Mormonism and the council of "gods" in Ps. 82, by Matt Slick

YeshuaFan

Well-known member
No. It isn't. God the Father is not the person who ate the apple in the garden. That has never been taught by anyone in this church. Our critics claim we teach it, but they are wrong and are simply spending false propaganda
Adam became a god, and he had sex with mary is what Young suggested!
 

YeshuaFan

Well-known member
Prophet Brigham Young (1801 - 1877):

“While brother Joseph was referring to the provinces of God, I was led to reflect that there is no act, no principle, no power belonging to the Deity that is purely philosophical. The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood – was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 115

“... I believe the Father came down from heaven, as the apostles said he did, and begat the Saviour of the world; for he is the ONLY-begotten of the Father, which could not be if the Father did not actually beget him in person.... I believe the Father came down in His tabernacle and begat Jesus Christ.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 1, p. 238

Apostle Heber C. Kimball (1802 - 1868):

“... In relation to the way in which I look upon the works of God and his creatures, I will say that I was naturally begotten; so was my father, and also my Saviour Jesus Christ. According to the Scriptures, he is the first begotten of his father in the flesh, and there was noting unnatural about it.”

- Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 211

Apostle Orson Pratt (1811 - 1881):

“God, the Father of our spirits, became the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh.... The fleshy body of Jesus required a Mother as well as a Father. Therefore, the Father and Mother of Jesus, according to the flesh, must have been associated together in the capacity of Husband and Wife; hence the Virgin Mary must have, for the time being, the lawful wife of God the Father.... He had a lawful right to overshadow the Virgin Mary in the capacity of a husband, and beget a Son, although she was espoused to another; for the law which He gave to govern men and women, was not intended to govern Himself, or to prescribe rules for his own conduct.”

- Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 158

Prophet Joseph F. Smith (1838 - 1918):

“Now, we are told in scriptures that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God in the flesh. Well, now for the benefit of the older ones, how are children begotten? I answer just as Jesus Christ was begotten of the flesh... Jesus is the only person who had our Heavenly Father as the father of his body.”

- Prophet Joseph F. Smith, Family Home Evening Manual, pp. 125, 126, 1972

Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith (1876 - 1972):

“Christ Not Begotten of Holy Ghost... Christ was begotten of God. He was not born without the aid of Man, and that Man was God!”

- Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, v. 1, p. 18, 1954

Apostle Bruce R. McConkie (1915 - 1985):
Very clear that heresy was spreading early on among Mormonism!
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
The end result is that the God of Mormonism was once a mortal man who became God, and had physical sex with Mary to produce Jesus!
The end result is your earlier statement is blatantly false and ignorantly repeated by people who just don't care to know but instead would rather pass falsehoods about other people's religions or my religion in specific.

To your response. Wasn't Jesus also a mortal man? Is he not God? Why is this concept of a mortal man being God so difficult for people who believe that God came among men in the flesh and died for us.? You know mortals die, right? Gods don't, supposedly. So that's the first portion of your statement that I believe is unwarranted.

The physical sex with Mary is also uncalled for. We don't know that. You don't know that. We don't discuss what occurred there, but whatever happened, and it didn't need to happen through "physical sex", the species of humans cannot produce with any other species other than humans. Especially if the child is also human. So we know that Mary was human and the Bible teaches that Jesus was human, like one of us. Then it stands to reason that the Father is also human. That fact can be true and no "physical sex" needs to be involved for Mary to get pregnant with God the Father's child. I believe they did, but just because I believe it doesn't make it true. I also believe that a marriage ceremony took place before Mary conceived. I personally believe that God follows his own rules.

You can mock it all you want, but it makes more sense that God the Father, a resurrected and exalted man, not the Holy Ghost, a spirit, got Mary pregnant. That's how humans get pregnant. If you all really believed that spirits could make women pregnant, then that would be a convenient excuse for wives to tell their returning military husbands. Our house is possessed by spirits and they go me pregnant while you were gone. :rolleyes:

The fact is, for a human egg to become fertilized and conceive, it requires sperm from a male of the same species. That event does not require sexual intercourse. We have methods now that we use where women can become pregnant without sex. I think God could have perfected it. To me, it seems ridiculous to do it that way when you don't have to.

I think the problem here is that of all the things that are not impossible for God to do, sex happens to be one of them. How weak is that? Even worse, to have some Ghost do the work it instead? :rolleyes:
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Your Prophet did state Adam was the god mormons are dealing with!
And I told you who that Adam was and who he wasn't. I understand that you don't get it. That's fine. What seems odd is that you don't want to get it. Even though I've offered an alternative. You just like your story better because it serves your animus. It doesn't have to be true. You just have to like it better.
 

YeshuaFan

Well-known member
The end result is your earlier statement is blatantly false and ignorantly repeated by people who just don't care to know but instead would rather pass falsehoods about other people's religions or my religion in specific.

To your response. Wasn't Jesus also a mortal man? Is he not God? Why is this concept of a mortal man being God so difficult for people who believe that God came among men in the flesh and died for us.? You know mortals die, right? Gods don't, supposedly. So that's the first portion of your statement that I believe is unwarranted.

The physical sex with Mary is also uncalled for. We don't know that. You don't know that. We don't discuss what occurred there, but whatever happened, and it didn't need to happen through "physical sex", the species of humans cannot produce with any other species other than humans. Especially if the child is also human. So we know that Mary was human and the Bible teaches that Jesus was human, like one of us. Then it stands to reason that the Father is also human. That fact can be true and no "physical sex" needs to be involved for Mary to get pregnant with God the Father's child. I believe they did, but just because I believe it doesn't make it true. I also believe that a marriage ceremony took place before Mary conceived. I personally believe that God follows his own rules.

You can mock it all you want, but it makes more sense that God the Father, a resurrected and exalted man, not the Holy Ghost, a spirit, got Mary pregnant. That's how humans get pregnant. If you all really believed that spirits could make women pregnant, then that would be a convenient excuse for wives to tell their returning military husbands. Our house is possessed by spirits and they go me pregnant while you were gone. :rolleyes:

The fact is, for a human egg to become fertilized and conceive, it requires sperm from a male of the same species. That event does not require sexual intercourse. We have methods now that we use where women can become pregnant without sex. I think God could have perfected it. To me, it seems ridiculous to do it that way when you don't have to.

I think the problem here is that of all the things that are not impossible for God to do, sex happens to be one of them. How weak is that? Even worse, to have some Ghost do the work it instead? :rolleyes:
The Bible states that mary conceived Jesus by act of the Holy Spirit, not by physical union with God!
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
God is eternally God in bible, is not per Mormonism, was once a mortal man!
Yea. Not that you would understand, not that you care to understand, but the fact that he was eternally God should open your eyes to a better understanding of what we teach. Let me help you. :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

If God was once a mortal man but was eternally God, then what does that make mortal men now? In our vernacular, they are called "gods in embryo". However, it appears that God does not use that term. We are here to learn to BE gods, not to become gods.

Please keep in mind that in Ps 82, God called those beings in his council gods. They were not good beings. They appeared to have a deposition to afflict the poor, the hungry, the naked, the widow, and the fatherless and still God called them gods. Jesus, using that same verse called wicked men who sought to take away his life, gods. So, it appears to me that we can stop being gods, but that's not the way God intended it.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
If God was once a mortal man but was eternally God, then what does that make mortal men now? In our vernacular, they are called "gods in embryo". However, it appears that God does not use that term. We are here to learn to BE gods, not to become gods.

You should tell that to Lorenzo Snow....

"As man now is, God once was;
as God now is, man
may be."

Not, "man already is".

I mean, I'm sure you have been LDS prophet/president, and Snow never was, right?

🤣 :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
🤣
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
The Bible states that mary conceived Jesus by act of the Holy Spirit,
That creates a conflict, doesn't it? That would make Jesus the only begotten of the Holy Ghost, not the Father, wouldn't it? Of course, this is "literalism" when it should be taken as a metaphor, since logically, scientifically, and biologically, spirits can't conceive human babies in humans. It's easier to believe something that is mystical rather than reality because it appears so much more "powerful". God created things from nothing and a spirit made a human baby in a human woman. Poof, it's magic!

I'm curious, where does the Bible say that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit? What "act" did he do? Do you care to substantiate any of your claims or are we going to continue arguing about your opinions?
 

Yitoz

Member
God was never a mortal man, and therefore never had to become God. In the kfd, jospeh taught that intelligences/souls were eternal and couldn't be created, in fact he taught specifically that the mormon god(s) could not create them. These intelligences/souls were not yet identifiable entities, nor were they yet spiritual beings, so they were not gods at that point in time. You are simply sucking this garbage out of your thumb. Please show mormon references that state that these intelligences/souls were already eternal gods, given that they were not yet spirit beings according to the mormon preexistence myth.
 

The Prophet

Active member
That creates a conflict, doesn't it? That would make Jesus the only begotten of the Holy Ghost, not the Father, wouldn't it? Of course, this is "literalism" when it should be taken as a metaphor, since logically, scientifically, and biologically, spirits can't conceive human babies in humans. It's easier to believe something that is mystical rather than reality because it appears so much more "powerful". God created things from nothing and a spirit made a human baby in a human woman. Poof, it's magic!

I'm curious, where does the Bible say that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit? What "act" did he do? Do you care to substantiate any of your claims or are we going to continue arguing about your opinions?
Alma 7:10, Matt 1:18-20 tell us Mary was conceived by the Holy Ghost
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
God was never a mortal man
You're entitled to your opinion, but the Bible plainly shows that God was a man. He was crucified and died. He was clearly a mortal man. Perhaps you don't believe that Jesus was God.
and therefore never had to become God.
We've never offered the argument that God had to become God. :rolleyes:
In the kfd, jospeh taught that intelligences/souls were eternal and couldn't be created
No. That's in the Doctrine and Covenants.
in fact he taught specifically that the mormon god(s) could not create them.
Still, that comes from the D&C, not the KFD. It seems logical that if something is eternal that it cannot be created, doesn't it?

You see, the problem between your beliefs and ours is that we don't believe in magic. The world wasn't created out of nothing and we weren't created out of nothing. You believe it was even though nothing in the Bible supports that idea.
These intelligences/souls were not yet identifiable entities
CFR please. Where do you guys get that idea?
nor were they yet spiritual beings, so they were not gods at that point in time.
Nope. No such teaching exists. There are a couple of sources that speculate about the where spirits come from, but in the KFD, Joseph Smith made it clear that spirits are eternal. In Ps 82, God called those spirits gods and called them sons of the Most High (who apparently isn't the God who called the other beings gods, so God has a God. There seems to be many gods, a huge plurality of gods, even gods who can't even start a fire much less create a world - as I have stated before, apparently to God, the word has a different meaning than the way you understand it to mean).
You are simply sucking this garbage out of your thumb.
No, I assure you, the garbage is all yours. I'm just trying to clean it up.
Please show mormon references that state that these intelligences/souls were already eternal gods,
I just did. The Bible is one of our references and clearly, God was calling them gods though they weren't even born yet and then we have God on the other end, calling mortals gods - The statement, "those who the word of God came" is indicative of those who heard him speaking, as the word of God came to them that day, or any time the word of God came to man, but more especially them on that day.

As I said, a being can stop being a god, but it appears that in God's vernacular, a god is a being that is still progressing. When that being reaches an end of his ability to progress, then he is no longer a god even if men worship him. Case in point, Lucifer, son of the morning, god of this world. His ability to progress has ended. Those who reject Jesus will no longer be able to progress and God has given them ample opportunity to decide, even those who were not aware of Him at any point in mortality.
given that they were not yet spirit beings according to the mormon preexistence myth.
Again, the only source that offers this speculation admits that it's speculation, so there is no doctrine that indicates that we were ever not spirits.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
You should tell that to Lorenzo Snow....

"As man now is, God once was;
as God now is, man
may be."

Not, "man already is".

I mean, I'm sure you have been LDS prophet/president, and Snow never was, right?
Maybe, you should pay attention to the argument. I said it is possible to stop being a god. Explain how the gods in Ps 82 are gods and yet, within the context of Ps 82, they aren't very good people. It appears that God's definition of what a god is, is still a mystery to our critics.
 

The Prophet

Active member
Maybe, you should pay attention to the argument. I said it is possible to stop being a god. Explain how the gods in Ps 82 are gods and yet, within the context of Ps 82, they aren't very good people. It appears that God's definition of what a god is, is still a mystery to our critics.
James Talmage, a Mormon Apostle, said Psalm 82:6 is not about becoming gods and should be more reliable on the Mormon Faith than brotherofjared :)

"In Psalm 82:6, judges invested by divine appointment are called 'gods.' To this scripture the Savior referred in His reply to the Jews in Solomon's Porch. Judges so authorized officiated as the representatives of God and are honored by the exalted title 'gods.' Compare the similar appellation applied to Moses (Exo. 4:16; 7:1). Jesus Christ possessed divine authorization, not through the word of God transmitted to Him by man, but as an inherent attribute. The inconsistency of calling human judges 'gods,' and of ascribing blasphemy to the Christ who called Himself the Son of God, would have been apparent to the Jews but for their sin-darkened minds." (James Talmage, Jesus the Christ, p. 501). -- Mormons often quote Psalm 82:6 which Jesus quoted in John 10:30-34 to show that we can become gods. Rather than them believing the truth from a Christian, perhaps they will believe it from their own apostle.
 

Yitoz

Member
You're entitled to your opinion, but the Bible plainly shows that God was a man. He was crucified and died. He was clearly a mortal man. Perhaps you don't believe that Jesus was God.
No, you appear to purposely dodge the truth that the Father never existed as a man. It is obvious that Jesus became incarnate.
We've never offered the argument that God had to become God. :rolleyes:
Joseph did in the kfd, so I don't know what "we've" you could be referring to; certainly not joseph.
No. That's in the Doctrine and Covenants.
Also kfd!
Still, that comes from the D&C, not the KFD. It seems logical that if something is eternal that it cannot be created, doesn't it?
Also kfd!
You see, the problem between your beliefs and ours is that we don't believe in magic. The world wasn't created out of nothing and we weren't created out of nothing. You believe it was even though nothing in the Bible supports that idea.
Supernatural, not magic. Magic was a smith family practice. Actually the Hebrew concept does support ex-nihilo for original creation of the universe and ex-materia for the rest of creation.
CFR please. Where do you guys get that idea?
They were not yet spirit children, and therefore had no identity prior to the mormon myth of preexistence. Again, indicated in the kfd.
Nope. No such teaching exists. There are a couple of sources that speculate about the where spirits come from, but in the KFD, Joseph Smith made it clear that spirits are eternal.
True, just as there is no teaching that those intelligences/souls were already gods. You are taking liberties with your interpretation of what was taught in the kfd.
In Ps 82, God called those spirits gods and called them sons of the Most High (who apparently isn't the God who called the other beings gods, so God has a God. There seems to be many gods, a huge plurality of gods, even gods who can't even start a fire much less create a world - as I have stated before, apparently to God, the word has a different meaning than the way you understand it to mean).
It is an absurd conjecture to state that the intelligences/souls spoken of by joseph in his kfd are in any way related to the gods spoken about on Ps 82/Jn 10. This is not a coherent conjecture.
No, I assure you, the garbage is all yours. I'm just trying to clean it up.
No, as above, you are still pulling you conjectures out of the aether.
I just did. The Bible is one of our references and clearly, God was calling them gods though they weren't even born yet and then we have God on the other end, calling mortals gods - The statement, "those who the word of God came" is indicative of those who heard him speaking, as the word of God came to them that day, or any time the word of God came to man, but more especially them on that day.
Again,you misrepresent the scriptures. The gods that Yahweh was speaking to in Ps 82 were principalities (and possibly mortals) that were unfaithful to their assignments and callings. Unfortunately for mormonism, you lump every spirit into the false mormon preexistence myth and miss the fact that other races of eternal beings were created prior to mankind.
As I said, a being can stop being a god, but it appears that in God's vernacular, a god is a being that is still progressing. When that being reaches an end of his ability to progress, then he is no longer a god even if men worship him. Case in point, Lucifer, son of the morning, god of this world. His ability to progress has ended. Those who reject Jesus will no longer be able to progress and God has given them ample opportunity to decide, even those who were not aware of Him at any point in mortality.
Only mormon gods, who were never really true gods, cab cease to become gods. Lucifer was a Cherub, or throne guardian, and was never a mortal, even though he preexisted mankind. The issue is that the mormon jesus is not the true Jesus, so one cansee why mormon exegesis is so stunted and flawed, so it is mormonism that teaches a false godhead jesus/holy/ghost. How can salvation be provided by the false mormon gods?
Again, the only source that offers this speculation admits that it's speculation, so there is no doctrine that indicates that we were ever not spirits.
Which is the main point. Mormon theology is based upon the unscriptural ramblings one merely one man. All other mormon theology is merely a footnote to joseph's false teachings. Mormonism is still chained to the early 19th century and has not really progressed theologically since 1844. Making new excuses for old teachings is intellectually flawed.
 

Janice Bower

Active member
God was never a mortal man, and therefore never had to become God. In the kfd, jospeh taught that intelligences/souls were eternal and couldn't be created, in fact he taught specifically that the mormon god(s) could not create them. These intelligences/souls were not yet identifiable entities, nor were they yet spiritual beings, so they were not gods at that point in time. You are simply sucking this garbage out of your thumb. Please show mormon references that state that these intelligences/souls were already eternal gods, given that they were not yet spirit beings according to the mormon preexistence myth.
Correct.
 

The Prophet

Active member
God was never a mortal man, and therefore never had to become God. In the kfd, jospeh taught that intelligences/souls were eternal and couldn't be created, in fact he taught specifically that the mormon god(s) could not create them. These intelligences/souls were not yet identifiable entities, nor were they yet spiritual beings, so they were not gods at that point in time. You are simply sucking this garbage out of your thumb. Please show mormon references that state that these intelligences/souls were already eternal gods, given that they were not yet spirit beings according to the mormon preexistence myth.
The Book of Mormon teaches that GOD the Father is God from eternity and never a mortal man
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
The Book of Mormon teaches that GOD the Father is God from eternity and never a mortal man​
Prove it.

First of all, let's be clear. No one, not the Book of Mormon, not the members of the church and not the leaders of the church have ever claimed or taught that God was ever not God. So, it's not necessary to show that the Book of Mormon teaches that God the Father is and was God from eternity. We already know that and believe it.

Show us where it states that God the Father was never a mortal man.
 
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