dberrie2020
Super Member
You tell us:
Luke 23:46---English Standard Version
46 Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!” And having said this he breathed his last.
Mormonism and the council of "gods" in Ps. 82, by Matt Slick
- Thread starter Bonnie
- Start date
Luke 23:46---English Standard Version
46 Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!” And having said this he breathed his last.
Bonnie
Super Member
Was Jesus a man or not, when He said this? Or was He ONLY GOD? "And the Word became flesh....he was born of a woman, born under the Law, to redeem us from the curse of the Law...."
Did Jesus' God nature die when His human body died on the cross?
"Destroy this temple and in 3 days I will raise it up. (and He meant the temple of His body)" (John 2:19, I think)
Or are you saying these "gods" in Ps. 82 are both God and man, as Jesus is? If so, then why were they sinning by favoring the wicked and judging unjustly? Wouldn't that make them sinners, like demons?
dberrie2020
Super Member
I believe God the Son died on the Cross at Calvary.
You have stated you believe Jesus was fully man and fully God.
So--what is your beef with the real gods of Psalm 82 dying? You know--the sons of God?
If God the Son can be made mortal and die--then why can't the gods of Psalm 82 die?
Could you define what you mean by "God nature"?
Jesus wasn't both God and man in the OT--and yet God the Son was made mortal and died in the NT.
What significance are you claiming in the possibility of whether they were both god and man--and they being real gods? Being able to die?
Are you claiming the gods of the Divine Council can't sin--or else--they aren't real gods? Where is that premise found in the Biblical text?
God Himself testified they were gods of the Divine Council--where He Himself took His place in:
Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
"divine" means divine--gods means gods.
Bonnie
Super Member
Were the "gods" of Ps 82 Deity BY NATURE? You know, the way Paul said that some worship things that were 'by nature NO gods"?
Matt pointed out that in Is. 44, God says He alone is God and He KNOWS OF NO OTHER GODS besides Himself--got that? So--IF God Himself knows of no other God but Himself--then why doesn't He know the "gods" of Ps. 82? Ps. 82 was written before Isaiah 44, wasn't it? So, IF these "gods" in Ps. 82 are REAL gods--then why doesn't God know about them?
Does this mean god?
Philippians 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) "
Is the belly a REAL god? Is it divine? Is it deity? So, does "god" in the bible always mean "god"?
dberrie2020
Super Member
I have asked you to explain to us what you mean by "Deity BY NATURE".
I have no idea what you mean by that phrase.
Since they were the "sons of God"--is that "Deity by nature?" Please explain.
That only renders God, and the Biblical witness-- as an unreliable source of truth:
Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
IOW--how could God take His place among the Divine Council of gods--and not know they exist?
One has to come up with a better answer than yours, as seeing what the scriptures testify to--your retort, or application of other scriptures--amounts to little less than a "taint so"!!! How do you collate the two sets of scriptures together?
As Michael Hesier states--that claim amounts to one "protecting God".
Those things aren't divine--and aren't among the divine council--where God takes His place:
Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
Could you explain that?
While you are at it--could you explain how the God of the OT--and the author of the OT quotes you and Theo post--somehow is separated out from the "one God" of the Biblical NT--and claims He has a God and Father also?
1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Matthew 22:44 ---King James Version (KJV)
44 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Ephesians 1:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Hebrews 1:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Theo1689
Well-known member
A poster who doesn't understand basic things, wants to presume to "lecture" us on the ONLY valid meaning of Ps. 82.
Get real.
Do you know what the "nature" of a rock is?
Do you know what the "nature" of a human is?
Do you know what the "nature" of a duck is?
From Merriam-Webster:
Nature: 1a) the inherent character or basic constitution
Bonnie
Super Member
I mean it the same way Paul meant it when he said some have worshipped what is "by nature, NO God"...how do you think PAUL meant it? If you figure out how HE meant it, then you will know how I mean it--won't you, dberrie?
"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word WAS GOD."
"In Him all the fullness of deity dwells in bodily form."
"Our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ."
"This is the true God and eternal life."
"Before Abraham was born, I AM."
"I am the LORD and there is NO OTHER. Apart from Me, there is NO GOD."
"No God came before Me and none will be formed after Me."
God said He knew no other GODS exist but Himself...so, why doesn't He know the "gods" of Ps. 82 are real Gods? He knows they exist, since He spoke about them through Asaph, but as Gods? IF He knows of NO OTHER GOD but Himself--they why doesn't He know the "gods' of Ps. 82 AS Gods? Instead, He says they will "die like men and fall like any prince"--doesn't He? Does DEITY NATURE DIE?
So, dberrie, care to answer the following questions that I have asked you for the past two boards and you never answered? BoJ did try, bless him...now, will you step up to the plate and answer them?
1. IF the 'gods" in Ps. 82 are REAL DEITIES--why are they judging unjustly? Why are they favoring the wicked? Wouldn't that make them SINNERS? ARE sinners DEITIES? Wouldn't that put them on par with the devil?
2. IF they judge the people in various matters, HOW would people contact them so they COULD render judgments?
3. IF these gods are REAL DEITIES, then how can they "die like men"? Jesus died, but He died as a man. His human nature died on the cross, but His God nature did NOT, since He said "Destroy this temple and in three days, I will raise it up." And He meant the temple of His body, didn't He? His human body died but did His DEITY DIE? So, how could these "gods" IF they are real, true deity, "die like men"?
4. And IF these gods in Ps. 82 are real deities, then why do they KNOW NOTHING and walk about in darkness? Is deity stupid?
Now one final question--do you think these "gods" are deity by nature? Are they true gods or untrue gods?
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Bonnie
Super Member
And I have explained numerous times what "sons of God" means in Ps. 82. And why these unjust judges were called "gods."
En Hakkore
Well-known member
Not so much understating it as I am dismissing it altogether... this is an example of what you later seek clarification on, a theological framework that is imposed on a text. A 'oneness' of authority and purpose is how you here in the 21st century make sense of the text against the backdrop of centuries of Christological controversies and the nature of Jesus in relation to deity... it is not an expression that would make any sense whatsoever to an ancient Israelite reading or listening to the various texts of the Hebrew Bible within their own historical and cultural context.
The question, as phrased, is problematic in several different ways. What you mean by "require" is unclear and the word "recognized" is freighted with assumptions of legitimacy. Furthermore, Judaism is a descriptor for a variety of religious practices that existed in the last few centuries BCE and afterward, but were united in monotheistic worship --- the deities of earlier centuries were stripped of their divinity and denied existence or relegated to lower classes of heavenly beings such as angels. The period to which I am referring and during which a large portion of the Hebrew Bible was composed (included the texts under consideration) is that of ancient Israel and during this period those responsible for the literature were monolatrists --- the worship of Baal and Asherah, as well as households gods, was prohibited, but these deities were still assumed to exist.
YHWH, YHWH God, God Most High are all referring to the same being, the head of the Israelite pantheon of deities (as demonstrated previously by triangulating each as the singular creator god)... they are different names for the same deity. For example, some here might call me En Hakkore or EH or Jonathan, but I am only one person.
Kind regards,
Jonathan
dberrie2020
Super Member
What you haven't engaged is the fact those gods were part of the Divine Council:
Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
Since when was the divine council of earthly origins?
dberrie2020
Super Member
Jonathan--good morning.
I have a question:
Is it within your scope of belief-- the Biblical writers believed these gods were real, existent, heavenly gods (deities)?
Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
Bonnie
Super Member
You don't remember very well what I wrote about this entire Psalm, do you?
- Keeping the commandments and LDS theology
This is most certainly true...I was on the JW and CATH boards for 4 years each, back in the 2000's. And what you say is true, though I did not see Catholics quote them that much. Mormons seem to quote them the most. I was on the Catholic board for a number of years, but most of my knowledge of...
forums.carm.org
Post no. 310
- Keeping the commandments and LDS theology
Seeing the Biblical NT separates out God the Son from the "one God"--and appoints the "one God" as the God and Father of Jesus Christ--that isn't going to get the mileage you might hope for. First of all, NO Biblical text DENIES that Jesus is God. And many Biblical texts AFFIRM it You seem...
forums.carm.org
Post no. 288
- Mormonism and the council of "gods" in Ps. 82, by Matt Slick
And yet God still acknowledges them in the OT. I'm not sure what your point is. Paul "acknowledged" the false goddess Artemis of the Ephesians. Yes, Paul acknowledged that the Ephesians worshipped an idol, a non-existent God. What exactly is that supposed to prove? How does that contrast...
forums.carm.org
Post no. 38
- Keeping the commandments and LDS theology
Whatever one defines it as--God the Son still died--and that--to bring eternal life to mankind. Translation: "No matter what you respond, I'm going to just ignore it and repeat my same objection". And you wonder why people ignore your "bumps".
forums.carm.org
Post no. 269
- Keeping the commandments and LDS theology
I believe he meant what he said when he said, "I said, ye are gods". Don't you? That's not what he said. I believe you are paraphrasing your traditions into what he said. completing the above phrase, There is no god besides me - implies there are other gods, they are not beside him There is no...
forums.carm.org
Post no. 161
- Keeping the commandments and LDS theology
That could even be applied to Jesus Christ. How does that make them any less than real gods? Any less deified? Any less part of the Divine Council? Bonnie--they are real gods--and all the king's horses, and all the king's men--can't restore the damage that does to your theology. How does...
forums.carm.org
Post no. 123
- Keeping the commandments and LDS theology
That could even be applied to Jesus Christ. How does that make them any less than real gods? Any less deified? Any less part of the Divine Council? Bonnie--they are real gods--and all the king's horses, and all the king's men--can't restore the damage that does to your theology. How does...
forums.carm.org
Post no. 98
- Keeping the commandments and LDS theology
Btw, what this proves is that Mormons simply don't know the Bible. All they have are their "proof-texts". They have a "script", as in "here are the verses we use to prove , , and ." But if you take them off script, they're lost. They don't know what to do. If you give them other passages...
forums.carm.org
Post no. 93
- Keeping the commandments and LDS theology
Psa. 82:1 God takes His astand in His own congregation; He judges in the midst of the rulers. (NASB) The NET Bible states: "The present translation assumes that the Hebrew term אֱלֹהִים (ʾelohim, “gods”) here refers to the pagan gods who supposedly comprise El’s assembly according to...
forums.carm.org
- Keeping the commandments and LDS theology
Psa. 82:1 God takes His astand in His own congregation; He judges in the midst of the rulers. (NASB) The NET Bible states: "The present translation assumes that the Hebrew term אֱלֹהִים (ʾelohim, “gods”) here refers to the pagan gods who supposedly comprise El’s assembly according to...
forums.carm.org
So, reread what I wrote in these posts and then you will see that I HAVE ENGAGED you about this--won't you?--and also, the questions about Ps. 82 and the "gods' which you have YET to answer--why is that, dberrie?
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dberrie2020
Super Member
Theo--you haven't shown where these gods don't exist, in reality:
Psalm 82:1--English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
Nor have you explained why God would take His place in a divine council of gods--which does not even exist.
Theo1689
Well-known member
I've explained the TRUE meaning of this Psalm to you at LEAST 20 times.
So has Bonnie.
You simply reject it.
In the meantime, you CONTINUE TO IGNORE:
Deut. 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else besides him.
Deut. 4:39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.
Deut. 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me:
2 Sam. 7:22 Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God: for there is none like thee, neither is there any God besides thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.
2 Sam. 22:32 For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God?
1 Kings 8:60 That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else.
1 Chr. 17:20 O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God besides thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.
Isa. 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isa. 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God. 7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them. 8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God besides me? yea,there is no God; I know not any.
Is. 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God besides me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Is. 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else besides me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
Isa. 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Joel 2:27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
Mark 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
1Cor. 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
And not to mention that, but there is ALSO:
Alma 11:2727 And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God.
Alma 11:28 Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God?
Alma 11:29 And he answered, No.
Alma 11:44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.
Alma 14:5 And the people went forth and witnessed against them—testifying that they had reviled against the law, and their lawyers and judges of the land, and also of all the people that were in the land; and also testified that there was but one God, and that he should send his Son among the people, but he should not save them; and many such things did the people testify against Alma and Amulek. Now this was done before the chief judge of the land.
Moses 1:6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.
Bonnie
Super Member
Hence, my "turtle on a turntable" picture...round and round and round we go. Have you ever seen a better example of the Mormon debate tactics nos. 3-5 in my signature as we have seen here?
No one has said these "gods" do not exist--just that they are not true gods, true deity, but are human judges with the lofty title of "god" because they judge in God's place--and who were doing a lousy job of it.
Hence, we see the spiritual equivalent of this:
dberrie2020
Super Member
As has already been discussed--pitting scriptures against one another does little but to render the Bible an unreliable source of truth.
How do you collate Psalm82:1--with the scriptures which testify to the gods of the divine council--which God takes His place in?
How do you collate the OT scriptures above--with the testimony of the NT text--which separates out the very God of the OT(God the Son)--from the "one God" of the Biblical NT?
With the God of the OT testifying He also had a God and Father?
Theo1689
Well-known member
... says the person hiding behind Ps. 82:6 to try to run away from Deut. 4:35,39, Deut. 32:39, 1 Kings 8:60, Ps. 86:10, Isa. 44:6,8, Isa. 45:5,21,22, Isa. 46:9, Mark 12:32, 1 Cor. 8:4, etc. etc.
I'M not the one "pitting scriptures against one another". YOU are.
We've already explained Ps. 82 (MANY times) in a way that is consistent with ALL Scripture.
YOU are the one pitting your misinterpretation of Ps. 82 in a way that contradicts Deut. 4:35,39, Deut. 32:39, 1 Kings 8:60, Ps. 86:10, Isa. 44:6,8, Isa. 45:5,21,22, Isa. 46:9, Mark 12:32, 1 Cor. 8:4, etc. etc.
Asked and answered. At LEAST 20 times.
How do YOU "collate" Deut. 4:35,39, Deut. 32:39, 1 Kings 8:60, Ps. 86:10, Isa. 44:6,8, Isa. 45:5,21,22, Isa. 46:9, Mark 12:32, 1 Cor. 8:4, etc. etc.???
Bonnie
Super Member
No, it just renders ridiculous the claims of those who REFUSE to look at ALL scripture and take ALL of it into consideration, but instead, isolate verses, cherry-picking them in an attempt to force the Bible to fit their heretical beliefs, rather than the other way around. For shame.
En Hakkore
Well-known member
Good evening, dberrie... the writer (singular) responsible for this psalm believed that these deities existed, as did numerous other authors of texts in the Hebrew Bible. Whether these divine beings actually existed is another question entirely, as is what relation, if any, ancient Israelite monolatry has to the polytheism that Joseph Smith envisioned.
Kind regards,
Jonathan
brotherofJared
Well-known member
What's your point? How does that change anything concerning Ps 82 and this discussion about it?