see that your cherry-picking the scriptures to suit your theology is beyond me.

On the other hand, we see both Ps 82 as being correct and the Isaiah passages as being correct that they are perfectly in harmony with each other and Paul seems to agree with that as well. He states there are in fact "many gods". That's a fact that you all ignore. And while there are gods that are no gods by nature. We know that that the gods of Ps 82 are not those gods. So the fact that there are "gods many" still stands and that they are not all by nature no gods. We're not the ones ignoring scripture.
Sorry, but in case you didn't notice, Isaiah was written long after Ps. 82, so the question is NOT "ridiculous." God Himself in Is. 44 says He knows of no other gods except for Himself....so, why didn't He know the "gods" of Ps. 82? Why didn't He acknowledge them as gods?

Now, how many true Gods are there, boJ?

"This is eternal life: that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, Whom You have sent." (John 17:3)
"I am the LORD and there is NO OTHER; apart from Me, THERE IS NO GOD."

How many, boJ?
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Sorry, but in case you didn't notice, Isaiah was written long after Ps. 82, so the question is NOT "ridiculous."
I don't even know how you can say that and actually believe it.
God Himself in Is. 44 says He knows of no other gods except for Himself....so, why didn't He know the "gods" of Ps. 82?
So, what that some other "God himself" that was speaking to the gods in Ps 82? Did he forget he knew them? Did he forget that he judged them? Was Isaiah so long after Ps 82 that God just forgot about them?
Why didn't He acknowledge them as gods?
That's the problem, Bonnie. He did acknowledge them as gods. That's what it says right there in Ps 82. I said, "Ye are gods..." I don't know why you think he didn't acknowledge them. :rolleyes:
 

Bonnie

Super Member
I don't even know how you can say that and actually believe it.

So, what that some other "God himself" that was speaking to the gods in Ps 82? Did he forget he knew them? Did he forget that he judged them? Was Isaiah so long after Ps 82 that God just forgot about them?

That's the problem, Bonnie. He did acknowledge them as gods. That's what it says right there in Ps 82. I said, "Ye are gods..." I don't know why you think he didn't acknowledge them. :rolleyes:
So, you don't know that Isaiah was written long after most of the Psalms? Asaph was a priest during the reign of King David. That was quite some time before the reign of King Hezekiah, one of the kings under whom Isaiah prophesied. So not only can I write it, but believe it, too.

No, God did NOT acknowledge them as Gods in Ps. 82, which came before Isaiah. In Isaiah 44, we read:

The Lord, Not Idols​

6 “This is what the Lord says—
Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last;
apart from me there is no God.

7 Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it.
Let him declare and lay out before me
what has happened since I established my ancient people,
and what is yet to come—
yes, let them foretell what will come.
8 Do not tremble, do not be afraid.
Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago?
You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me?
No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.”

God Himself knows of no other Gods. I mean, He would be in a position to know, would He not? So, why didn't He acknowledge the "gods" of P. 82? Why didn't He say through Isaiah, "Is there any God besides me--except for the other gods on My council" or "there is no other Rock, I know not one, except for the gods I mentioned to Asaph in the Psalms..."

NO! He said "I KNOW NOT ONE."

So, once again, HOW many true Gods are there? "This is eternal life: that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, Whom You have sent." (John 17:3)
 
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