Mormonism is not Biblical.

dberrie2020

Well-known member
What do we find in the BoM, as far as salvational doctrines go--that cannot be found in the Biblical NT?
Nothing, that I am aware of. I believe the Book of Mormon, in some cases-- expounds upon some principles further than the Biblical text does, and there are some things in the Biblical text which expounds upon further than the Book of Mormon, IMO.

As the Book of Mormon claims--it's a second witness to the reality of Jesus Christ.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
You think the OT teaches differently than the NT?!

I believe the Old Testament and the New Testament are two different covenants.

Salvation is by grace, through faith, NOT BY WORKS (Eph. 2:8-9, Tit. 3:5, 2 Tim. 1:9, Rom. 4:1-5, Rom. 11:5-6, etc. etc. etc.

Mormons deny this, and ignore these passages, and run away to a misinterpretation of James 2, claiming on must "be obedient" and "do works" and "endure to the end" and "be baptized" all these other requirements to be saved.

Hmmm. Imagine that:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version:
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Matthew 10:22---King James Version

22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.


Acts 2:38---King James Version

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Shouldn't we add keeping the commandments to that list?


Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Why do you ignore these verses and focus ONLY on James 2:24, as if these other verses do not exist? Have you forgotten what ELSE James says, in his epistle? He said if we keep the whole law by stumble in one point, we are guilty of ALL of it.
We don't live under the Mosaic Law.

James2:24 was pertaining to the gospel--

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Theo1689 said:
Salvation is by grace, through faith, NOT BY WORKS (Eph. 2:8-9, Tit. 3:5, 2 Tim. 1:9, Rom. 4:1-5, Rom. 11:5-6, etc. etc. etc.

Mormons deny this, and ignore these passages, and run away to a misinterpretation of James 2, claiming on must "be obedient" and "do works" and "endure to the end" and "be baptized" all these other requirements to be saved.

Hmmm. Imagine that:

I'm guessing that you didn't bother to read those passages, so let me quote them for you, since you couldn't be bothered to read them:

Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

2 Tim. 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Tit. 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Rom. 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Rom. 11:5
So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.




What part of "not by works" don't you understand?



But like I've pointed out many times, Mormons can't deal with those verses.
They have a "script", and their "script" lists a few verses they think support "works-salvation", but they have NO idea how to address the passages above.

And sadly, the "script" verses Mormons quote, not only do not make those above "not by works" passages go away, but they don't even CONTRADICT them!

So you STILL have to deal with the fact that salvation is "NOT by works".


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version:
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

That is correct.
This is NOT saying they are saved "because" they obey him.
This is a verse that describes a CORRELATION, not a "causation".
You simply ASSUME a "causation", even though your assumption CONTRADICTS the "not by works" passages.

This passage is saying that those who are saved WILL obey him.
What part of "not by works" don't you understand?

Matthew 10:22---King James Version
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Again, what part of "not by works" don't you understand?
However you interpret Matt. 10:22, or any other verse, you have to make sure you do NOT interpret it in a way that contradicts other passages, such as the "not by works" passages.

"Enduring to the end" is not some "requirement" for salvation.
It is simply an indication of who WILL be saved.
Not everyone in the church congregation is saved.
How do we tell, since we can't read hearts?
Well, those who endure to the end are the ones who are saved.
They are not saved "because" they endure to the end.
They endure to the end BECAUSE they are (already) saved.
They endure to the end BECAUSE they are held in the Father's hand (John 10:28-29), and no on can snatch them out of His hand.

Acts 2:38---King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

What part of "not by works" don't you understand?

That doesn't say that one needs to "repent" and "be baptized" as requirements to "salvation". The verse doesn't even MENTION "salvation".

And you should be aware that repentance doesn't come from within us, it is something GOD gives us (Acts 11:18, 2 Tim. 2:25).

Shouldn't we add keeping the commandments to that list?

I would not recommend it, no.
You need to believe God.
And God said, "NOT by works".

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Yes, and if you understand the purpose of the Law, you understand why Jesus said this. God gave us the commandments, to convince us that we are UNABLE to keep them, and we need to depend on the mercy of God to be saved.

Rom. 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

What part of "not by works" don't you understand?



The purpose of the Law was to (1) convict us of our sin, and (2) lead us to Christ:

Gal. 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,

What part of "not by works" don't you understand?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
We don't live under the Mosaic Law.

James2:24 was pertaining to the gospel--

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

We've addressed this SO many times for you in the past.
But you simply IGNORE it.

Just like you ignore the following:

Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Just like you ignore the following:

2 Tim. 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,


Just like you ignore the following:

Tit. 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


Just like you ignore the following:

Rom. 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,


Just like you ignore the following:

Rom. 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.





So for the millionth time, let's address your proof-text where you take an interpretation that CONTRADICTS the rest of the Bible:


James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

As Jeff Durbin likes to point out, this passage is NOT about "faith vs. works". This passage is about "living faith" vs. "dead faith".

Here he gives and example of someone who CLAIMS to have faith. That faith may be true, or it may be false. The fact that he "does not have works" shows that the faith is false. He then says, "can THAT faith save him" (the word "that" which is found in the ESV is justified, because the word "faith" is articulated, specifying a particular kind of faith, since it has the definite article, referring back to the previous mention of "faith".

"Can that faith save him?" is a rhetorical question, and the obvious answer is "no, it can't". But it's not because he has a true "faith", but simply hasn't added "works" to it. It is because he has a "dead faith" (v.17), instead of a "living" faith.

15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

If one truly has faith, they will not simply give "well-wishing". They will actually DO something to help the needy. True faith WORKS.

In fact, I believe John MacArthur has written a book called, "Faith Works", which you would do well to read. For that matter, you would do well to read the two chapters on "Faith" in C.S. Lewis' famous work, "Mere Christianity".

James 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

"I will show you my faith BY my works".

Works are not simply something you "add" to your faith, they are something that DEMONSTRATES the faith you already have. They are the FRUITS of a living faith, the EVIDENCE of a living faith, the JUSTIFICATION of a proclamation of faith.

You can tell if someone has faith BY their works.
If someone claims to have faith, but has no works, they don't have "faith", and their claim is false. If they had a true faith, a living faith, that faith would RESULT in good works.

Works aren't something you "add" to faith.
Works are something that FLOWS from a true, living faith.

But works aren't "required" for salvation (which is "not by works", Eph. 2:9, 2 Tim. 1:9, Tit. 3:5, Rom. 4:1-6, Rom. 11:5-6, etc. etc.), they are something that provide EVIDENCE for faith, which faith saves.

19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!

Now James gets into the double meaning of "pistis". It can mean "faith" or "trust", or it can simply mean, "acknowledge something as true", which is how the demons believe. A faith or trust WILL result in good works (as explained above).

20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

The term "justified" can sometimes mean "saved" in Biblical context, but it can also men "vindicated". And this is how it is being here. James began this narrative with someone who simply CLAIMED to have faith, but did not have works. And James explained how works DEMONSTRATE a true faith ("I will SHOW you my faith BY my works"). So when we see works, they JUSTIFY the man's claim to having faith.


So we go back to the "not by works" passages (Eph. 2:8-9, 2 Tim. 1:9, Tit. 3:5, Rom. 4:1-6, Rom. 11:5-6, etc. etc.) which you will not touch with a ten-foot pole.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
great post, Theo! Of course, we have addressed and explained this verse ad infinitum. Another such place is here:


post no. 170. There is a link to another post in this link.

I put down some examples from the past on here, where we did address this verse, both on here and on the Lutheran forum. Our answers won't change....nor should they!
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
great post, Theo! Of course, we have addressed and explained this verse ad infinitum. Another such place is here:

Thank you.
I put a lot of time into it, so I saved it for future use.

We know Mormons will never address it, but they will continue to quote the verse, because doing so is "easy".
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Thank you.
I put a lot of time into it, so I saved it for future use.

We know Mormons will never address it, but they will continue to quote the verse, because doing so is "easy".
Good idea. I have started to do the same, what with the propensity of these types of boards crashing, sometimes, so we lose links. I have started in the past year of so, to save more of my actual posts--and posts of others--rather than just links, though I do include links,, as per the rules.

One point--as I have asked Mormons on here, does God give His children DEAD gifts? Since faith is the "gift of God" (along with grace and salvation), then why would anyone think He gives DEAD faith as a gift?

But of course, Mormons prefer to remain blind in their complacent belief in their church and lying, false prophet founder. They must maintain their testimony at all cost--even at the cost of the truth and their eternal souls. Sad. They need our prayers and love.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
We've addressed this SO many times for you in the past.
But you simply IGNORE it.

Just like you ignore the following:

Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Just like you ignore the following:

2 Tim. 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,


Just like you ignore the following:

Tit. 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


Just like you ignore the following:

Rom. 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,


Just like you ignore the following:

Rom. 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Could you please give us a cite where I have ever claimed we are saved by works?

All who are saved--will be saved by God's grace.

The question left to ask--who does God give His grace unto life to--as a personal reception?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version:
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
One point--as I have asked Mormons on here, does God give His children DEAD gifts? Since faith is the "gift of God" (along with grace and salvation), then why would anyone think He gives DEAD faith as a gift?

I'm not sure where that point will take the critics here--seeing the Savior testified all will be judged according to what they did with His gifts--and that for the "joy of thy lord"--or--"outer darkness":

Matthew 25:14-30---King James Version
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
 

organgrinder

Well-known member
Could you please give us a cite where I have ever claimed we are saved by works?

All who are saved--will be saved by God's grace.

The question left to ask--who does God give His grace unto life to--as a personal reception?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version:
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Once again deflecting.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Could you please give us a cite where I have ever claimed we are saved by works?

All who are saved--will be saved by God's grace.

The question left to ask--who does God give His grace unto life to--as a personal reception?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version:
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

You're playing word games here....

You're basically saying that we are saved by grace...
but you need to "obey" to get the grace.
So "grace" is simply the medium to connect the "works" ("obedience") to salvation.

1) You STILL have not demonstrated that Heb. 5:9 allegedly teaches that "obedience" ("works") CAUSES salvation.

2) Heb. 5:9 does NOT actually say that "God gives grace to those who obey Him, BECAUSE they obey Him. (It actually links OBEDIENCE (ie. "works") to salvation, which you deny.

3) Kindly tells what kind of "salvation" you think this referring to, whether you think it is referring to "resurrection", "exaltation", or something else.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
You're playing word games here....

You're basically saying that we are saved by grace...
but you need to "obey" to get the grace.
If we are referring to His grace unto life--as a personal reception--that is the testimony of the Biblical text:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version:
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

So "grace" is simply the medium to connect the "works" ("obedience") to salvation.
This is where the critics start adding the adjectives to confuse the point.

No one has maintained grace is "simply" anything. Grace is much more complex than a medium connecting works to salvation.

The LDS believe God's grace goes to all mankind, as the Atonement shows in the Biblical testimony--all men. That absolves all men from the condemnation of the Fall--through God's grace and free gift to all men--and justifies all men of life. IOW--all men now have the opportunity to inherit eternal life.

His grace unto life--as a personal reception--goes to them which obey and follow God.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10---King James Version
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Could you explain for us how one could avoid Paul's condemnation above for the disobedient--unless they obey the commandments?

John 14:15---King James Version
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

So--is the love of God necessary for eternal life to occur?

1) You STILL have not demonstrated that Heb. 5:9 allegedly teaches that "obedience" ("works") CAUSES salvation.
Could you give us a cite where I have claimed our obedience causes salvation?

God's grace is the means of salvation. God gives His grace unto life--as a personal reception--to them which obey and follow Him:

Revelation 22:14---King James Version
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
If we are referring to His grace unto life--as a personal reception--that is the testimony of the Biblical text:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version:
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Explain to us what you think that verse means.
Do you think it means that we are "required" to "obey him" in order to be saved?


The LDS believe God's grace goes to all mankind, as the Atonement shows in the Biblical testimony--all men. That absolves all men from the condemnation of the Fall--through God's grace and free gift to all men--and justifies all men of life. IOW--all men now have the opportunity to inherit eternal life.

You are equivocating about the meaning of "life".
You first say that they HAVE "life", but then you say they only have the "opportunity" for eternal life.

His grace unto life--as a personal reception--goes to them which obey and follow God.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10---King James Version
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

So if you want to take this literally, then NOBODY will be saved, since we have all sinned.
I don't think you're interpreting it correctly.
In fact, I KNOW you're not.

Could you explain for us how one could avoid Paul's condemnation above for the disobedient--unless they obey the commandments?

This is the MORMONISM forum.
It is not for discussing my beliefs.
It's for discussing YOURS.

You are ASSUMING that your misinterpretation is correct, and then trying to shift the burden of proof onto me.

Nope.

YOU need to be the one who not simply "claims" what you think Scripture means, but to PROVE it.

John 14:15---King James Version
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

So--is the love of God necessary for eternal life to occur?

Irrelevant question, which is one reason I don't waste my time answering your question.

Could you give us a cite where I have claimed our obedience causes salvation?

God's grace is the means of salvation. God gives His grace unto life--as a personal reception--to them which obey and follow Him:

Yeah, my "cite" is right there, above, where you answered your own question.
Now please answer my question, do you think the "obey and follow him" is the "requirement" for God's grace?

Revelation 22:14---King James Version
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Are you claiming that the "do his commandments" is a "requirement" for the tree of life?

And when are you going to respond to Eph. 2:8-9, 2 Tim. 1:9, Tit. 3:5, Rom. 4:4-7, and Rom. 11:5-6, all which teach that salvation is "NOT by works"?
 

The Prophet

Active member
Women Prophets in the Old Testament

The label “prophetess” or “woman prophet” (něbī’āh) is attributed to five women in the Old Testament: Miriam (Exod. 15:20), Deborah (Judg. 4:4), Huldah (2 Kings 22:14; 2 Chron. 34:22), Noadiah (Neh. 6:14), and “the prophetess” (Isa. 8:3). Its significance is clear. Miriam claims the Lord “has spoken” through her (Num. 12:2). Deborah says to Barak: “Look, the Lord, the God of Israel, has commanded” (Judg. 4:6). Huldah similarly uses the prophetic introductory formula: “Thus says the Lord God of Israel…” (2 Kings 22:15). Scripture, then, describes a woman prophet as someone through whom God speaks to his people. In this regard, a “prophetess” is no different than her male counterpart, the “prophet” (nābī’). For this reason, I prefer the translation “woman prophet.”



Women Prophets in the New Testament

Luke presents Anna as a “woman prophet” (prophētis), which is the same Greek word the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Old Testament, uses to translate the Hebrew něbī’āh (Luke 2:36). Like the prophet Simeon who is paired with her (2:25–27), Anna is led by the Holy Spirit to speak about Jesus “to all who were looking for the redemption of Jerusalem” (2:38). The masculine gender of the signifiers describing her intended audience suggests Anna prophesies to both men and women. Elsewhere, Luke uses the feminine signifier to define an audience of women only (15:9).



Luke’s depiction of Anna as a prophet anticipates Pentecost, when Mary the mother of Jesus and other women prophesy (Acts 1:14; 2:17). Luke makes another link between Anna and early Christian women prophets when he introduces Philip’s daughters as “virgins who prophesy” (Acts 21:9)



In Revelation, specifically in the letter to Thyatira (Rev. 2:18–29), Jesus criticizes a woman who calls herself a woman prophet—the same word Luke uses for Anna—for “teaching and deceiving my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols” (v. 20). The woman is clearly a leader in the church of Thyatira. But is she a genuine prophet? The prophet Jeremiah makes personal holiness and purity a litmus test for genuine prophecy (Jer. 23:9–40). Jesus, similarly, advises his disciples to expose false prophets by drawing attention to their behavior (Matt. 7:15–23). Unfortunately, the character and behavior of the woman from Thyatira did not meet the litmus test of a genuine prophet. Yet what is often missed is that Jesus does not attack the woman for being a leader, but for being an immoral one.

 

Redeemed

Well-known member
Once upon a time, about 30 years ago, Mormons tried to convince proselytes that Mormonism was "Biblical". They would try to give Biblical arguments, they had missionaries pass out a tract called "The 17 Points of the One True Church" where they quoted Bible verses to try to support Mormon teachings (such as "baptism for the dead"). Back in the day, I received an unsolicited email from a Mormon who tried to convince me to become Mormon. We struck a good friendship and had email exchanges for over 10 years discussing about every aspect of our respective beliefs. He told me he was convinced that EVERY doctrine Mormons believe was found in the Bible. After 10 years of discussion, he was unable to admit that Mormonism was false, but he was able to admit that not all Mormon doctrines are found in the Bible. Of course, he simply spun that into, "That's why we need modern revelation".


Today, Mormons have pretty much given up trying to argue that Mormonism is Biblical. And I have to thank the posters who participate here, for doing such a wonderful job demonstrating the bankruptcy that is Mormonism.

For instance, we have one Mormon poster her (whose nick is near the end of the alphabet, not mentioning any names), who refuses to respond to any critiques of Mormonism.

For instance, we have another Mormon poster here, who tries to defend all his beliefs with speculation and rationalizations (which he calls "common sense" and "logic").

And we have another Mormon poster here (whose nick reminds one of fruit), who quotes one verse to try to defend a belief, but constantly runs away from 30 other passages which contradict his understanding. He proves that Mormons spend 30x more time rejecting the Bible, than they do believing and accepting it.


One can determine their theology by simply reading and believing the Bible, and accepting what is EXPLICITLY taught therein. That is what Christians do.

Or one can determine their theology by "rationalizations" and "speculations", and bizarre undisprovable beliefs such as "men live on the moon, dressing in the Quaker style". That is what Mormons do.

And they end up with completely DIFFERENT theologies.
That's why Mormons have to attack the Bible, and claim it is "not translated correctly", and "corrupt", and "many plain and precious parts missing", which is yet more speculation with ZERO actual evidence.

Jesus said, "Search the Scriptures".
Jesus did NOT say, "Search your imaginations."
I'm sorry that I miss this thread or I wouldn't have started a thread like it. But I am glad I found it, had I not I would've missed out on a lot of good information.
 

Redeemed

Well-known member
Women Prophets in the Old Testament

The label “prophetess” or “woman prophet” (něbī’āh) is attributed to five women in the Old Testament: Miriam (Exod. 15:20), Deborah (Judg. 4:4), Huldah (2 Kings 22:14; 2 Chron. 34:22), Noadiah (Neh. 6:14), and “the prophetess” (Isa. 8:3). Its significance is clear. Miriam claims the Lord “has spoken” through her (Num. 12:2). Deborah says to Barak: “Look, the Lord, the God of Israel, has commanded” (Judg. 4:6). Huldah similarly uses the prophetic introductory formula: “Thus says the Lord God of Israel…” (2 Kings 22:15). Scripture, then, describes a woman prophet as someone through whom God speaks to his people. In this regard, a “prophetess” is no different than her male counterpart, the “prophet” (nābī’). For this reason, I prefer the translation “woman prophet.”



Women Prophets in the New Testament

Luke presents Anna as a “woman prophet” (prophētis), which is the same Greek word the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Old Testament, uses to translate the Hebrew něbī’āh (Luke 2:36). Like the prophet Simeon who is paired with her (2:25–27), Anna is led by the Holy Spirit to speak about Jesus “to all who were looking for the redemption of Jerusalem” (2:38). The masculine gender of the signifiers describing her intended audience suggests Anna prophesies to both men and women. Elsewhere, Luke uses the feminine signifier to define an audience of women only (15:9).



Luke’s depiction of Anna as a prophet anticipates Pentecost, when Mary the mother of Jesus and other women prophesy (Acts 1:14; 2:17). Luke makes another link between Anna and early Christian women prophets when he introduces Philip’s daughters as “virgins who prophesy” (Acts 21:9)



In Revelation, specifically in the letter to Thyatira (Rev. 2:18–29), Jesus criticizes a woman who calls herself a woman prophet—the same word Luke uses for Anna—for “teaching and deceiving my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols” (v. 20). The woman is clearly a leader in the church of Thyatira. But is she a genuine prophet? The prophet Jeremiah makes personal holiness and purity a litmus test for genuine prophecy (Jer. 23:9–40). Jesus, similarly, advises his disciples to expose false prophets by drawing attention to their behavior (Matt. 7:15–23). Unfortunately, the character and behavior of the woman from Thyatira did not meet the litmus test of a genuine prophet. Yet what is often missed is that Jesus does not attack the woman for being a leader, but for being an immoral one.

Good post and thanks for the link.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I'm sorry that I miss this thread or I wouldn't have started a thread like it. But I am glad I found it, had I not I would've missed out on a lot of good information.

Isn't it interesting that those who hold the truth (ie. Christians) can let a thread drift away, and not be so OCD and low-self-esteem to have to constantly "bump" it, and it still gets found and appreciated.

And then there are other threads by Mormons who feel they have to "bump" their thread every fifteen minutes because no one is interested in his garbage.

I'm glad you appreciated my post and its subsequent fruits.
 

Redeemed

Well-known member
I'm guessing that you didn't bother to read those passages, so let me quote them for you, since you couldn't be bothered to read them:

Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

2 Tim. 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Tit. 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Rom. 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Rom. 11:5
So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.




What part of "not by works" don't you understand?



But like I've pointed out many times, Mormons can't deal with those verses.
They have a "script", and their "script" lists a few verses they think support "works-salvation", but they have NO idea how to address the passages above.

And sadly, the "script" verses Mormons quote, not only do not make those above "not by works" passages go away, but they don't even CONTRADICT them!

So you STILL have to deal with the fact that salvation is "NOT by works".




That is correct.
This is NOT saying they are saved "because" they obey him.
This is a verse that describes a CORRELATION, not a "causation".
You simply ASSUME a "causation", even though your assumption CONTRADICTS the "not by works" passages.

This passage is saying that those who are saved WILL obey him.
What part of "not by works" don't you understand?



Again, what part of "not by works" don't you understand?
However you interpret Matt. 10:22, or any other verse, you have to make sure you do NOT interpret it in a way that contradicts other passages, such as the "not by works" passages.

"Enduring to the end" is not some "requirement" for salvation.
It is simply an indication of who WILL be saved.
Not everyone in the church congregation is saved.
How do we tell, since we can't read hearts?
Well, those who endure to the end are the ones who are saved.
They are not saved "because" they endure to the end.
They endure to the end BECAUSE they are (already) saved.
They endure to the end BECAUSE they are held in the Father's hand (John 10:28-29), and no on can snatch them out of His hand.



What part of "not by works" don't you understand?

That doesn't say that one needs to "repent" and "be baptized" as requirements to "salvation". The verse doesn't even MENTION "salvation".

And you should be aware that repentance doesn't come from within us, it is something GOD gives us (Acts 11:18, 2 Tim. 2:25).



I would not recommend it, no.
You need to believe God.
And God said, "NOT by works".



Yes, and if you understand the purpose of the Law, you understand why Jesus said this. God gave us the commandments, to convince us that we are UNABLE to keep them, and we need to depend on the mercy of God to be saved.

Rom. 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

What part of "not by works" don't you understand?



The purpose of the Law was to (1) convict us of our sin, and (2) lead us to Christ:

Gal. 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,

What part of "not by works" don't you understand?
You need to believe God.
And God said, "NOT by works".
God said, I believe it, end of story.
I do need to walk it out in my life
the good news is Jesus left us The Helper
To help us do that.

Proverbs 16:9 9In their hearts humans plan their course, but the LORD establishes their steps.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
I see one of the posters you mentioned did try to hijack this thread too, for his favorite topic... his obsession with faith vs works.
 
Top