Mormonism and the council of "gods" in Ps. 82, by Matt Slick

How does that explain Heiser's testimony?

https://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1092&context=fac_dis

ABSTRACT THE DIVINE COUNCIL IN LATE CANONICAL AND NON-CANONICAL SECOND TEMPLE JEWISH LITERATURE

Michael S. Heiser Under the supervision of Professor Michael V. Fox At the University of Wisconsin-Madison

"Biblical scholarship has reached a consensus with respect to the presence of a divine assembly of gods in Israel’s faith."



When the thread was present on the old boards with Markk--I relayed to him what Heiser wrote--and he sent me a retort that Heiser didn't believe those gods were real gods. I stated Heiser did indeed believe they were real, heavenly gods referred to in Psalm 82--and elsewhere. So--Markk asked Heiser himself if Heiser believed the gods were real, heavenly gods--and then, Markk posted Heiser's return reply. Heiser stated he believed the gods were real, heavenly gods--because he couldn't reject what the Bible plainly taught.

So--here is another article:

READINGS OF PSALM 82 IN CONTEMPORARY SCHOLARSHIP---The Journal of Hebrew Scriptures

http://www.jhsonline.org/Articles/article_144.pdf

"It is a commonplace of biblical scholarship to affirm the mythological character of Psalm 82. Most scholars by now agree that the -'!+ that come under divine judgment and are condemned to death in this Psalm are not human leaders, or judges, but divine beings, members of a divine council."

What is your evidence those testimonies aren't true?



I take it that it is in reference to "most scholars". The notable scholarship above is by notable scholars. They should know, and--if it was not true--it would be questioned by a flood of negative responses by the scholars themselves.

So--please post where the scholars question where the majority of scholars don't believe--"scholarship has reached a consensus with respect to the presence of a divine assembly of gods in Israel’s faith."
But there are OTHER scholars who disagree--aren't there, dberrie? This just shows that there is a lot of scholastic opinion out there--doesn't it? Scholastic opinions are just that--opinions, aren't they? NOT necessarily the truth? They may THINK it is the truth, but that doesn't necessarily mean it IS, does it?

Your second link just has "most scholars" in it--but does not list who these "most scholars" ARE--does it?

And Heiser has stated that Mormons misuse his research and conclusions about Ps. 82--hasn't he?

I had a link to some who disagree, didn't I, dberrie? Remember this?:

Psalm 82:6 Commentaries: I said, "You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High. (biblehub.com)

And I had excerpts from Dr. James White's articles, ,didn't I, dberrie? And he disagrees with Heiser and YOU, doesn't he, dberrie?
I remember what Markk wrote on here and some of what Heiser wrote--he did believe these "gods" existed and were heavenly--but he stated that they were created spirit beings, not like YHWH, Who is UNcreated and unique--didn't he? He does NOT believe that this Psalm is about men becoming gods--remember where I quoted him writing that?

But it is telling that you must continually resort to Heiser to back up what you want to believe about Ps. 82, isn't it--even though he has stated that Mormons misuse his research and conclusions about Ps. 82, and that the psalm isn't about men becoming gods--hasn't he, dberrie?

Now, when are you going to answer my questions about Ps. 82, dberrie? Why do you keep ignoring them?

1. IF these "gods" in Ps. 82 are true deity, WHY are they judging unjustly and favoring the wicked? Wouldn't that be a sin? Wouldn't that make them like Satan and his demons? SINNERS?

2. IF these "gods" in Ps. 82 are true deity and are judging in the earth, HOW would people contact them so they COULD render judgments in religious and civil matters?

3. Do you think that these "gods" in Ps. 82 are TRUE DEITY? Yes or no?

so when are you going to answer them?
 
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But there are OTHER scholars who disagree--aren't there, dberrie?

It's beginning to be increasingly more difficult to find a scholar who does not believe the Biblical writers believed in the reality of the divine council of heavenly gods. There is just too much evidence to the contrary, as of now.

And just so one might come up with one--does not mean the conclusions here are false:

"scholarship has reached a consensus with respect to the presence of a divine assembly of gods in Israel’s faith."

Most scholars by now agree that the -'!+ that come under divine judgment and are condemned to death in this Psalm are not human leaders, or judges, but divine beings, members of a divine council."

What is your evidence to the contrary?

This just shows that there is a lot of scholastic opinion out there--doesn't it?
Again---Most scholars by now agree that the -'!+ that come under divine judgment and are condemned to death in this Psalm are not human leaders, or judges, but divine beings, members of a divine council."

That flies in the face of your theology. Very friendly to LDS theology.

Scholastic opinions are just that--opinions, aren't they? NOT necessarily the truth? They may THINK it is the truth, but that doesn't necessarily mean it IS, does it?

Your second link just has "most scholars" in it--but does not list who these "most scholars" ARE--does it?

Again--what is your evidence most scholars don't believe the above claim is true? It doesn't say all scholars--but, most scholars. And they have good evidence for their claims, IMO.
 
It's beginning to be increasingly more difficult to find a scholar who does not believe the Biblical writers believed in the reality of the divine council of heavenly gods. There is just too much evidence to the contrary, as of now.

And just so one might come up with one--does not mean the conclusions here are false:

"scholarship has reached a consensus with respect to the presence of a divine assembly of gods in Israel’s faith."

Most scholars by now agree
that the -'!+ that come under divine judgment and are condemned to death in this Psalm are not human leaders, or judges, but divine beings, members of a divine council."


What is your evidence to the contrary?


Again---Most scholars by now agree that the -'!+ that come under divine judgment and are condemned to death in this Psalm are not human leaders, or judges, but divine beings, members of a divine council."

That flies in the face of your theology. Very friendly to LDS theology.



Again--what is your evidence most scholars don't believe the above claim is true? It doesn't say all scholars--but, most scholars. And they have good evidence for their claims, IMO.
Where did I write that these "most scholars" did NOT believe what they wrote? You are erecting this, aren't you?

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I have no doubt that they believe what they claimed to believe--but that wasn't my argument, was it? Since I wrote this:

"Scholastic opinions are just that--opinions, aren't they? NOT necessarily the truth? They may THINK it is the truth, but that doesn't necessarily mean it IS, does it?"

Unfortunately for LDS theology, the following verses put Ps. 82 into proper perspective and help us come to the true understanding of what God means:

28 Biblical Passages Which Explicitly Teach There is Only One God | Mormons in Transition (irr.org)

This site lists 28--Theo and I have both listed them on here before, haven't we? But THESE verses listed are very friendly to TRUE Christian theology and very UNfriendly to the abysmally low theology and Christology of Mormonism--aren't they?
 
I'll focus on the period of ancient Israel and leave any discussion about the first century and New Testament writings for another time as they do not relate directly to understanding Hebrew Bible texts within their own historical context.
:rolleyes: Yea, right. Why don't you just leave it out and quit trying to control the conversation?
With respect to your question about whether monotheism precludes the existence of other gods... by very definition, yes.
If the first-century church were monotheists then who was Jesus Christ to them? Paul clearly separates him from God.
The rhetoric that Deutero-Isaiah engages in leaves no room for any equation of idols and real gods. There is a lengthy description of idol production (44:9-20) that is mocking in tone, people worshipping leftover pieces of wood. While earlier texts criticize the fashioning of idols and order their destruction, they are distinguished from the gods they represent whose existence may nonetheless be assumed, though inferior to YHWH and not to be worshipped by Israelites (henotheism) or at all (monolatry). In Deutero-Isaiah this distinction is obliterated... idols are just idols, there is nothing behind them, or other gods are nothing more than idols, the mere fabrications of human hands.

Prior to the aforementioned mockery of idols, the deity declares that he is first and last and there is no god except for (besides) him (44:6) --- the idea of lesser gods who are not 'beside' but underneath him exploits an ambiguity in English, not Hebrew, and is excluded by the prefacing 'first and last'. Moments later the deity asks rhetorically if there is a god except for him, answering he is not aware of any such being (44:8). Following the attack on idols and those who fashion them, the deity declares there is none but him from where the sun rises to where it sets (45:6) --- the gods of other nations are denied existence, no where in the known world is there a god but YHWH.
Are these the same gods in Ps 82?
This rhetoric denies existence to any deity but YHWH
To the contrary, it specifically acknowledges the existence of these other gods and their inferiority to YHWH. To deny their existence is the same a sticking one's head in the sand obscuring their own vision, but no hindering the vision of anyone else. Clearly, God has no problem acknowledging them. Certainly, Israel had no problem acknowledging them. And then we have Ps 82 where God specifically calls them gods and then Jesus Christ supports the text saying that the scriptures cannot be broken.
(that the Jews were monotheists and strove to preserve this belief and their culture amidst the polytheist Greeks and later Romans is well-established)
That doesn't mean it was right. As you point out, they clearly shifted. Like the protestant church hasn't given the Trinity a second thought even though the parent church is the one who established it, it seems that once control is exerted, it's not easily reversed. It's clear from the New Testament that monolatry was again being asserted. Nowhere in the OT do we see the Godhead so clearly defined and Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. All three Gods and yet they remained true to one God, can you guess which one of those three it was?
 
:rolleyes: Yea, right. Why don't you just leave it out and quit trying to control the conversation?
The poster with whom I was actually in dialogue invited me to respond to whichever points I wanted and I simply explained my choice.

To the contrary, it specifically acknowledges the existence of these other gods and their inferiority to YHWH.
By all means, please point to where in Deutero-Isaiah (the context of my assertion) YHWH is reported to acknowledge the existence of other deities, inferior or otherwise.

Kind regards,
Jonathan
 
The poster with whom I was actually in dialogue invited me to respond to whichever points I wanted and I simply explained my choice.
So rather than argue your point, you choose to continue to try to control the conversation.
By all means, please point to where in Deutero-Isaiah (the context of my assertion) YHWH is reported to acknowledge the existence of other deities, inferior or otherwise.
Do you see where it refers to gods? Where it says there are none beside me? Right there.
 
So rather than argue your point, you choose to continue to try to control the conversation.
I argued several points as I was invited to... how that constitutes controlling the conversation is anybody's guess.

Do you see where it refers to gods? Where it says there are none beside me? Right there.
That linguistic sleight of hand was already dealt with in the post to which you responded. Got anything else?

Kind regards,
Jonathan
 
So rather than argue your point, you choose to continue to try to control the conversation.

Do you see where it refers to gods? Where it says there are none beside me? Right there.
Mormon Canon is quite clear before 1836 that only ONE GOD exists
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:rolleyes: Yea, right. Why don't you just leave it out and quit trying to control the conversation?

If the first-century church were monotheists then who was Jesus Christ to them? Paul clearly separates him from God.

Are these the same gods in Ps 82?

To the contrary, it specifically acknowledges the existence of these other gods and their inferiority to YHWH. To deny their existence is the same a sticking one's head in the sand obscuring their own vision, but no hindering the vision of anyone else. Clearly, God has no problem acknowledging them. Certainly, Israel had no problem acknowledging them. And then we have Ps 82 where God specifically calls them gods and then Jesus Christ supports the text saying that the scriptures cannot be broken.

That doesn't mean it was right. As you point out, they clearly shifted. Like the protestant church hasn't given the Trinity a second thought even though the parent church is the one who established it, it seems that once control is exerted, it's not easily reversed. It's clear from the New Testament that monolatry was again being asserted. Nowhere in the OT do we see the Godhead so clearly defined and Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. All three Gods and yet they remained true to one God, can you guess which one of those three it was?
Yes, their monotheism WAS correct--God declared it all throughout the history of the Jews. He declared that He only is god and apart from Him there is NO GOD. ALL others called "gods" are "so-called gods" and "NO gods by nature."

On the old boards, I think a Mormon on here actually wrote that God punished the Israelites for BEING monotheistic, though that is a paraphrase. That was one of the silliest things I ever saw on here. I think I archived it, but would need to double-check.

As for the Trinity, while the term used to describe God's nature wasn't developed until the third century, the concept was fully recognized from the Biblical witness. But then, there are other terms that were developed to describe concepts found in the Bible--like Incarnation, vicarious atonement, virgin birth.
 
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Yes, their monotheism WAS correct--God declared it all throughout the history of the Jews. He declared that He only is god and apart from Him there is NO GOD. ALL others called "gods" are "so-called gods" and "NO gods by nature."
Could you explain for us how the gods of the divine council--which God takes His place in--those gods being the "sons of the Most High"--are not gods by nature?

Psalm 82---English Standard Version

1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
2 “How long will you judge unjustly
and show partiality to the wicked? Selah
3 Give justice to the weak and the fatherless;
maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”
5 They have neither knowledge nor understanding,
they walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 I said, “You are gods,
sons of the Most High, all of you;
7 nevertheless, like men you shall die,
and fall like any prince.”[a]
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth;
for you shall inherit all the nations!
 
Could you explain for us how the gods of the divine council--which God takes His place in--those gods being the "sons of the Most High"--are not gods by nature?

Psalm 82---English Standard Version

1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
2 “How long will you judge unjustly
and show partiality to the wicked? Selah
3 Give justice to the weak and the fatherless;
maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”
5 They have neither knowledge nor understanding,
they walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 I said, “You are gods,
sons of the Most High, all of you;
7 nevertheless, like men you shall die,
and fall like any prince.”[a]
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth;
for you shall inherit all the nations!
I asked YOU if these "gods" in Ps. 82 were DEITY BY NATURE...didn't I? You have yet to answer such a simple question....why?

Can you please explain to me why you keep ignoring ALL of the posts I have posted on here that explain WHY these human rulers are called "gods"? And explain to me WHY you keep asking the same question over and over again, that I have answered many times? Are you THAT anxious to keep demonstrating Mormon tactics nos. 3 and 4 in my signature? Do you think my answer will change?
Mormonism and the council of "gods" in Ps. 82, by Matt Slick | Page 3 | CARM Forums

LOTS of posts, aren't there?

Mormonism and the council of "gods" in Ps. 82, by Matt Slick | CARM Forums

Mormonism and the council of "gods" in Ps. 82, by Matt Slick | CARM Forums

Keeping the commandments and LDS theology | Page 14 | CARM Forums

Keeping the commandments and LDS theology | Page 9 | CARM Forums

I think I did answer why I do NOT think these "gods" in Ps. 82 are deity by nature, but corrupt human judges who rule and render judgments in God's name....so why do you keep asking me? And doesn't Exodus call human judges "gods" in a few places?
Are all uses of the word "gods" in the Bible a reference to real gods?

"Whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things..." (Phi. 3:19)

Is the belly a real, true god? Bellies exist, but are they deity by nature?

Now, when will you finally answer my simple questions about this Psalm? Are they THAT difficult?

1. IF these gods are real deities, WHY are they judging unjustly and favoring the wicked? Wouldn't that be a sin? Wouldn't that make them like demons?

.2 IF these gods are supposed to judge on earth, HOW would mortals contact them so they COULD render judgments in civil and religious matters?

3. Do YOU think these "gods" in Ps. 82 are DEITY BY NATURE? Yes or no?
 
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That linguistic sleight of hand was already dealt with in the post to which you responded. Got anything else?
LOL. "dealt with". "slight of hand".
It appears that you are arguing with your imagination. No one has dealt with anything. I've answered your question and you have deflected the statement. You asked where gods were mentioned. I answered it specifically where they are mentioned. The passage clearly states the supremacy of YHWH among the gods. Ps 82's gods are not idols unless you think that idols are capable of judging anything or that any idols are sons of the most High [God].
 
LOL. "dealt with". "slight of hand".
It appears that you are arguing with your imagination. No one has dealt with anything. I've answered your question and you have deflected the statement. You asked where gods were mentioned. I answered it specifically where they are mentioned. The passage clearly states the supremacy of YHWH among the gods. Ps 82's gods are not idols unless you think that idols are capable of judging anything or that any idols are sons of the most High [God].
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Yes, their monotheism WAS correct--God declared it all throughout the history of the Jews.
Apparently, you don't understand the argument. Apparently, EK is aware that there was a shift in Israel's religion from monolatry to monotheism. You seem not to be aware of that or simply in denial. The Old Testament was redacted to remove any reference to other Gods that the ruling class wanted to get rid of. As I pointed out in my post, the New Testament drives the narrative back to monolatry which appears throughout the New Testament but driven back to monotheism by the then prevailing Hellenistic philosophies.

So, your little snippet is incorrect. Your opinion is that monotheism WAS correct, but the evidence suggests otherwise and your religion is just stuck in a rut.
As for the Trinity, while the term used to describe God's nature wasn't developed until the third century, the concept was fully recognized from the Biblical witness.
No. It isn't recognized at all in the Bible. Nothing in the New Testament makes the claim or even alludes to three personalities in one being. That is a definition you all have contrived to support your religion's facade. And rather than address the issues, you just keep offering your opinion. You don't even TRY to explain. There is no way a single entity is going to appear to mortal man as three entities unless that single entity is lying. Can God lie? That would be willful deceit. Care to explain how the three beings that were present at the Savior's baptism and how that fits your Trinity doctrine? Or do you want to give me your opinion again?
 
I asked YOU if these "gods" in Ps. 82 were DEITY BY NATURE...didn't I?
Well, that question has been answered.
You have yet to answer such a simple question....why?
And this one too. The answer is simple, they are the sons of the most High, the same as is Jesus. We know that Jesus is God, right?
Can you please explain to me why you keep ignoring ALL of the posts I have posted on here that explain WHY these human rulers are called "gods"?
They have not been ignored. They have all been answered. The idea that these are humans is not supported by the scriptures. The idea is your opinion and we really can't argue your opinion. You're entitled to it but that does not make it true.
And explain to me WHY you keep asking the same question over and over again, that I have answered many times?
I think it's because you haven't answered the question. Just like you are not answering the question now. Instead, you answer the question with a complaint which amounts to questions that we've answered. Where is the answers to our question? According to the text, those gods are gods by nature. They are the offspring of the most High [God]. You have your answer. Now answer ours.

In case you've forgotten what the question is, "Could you explain for us how the gods of the divine council--which God takes His place in--those gods being the "sons of the Most High"--are not gods by nature?"
It's not a difficult question. we know these are not idols and we know these are not humans (however, you think they are), but that does not address how they are not gods by nature. Regardless of whether or not you believe they are humans or divine beings in some preexistent, premortal state or not. The verse claims they are the sons of the Most High [God]. That implies that they are gods by nature.

Now, you will probably go with the math formula that db explained where your reference will subtract from this reference. But the fact is, if one is to take the scriptures as a whole, sons of God are gods by nature. If it were not so, then one could argue that Jesus isn't God by nature. He's a son of God, is he not?

The only way you can maintain your base is by denying the scriptures and inventing your own which is what happens when you supersede one verse with another.
 
I don't believe I did. I made a claim. I've shown in every case, that each instance addresses the existence of other gods either explicitly or implicitly.

I believe it is you all who are attempting to try to put some sort of "spin" on the verses. Bonnie, the scriptures explicitly state that there are other gods, even word for word stating that there are other gods. If one is to believe the Bible, then one has to accept that there are other gods, but to us, there is but one God, the Father. The sooner you all are able to accept that, the sooner we will be able to address the other things in the Bible that you all don't believe.
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Frankly, Bonnie, I cannot make heads or tails of your diatribe in this post. I follow the link and the content from your link here, doesn't match the landing page. What does "I was on the JW and CATH board for 4 years each" have to do with the information in post 310? How does that apply?

I can't make any sense of this:
"But these could be the "divine council" in heaven, that God was "standing" in the midst of, while both God AND the holy angels LOOKED TO EARTH and saw the corruption of earthly rulers there, especially in God's own, anointed people, the Israelites. Couldn't they? It does NOT necessarily mean that those who are being judged are in heaven WITH GOD."

What is that? What does it have to do with our question?

What I find strange is your ability to quote the questions but not the answers. Why post post numbers when you took the time to post the actual question? Are you trying to make your "answers" difficult to find?
 
"Whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things..." (Phi. 3:19)
Those are not the gods of Ps 82, are they?
1. IF these gods are real deities, WHY are they judging unjustly and favoring the wicked? Wouldn't that be a sin? Wouldn't that make them like demons?
These were answered, Bonnie. Your definition of what a god is is obviously not God's definition. Your idea of nature is also questionable. My understanding of nature in this context is capacity or the ability to rise up to that capacity. Being an heir to the throne indicates capacity. But not everyone will rise to that capacity. We can see that no two children are the same, even if they look the same and have the same environment. One might take a different road than the other. It is not a reflection of their upbringing or their physical nature. The same is true of every person ever born. Our parents might be successful and their children bums. The parent might be religious and the children atheists. We are all free to make choices about our destiny regardless of our parentage, but that does not mean we didn't have the capacity to receive and actuate our inheritance.

It would probably be a good idea to accept what God is saying and not try to change what he said to something else and there is no doubt that God called these beings gods. If there was any question, one only needs to refer to Jesus repeating the same message and declaring that the scriptures cannot be broken. Heed them. Quit breaking them.
3. Do YOU think these "gods" in Ps. 82 are DEITY BY NATURE? Yes or no?
This question has been unequivocally answered, Quit equivocating.
 
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