Mormonism retention rates

En Hakkore

Well-known member
I think it's wonderful that you did that for your mom even though you you didn't believe the LDS church to be true.
Seems like the kind of thing most people would do for their ill or aging parents... or then again maybe not, which would be a sad commentary on what seems to be our society's increasing bent toward self-absorption. :(

Kind regards,
Jonathan
 

Fenuay

Well-known member
Seems like the kind of thing most people would do for their ill or aging parents... or then again maybe not, which would be a sad commentary on what seems to be our society's increasing bent toward self-absorption. :(

Kind regards,
Jonathan
I think there would be those who would be too busy for their aging parents or who say they won't accompany their parent to a cult.
 

Markk

Active member
Personal experience trumped my uninformed projection.

Thanks for your testimony, Markk
I think your fire insurance analogy is true for some, real true. I think it was more or less the opinion of Thomas Ferguson. My guess is it would be more of a temporary emotion for most, but not for all.

If you watch or listen to internet blogs like Mormon Stories and Radio Free Mormon…there are a lot of ex-Mormons that are agnostic, and they very well may have that mindset…if you leave Mormonism , and you don’t have the Lord, but you feel there is a God…your analogy might fit, I believe it might fit in Aarons journey in a way. He loves God, he wants Grace and see’s the need for it, but he can’t let go of Mormonism. If he reads this he will give us a honest answer to it.

I think Theo makes a valid point also …it is complicated and when you realize that everything you believed is false and a lie. And you have family members in a turmoil because of your decision. Or if you have a spouse and child that still believe? Man, that is a emotional roller coaster and everyone reacts differently. Outer darkness is a teaching of Mormonism, but few Mormons I know would assign that to very many. Heck they proxy baptize Hitler and Stalin. I have heard members say the Tanner’s are OD material, or maybe William Law and William Benett…but for the most part I doubt if to many would assign outer darkness to the average apostate, again LOL accept for my old Stake mission President…said I was going straight to hell for speaking out against Hugh Nibley.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
If you watch or listen to internet blogs like Mormon Stories and Radio Free Mormon…there are a lot of ex-Mormons that are agnostic, and they very well may have that mindset…if you leave Mormonism , and you don’t have the Lord, but you feel there is a God…your analogy might fit, I believe it might fit in Aarons journey in a way. He loves God, he wants Grace and see’s the need for it, but he can’t let go of Mormonism. If he reads this he will give us a honest answer to it.
Besides that, what is the weight of one more lie to the many lies they tell us on CARM about their cult?
Seeing as I must be one of the perpetrators of supposedly spreading "many lies" about mormonism, I'm not sure if it matters what I say. Being on this board many times feels like being a Jew in Nazi Germany - the detriment to society, less than human, nor capable of reason or telling the truth, designated to the vilest of motives. So I'm really not sure what answer I provide, if it's something you don't want to hear, you probably won't believe it, and I'll be adding yet just a nothing "lie" about my religion in the mind of my skeptics.

Having said that, there's multiple reasons I can't let go of Mormonism:
First, and foremost, I believe I received some very very powerful.spiritual witnesses on many levels of the gospel: the Book of Mormon, Jesus Christ, temple ordinances, etc.
Second, I've studied Christianity to a fair extent. I listen to Christian radio. I've attended Bible studies, and I still fail to see where my religion violates Christianity. Moreover, to go to another church, and to subscribe and limit myself to a creed would feel inauthentic. Like, I'd be giving it up just for the sake of giving it up. Not to mention, contemplating the implications of accepting the Trinity, which I simply can't accept. Yes, there are cultural beliefs that I don't agree with, but, that don't mean I'm not fully transparent with my beliefs. I teach the young men in my ward salvation by grace through faith just as I do on this forum. Just yesterday, I was talking with my bishop about the beliefs I don't share with the rest of Mormonism. He said "I've seen the lessons you've taught, and I have no concerns about your beliefs. As long as you accept the basics necessary for salvation (faith, repentance, baptism, etc) then I have nothing to be concerned about." So, why should I leave when Im in a better position to help those that subscribe to the unhealthy view of mormonism (as Markk portrays it)?
Third, by trade, I'm an analyst. I over think things to death. I've had many questions about my religion, and everytime I've had a significant doubt, clarity comes, and draws me closer to the truth. There's no way the intricacies could be so much in alignment, and just have it BS'd on the spot. If Joseph Smith is a conman, the dude has amazing skills on the BS factor.
Fourth, yes, family has a influence. Being 6th gen Mormon on both sides of my family makes it hard. I watch the pain and misery of people that leave the Church, creating a barrier between them and their loved ones. It's heartbreaking. Not to mention what to do with the kids...what would I be teaching them contrary to what I'm not already teaching them? That they can't trust their feelings or intuition, and some "Bible expert" needs to let them know if their actually "saved" or not? (Just listen to Matt Slick and how so many bible believing churches get it wrong [according to him]). Or, even worse, a fully converted Christian that doesnt see the brotherhood of man, in general, but rather see their fellow man just a creature of God ,(in the same regard to the rest of God's creations) and treats them like dirt if they don't believe as they do. (A.D.D. Moment - My uncle was the black sheep in his family, and was probably one of the smartest and most loving people I've ever known. He left the Church at an early age. Unfortunately, through the course of life, He ended killing himself. Years later, his son converted to Christianity, and despite any attempt of conversation, he totally isolates himself and treats his family as "less than". Not much different than how Mormons are treated here.) Yeah I'd rather have my kids actually love others unconditionally, than place them in that sick culture.

So, basically, it's not that I'm clinging to Mormonism, it more of a "to whom shall we go?" situation (John 6:68). Everything else pales in comparison.
 

John t

Super Member
Thank you for your well-reasoned reply. Here is mine.

John t said:

Besides that, what is the weight of one more lie to the many lies they tell us on CARM about their cult?

Seeing as I must be one of the perpetrators of supposedly spreading "many lies" about mormonism, I'm not sure if it matters what I say. Being on this board many times feels like being a Jew in Nazi Germany - the detriment to society, less than human, nor capable of reason or telling the truth, designated to the vilest of motives. So I'm really not sure what answer I provide, if it's something you don't want to hear, you probably won't believe it, and I'll be adding yet just a nothing "lie" about my religion in the mind of my skeptics.

First, let me assure you that I am not calling you in particular a liar, but having said that. there have been many of your fellow Mormons who mis-handle the truth of your history. Incidents such as the "Mormon Wars" and the MMM come to mind. The truth is that y'all started those things, and the early settlements of Mormon villages were full of swingers due to polyandry and polygamy. thus, it is indeed a lie when y'all try to gloss over that particularly ugly part of your collective history.
First, and foremost, I believe I received some very very powerful.spiritual witnesses on many levels of the gospel: the Book of Mormon, Jesus Christ, temple ordinances, etc.

I do not doubt that you had a "Maalox Moment", but that is not an objective criteria for truth because it is subjective, known only to you. So for any of your group to hold that up as an objective barometer for discerning truth, it is a lie.

Second, I've studied Christianity to a fair extent. I listen to Christian radio. I've attended Bible studies, and I still fail to see where my religion violates Christianity. Moreover, to go to another church, and to subscribe and limit myself to a creed would feel inauthentic. Like, I'd be giving it up just for the sake of giving it up. Not to mention, contemplating the implications of accepting the Trinity, which I simply can't accept.

Again, it is good that you went to Bible studies, but not all Bible studies are equal. The teachers from Kingdom Hall have a different agenda than those from the local Community Bible Church. That is because each has a different viewpoint about the historicity and reliability of the Bible..

Your comment about "accepting the trinity" is a primary example of what I an illustrating. I will not derail this to discuss the Trinity because that would be on the Trinity forum, but it is abundantly clear when Scriptures are compared with Scriptures that the Bible does teach the existence. We, who are Evangelical believe that the Bible says what it means, and means what it says. Thus while we agree that the word, "Trinity" is not in the Bible, it does not mean that the Bible does not teach the doctrine of the Trinity. Therefore to say differently is to lie.

Concurrent with that us the fact that the Bible calls y'all "spiritually blinded by the god of this world"

2 Corinthians 4:
3 But if indeed our gospel is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, 4 among whom the god of this age has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that they would not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For we do not proclaim ourselves, but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your slaves for the sake of Jesus. 6 For God who said, “Light will shine out of darkness,” is the one who has shined in our hearts for the enlightenment of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.​

No I do not post that in glee, but I do say that because you Mormons cannot see the truth of Scripture. Therefore, when y'all say, "I do not accept the Trinity", it is another lie because you say that the Bible does not teach things like that

I could go on and on about salvation by grace alone, apart from works, and the total sufficiency of the Atonement of Christ, but my point is made. because you Mormons reject all those things, and more, y'all can do none other but lie when you attempt to make the case that "such and such is not in the Bible".
 

Fenuay

Well-known member
Thank you for your well-reasoned reply. Here is mine.





First, let me assure you that I am not calling you in particular a liar, but having said that. there have been many of your fellow Mormons who mis-handle the truth of your history. Incidents such as the "Mormon Wars" and the MMM come to mind. The truth is that y'all started those things, and the early settlements of Mormon villages were full of swingers due to polyandry and polygamy. thus, it is indeed a lie when y'all try to gloss over that particularly ugly part of your collective history.


I do not doubt that you had a "Maalox Moment", but that is not an objective criteria for truth because it is subjective, known only to you. So for any of your group to hold that up as an objective barometer for discerning truth, it is a lie.



Again, it is good that you went to Bible studies, but not all Bible studies are equal. The teachers from Kingdom Hall have a different agenda than those from the local Community Bible Church. That is because each has a different viewpoint about the historicity and reliability of the Bible..

Your comment about "accepting the trinity" is a primary example of what I an illustrating. I will not derail this to discuss the Trinity because that would be on the Trinity forum, but it is abundantly clear when Scriptures are compared with Scriptures that the Bible does teach the existence. We, who are Evangelical believe that the Bible says what it means, and means what it says. Thus while we agree that the word, "Trinity" is not in the Bible, it does not mean that the Bible does not teach the doctrine of the Trinity. Therefore to say differently is to lie.

Concurrent with that us the fact that the Bible calls y'all "spiritually blinded by the god of this world"

2 Corinthians 4:
3 But if indeed our gospel is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, 4 among whom the god of this age has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that they would not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For we do not proclaim ourselves, but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your slaves for the sake of Jesus. 6 For God who said, “Light will shine out of darkness,” is the one who has shined in our hearts for the enlightenment of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.​

No I do not post that in glee, but I do say that because you Mormons cannot see the truth of Scripture. Therefore, when y'all say, "I do not accept the Trinity", it is another lie because you say that the Bible does not teach things like that

I could go on and on about salvation by grace alone, apart from works, and the total sufficiency of the Atonement of Christ, but my point is made. because you Mormons reject all those things, and more, y'all can do none other but lie when you attempt to make the case that "such and such is not in the Bible".
"Maalox Moment"???? Why don't you tell us how the Spirit witnesses to you. Aaron has shared how he feels openly and honestly. Yet you still lump him in with "ya'll Mormons" and call him a liar which is against the rules but wording it so as to side step that rule. Disagreeing with the Doctrine of the CoJCoLDS is one thing but offensively criticizing someone for their beliefs and not offering anything Biblical to the contrary other than 2Corinth is sad. No wonder there is no productive discussion here. Most religions have violence in their history. Yet people use that to discount Mormons. Many religions have pedophiles, or adulterers who are priests or pastors and get caught. Churches are made of PEOPLE and people are highly imperfect. So casting stones at Mormons when Christianity is full of murder in it's past is laughable. And just to correct you no, Mormons were never Swingers. That's just ignorance to claim that.
 
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Theo1689

Well-known member
If Joseph Smith is a conman, the dude has amazing skills on the BS factor.

That is certainly true.

Fourth, yes, family has a influence. Being 6th gen Mormon on both sides of my family makes it hard. I watch the pain and misery of people that leave the Church, creating a barrier between them and their loved ones. It's heartbreaking.

You bring this up a few times in your post, but in my experience, it is Mormonism that teaches excommunication and disfellowshipping. It is the Mormon family that cuts all ties with someone who leaves Mormonism in favour of Christianity.



Or, even worse, a fully converted Christian that doesnt see the brotherhood of man, in general, but rather see their fellow man just a creature of God ,(in the same regard to the rest of God's creations)

This is a misrepresentation of Christianity, and even if it is unintentional, it demonstrates you don't understand Christianity nearly as well as you think (or claim) you do. We most certainly DO see "the brotherhood of mankind", regardless of differing (or no) religious beliefs.

and treats them like dirt if they don't believe as they do.

That's Mormonism, not Christianity.

(A.D.D. Moment - My uncle was the black sheep in his family, and was probably one of the smartest and most loving people I've ever known. He left the Church at an early age. Unfortunately, through the course of life, He ended killing himself.

Exactly. He left the church, and his Mormon family cut off all ties, and he committed suicide as a result. That's YOUR church, not ours.

Years later, his son converted to Christianity, and despite any attempt of conversation, he totally isolates himself and treats his family as "less than". Not much different than how Mormons are treated here.)

Not only is that simply anecdotal, and ONE singular occurrence, hardly enough to make generalizations about (unless you have an agenda, of course), but the ties the son had to Mormonism suggests that he got that attitude from them, not from his new Christian faith.

Yeah I'd rather have my kids actually love others unconditionally, than place them in that sick culture.

Christianity teaches "unconditional love".
Mormonism teaches, "cut off all ties with apostates".

So which is the better religion, again?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
"Maalox Moment"???? Why don't you tell us how the Spirit witnesses to you.

Well, it comes from the Mormon wording of "burning in the bosom".
I've heard many testimonies of ex-Mormons, where they were FULLY convinced of the "burning in the bosom", until one day they were watching football and they got the EXACT same feeling from the adrenaline rush of seeing their team score.

Aaron has shared how he feels openly and honestly. Yet you still lump him in with "ya'll Mormons" and call him a liar which is against the rules but wording it so as to side step that rule.

Well, let's see.... He is CONSTANTLY trying to attack Christianity here, derailing discussion away from Mormonism, and he CONSTANTLY misrepresents what Christianity teaches. It's either intentional or unintentional, but the large number of times he does it suggests one conclusion over the other.

I notice you never criticize him for his misrepresentations.
Why is that, I wonder?

Disagreeing with the Doctrine of the CoJCoLDS is one thing but offensively criticizing someone for their beliefs and not offering anything Biblical to the contrary other than 2Corinth is sad.

We are limited in what we can discuss here, we're limited to discussing Mormonism. That's one of the reasons Mormons trying to constantly make false claims about Christianity here. We have two choices:

1) ignore their comments, because responding would be off-topic, in which case their false claims remain unchecked; or
2) respond to their comments, and respond to them, beginning an off-topic discussion, and the Mormons have succeeded in derailing discussion away from Mormonism.

If Mormons were honest, they wouldn't constantly do this.

No wonder there is no productive discussion here. Most religions have violence in their history. Yet people use that to discount Mormons.

Only do that to Mormons when they first try to do it to Christianity (and Christianity being off-topic here). So again, why do you never criticize the Mormons when they do it?

Many religions have pedophiles, or adulterers who are priests or pastors and get caught.

One of the reasons pedophilia is more prevalent in the Catholic Church than in the Protestant church is because Protestant pastors are married.

And one of the reasons it's more prevalent in the Mormon church than in the Protestant church is because they insist on private meetings with the bishop.

And just to correct you no, Mormons were never Swingers. That's just ignorance to claim that.

There's very little difference between polygamy and "swinging", IMO. Both deny fidelity to the only legal spouse.
 

Fenuay

Well-known member
That is certainly true.



You bring this up a few times in your post, but in my experience, it is Mormonism that teaches excommunication and disfellowshipping. It is the Mormon family that cuts all ties with someone who leaves Mormonism in favour of Christianity.





This is a misrepresentation of Christianity, and even if it is unintentional, it demonstrates you don't understand Christianity nearly as well as you think (or claim) you do. We most certainly DO see "the brotherhood of mankind", regardless of differing (or no) religious beliefs.



That's Mormonism, not Christianity.



Exactly. He left the church, and his Mormon family cut off all ties, and he committed suicide as a result. That's YOUR church, not ours.



Not only is that simply anecdotal, and ONE singular occurrence, hardly enough to make generalizations about (unless you have an agenda, of course), but the ties the son had to Mormonism suggests that he got that attitude from them, not from his new Christian faith.



Christianity teaches "unconditional love".
Mormonism teaches, "cut off all ties with apostates".

So which is the better religion, again?
From the amount of hate I have seen on here from the non Mormons I would have to say the Mormons. Christianity teaches unconditional love but I see few who actually practice it. I see no love here for Mormons or Christians who disagree with one another. It's sad to see the Christian hatefulness here.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
From the amount of hate I have seen on here from the non Mormons I would have to say the Mormons. Christianity teaches unconditional love but I see few who actually practice it. I see no love here for Mormons or Christians who disagree with one another. It's sad to see the Christian hatefulness here.

I think you're seeing things.
I haven't seen ANY hate from the non-Mormons.

Only hate, contempt, mocking, and misrepresenting from the Mormons.
 

Fenuay

Well-known member
Well, it comes from the Mormon wording of "burning in the bosom".
I've heard many testimonies of ex-Mormons, where they were FULLY convinced of the "burning in the bosom", until one day they were watching football and they got the EXACT same feeling from the adrenaline rush of seeing their team score.



Well, let's see.... He is CONSTANTLY trying to attack Christianity here, derailing discussion away from Mormonism, and he CONSTANTLY misrepresents what Christianity teaches. It's either intentional or unintentional, but the large number of times he does it suggests one conclusion over the other.

I notice you never criticize him for his misrepresentations.
Why is that, I wonder?



We are limited in what we can discuss here, we're limited to discussing Mormonism. That's one of the reasons Mormons trying to constantly make false claims about Christianity here. We have two choices:

1) ignore their comments, because responding would be off-topic, in which case their false claims remain unchecked; or
2) respond to their comments, and respond to them, beginning an off-topic discussion, and the Mormons have succeeded in derailing discussion away from Mormonism.

If Mormons were honest, they wouldn't constantly do this.



Only do that to Mormons when they first try to do it to Christianity (and Christianity being off-topic here). So again, why do you never criticize the Mormons when they do it?



One of the reasons pedophilia is more prevalent in the Catholic Church than in the Protestant church is because Protestant pastors are married.

And one of the reasons it's more prevalent in the Mormon church than in the Protestant church is because they insist on private meetings with the bishop.



There's very little difference between polygamy and "swinging", IMO. Both deny fidelity to the only legal spouse.
If you want to know why I am polite to the Mormons it's because I try to be polite to everyone here and Aaron has been very polite in return. I have said things to other Mormons who were not so polite. But the amount of times I watch the LDS state what they believe and the Christians say no you don't is astounding. And I have seen so much hatred not just on this forum but on the Christian forums among one another.
 

Fenuay

Well-known member
I think you're seeing things.
I haven't seen ANY hate from the non-Mormons.

Only hate, contempt, mocking, and misrepresenting from the Mormons.
LOL! Go look at the discussions between the Christians on Calvinism vs Arminianism. Or some of the Christians on the Secular forums. Or other denomination forums. Look at how hateful they treat the RCs. All I have seen here from the Christians and most especially the Evangelicals have been hateful. And on this Mormonism forum it's been horrid. I think you remember a certain "Christian" who is no longer here who would even argue with Christians here on the Mormon forum. I just wonder why most of the Christians are here. You can't convince someone to leave a "cult" with hatred. It requires patience, love, understanding, and long suffering. But I see none of that offered to the Mormons here.
 

Fenuay

Well-known member
That is certainly true.



You bring this up a few times in your post, but in my experience, it is Mormonism that teaches excommunication and disfellowshipping. It is the Mormon family that cuts all ties with someone who leaves Mormonism in favour of Christianity.





This is a misrepresentation of Christianity, and even if it is unintentional, it demonstrates you don't understand Christianity nearly as well as you think (or claim) you do. We most certainly DO see "the brotherhood of mankind", regardless of differing (or no) religious beliefs.



That's Mormonism, not Christianity.



Exactly. He left the church, and his Mormon family cut off all ties, and he committed suicide as a result. That's YOUR church, not ours.



Not only is that simply anecdotal, and ONE singular occurrence, hardly enough to make generalizations about (unless you have an agenda, of course), but the ties the son had to Mormonism suggests that he got that attitude from them, not from his new Christian faith.



Christianity teaches "unconditional love".
Mormonism teaches, "cut off all ties with apostates".

So which is the better religion, again?
Also Mormons don't teach to cut off ties with people who leave. They teach to continue to reach out to them.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
But the amount of times I watch the LDS state what they believe and the Christians say no you don't is astounding.

I don't believe anyone has said that at all. The fact of the matter is that Mormonism is very precisely defined, and there are individual Mormons here in the forum who don't accept everything the church teaches. I believe Markk has been VERY careful to say, "What you believe is not what your church officially teaches", and I have NEVER seen him say, "No, you personally don't believe what you just claimed you believe. I think you need to read more carefully, and give more charity towards the Christians here.

And I have seen so much hatred not just on this forum but on the Christian forums among one another.

Pointing out that individuals don't believe the same thing their church teaches is NOT "hatred".
 

Fenuay

Well-known member
I don't believe anyone has said that at all. The fact of the matter is that Mormonism is very precisely defined, and there are individual Mormons here in the forum who don't accept everything the church teaches. I believe Markk has been VERY careful to say, "What you believe is not what your church officially teaches", and I have NEVER seen him say, "No, you personally don't believe what you just claimed you believe. I think you need to read more carefully, and give more charity towards the Christians here.



Pointing out that individuals don't believe the same thing their church teaches is NOT "hatred".
I'm not calling that hatred. And I wasn't saying Markk is hateful. I never mentioned any names. But Markk seems to be one of the most polite people here. So using him the example is a little unfair as some others are not like him. But let's use him... He sets the bar to where everyone else should strive to be but they don't.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
First, let me assure you that I am not calling you in particular a liar, but having said that. there have been many of your fellow Mormons who mis-handle the truth of your history. Incidents such as the "Mormon Wars" and the MMM come to mind. The truth is that y'all started those things, and the early settlements of Mormon villages were full of swingers due to polyandry and polygamy. thus, it is indeed a lie when y'all try to gloss over that particularly ugly part of your collective history.
Yeah. I totally get that, and appreciate what your saying. I certainly am not proud of certain parts of my cultural heritage, and I think it's something all Mormons should learn from.
I do not doubt that you had a "Maalox Moment", but that is not an objective criteria for truth because it is subjective, known only to you. So for any of your group to hold that up as an objective barometer for discerning truth, it is a lie.
Fair enough. I totally own that it's subjective, and not very useful for an objective discussion. I balance my spiritual experiences with logic and reason also, and it goes way beyond heartburn. My point is, when it comes down it, I simply couldn't make a change based on intellectual reasoning alone - it just would feel like there's something missing.

Again, it is good that you went to Bible studies, but not all Bible studies are equal. The teachers from Kingdom Hall have a different agenda than those from the local Community Bible Church. That is because each has a different viewpoint about the historicity and reliability of the Bible..

Your comment about "accepting the trinity" is a primary example of what I an illustrating. I will not derail this to discuss the Trinity because that would be on the Trinity forum, but it is abundantly clear when Scriptures are compared with Scriptures that the Bible does teach the existence. We, who are Evangelical believe that the Bible says what it means, and means what it says. Thus while we agree that the word, "Trinity" is not in the Bible, it does not mean that the Bible does not teach the doctrine of the Trinity. Therefore to say differently is to lie.

Concurrent with that us the fact that the Bible calls y'all "spiritually blinded by the god of this world"

2 Corinthians 4:
3 But if indeed our gospel is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, 4 among whom the god of this age has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that they would not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For we do not proclaim ourselves, but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your slaves for the sake of Jesus. 6 For God who said, “Light will shine out of darkness,” is the one who has shined in our hearts for the enlightenment of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.​

No I do not post that in glee, but I do say that because you Mormons cannot see the truth of Scripture. Therefore, when y'all say, "I do not accept the Trinity", it is another lie because you say that the Bible does not teach things like that

I could go on and on about salvation by grace alone, apart from works, and the total sufficiency of the Atonement of Christ, but my point is made. because you Mormons reject all those things, and more, y'all can do none other but lie when you attempt to make the case that "such and such is not in the Bible".
I really do understand where your coming from John t. If I believed in the bible alone, I would probably come to the same conclusions you do. However, the general belief that mormons don't believe the Bible is false, we just interpret it differently. The principles of the Trinity are true, and it's literally one iota that divides our beliefs and leads to numerous implications. I also 100% believe I am saved by grace through faith in Christ alone. Now, having said that, I debate both Mormons and Christians about what that means.

Now, maybe you think I'm watering down, or white washing, my beliefs in comparison to cultural mormonism. I can understand why you'd think that. I'm not here to convert you. I'm just here to defend MY beliefs, offer a different perspective, and build bridges where I can. I feel that I've seen both sides of the issue. I hear what Mormons say about Christians and what Christians say about Mormons. There's misunderstanding on both sides, both tearing each side down. What better example of Eph. 6:12 is there? I honestly believe that both are saying essentially the same thing, just in different languages. There's definitely a message many Mormons need to hear, especially for those in Utah entrenched in cultural beliefs, and having said that, Mormonism is greatly misunderstood by Christianity. I've seen the materials given to Christian pastors by Mormon "experts".

In any case, I believe there's many well intended Christians. I welcome any Biblical discussions. I can't speak for all Mormons, and many might disagree with me. Regardless, I'm happy to discuss, and give my perspective on it.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member

Wow, Fenuay, what a "hateful" comment you just gave me!
Laughing in my face? Really? Is that supposed to be "respectful"?

Go look at the discussions between the Christians on Calvinism vs Arminianism.

So the fact that you have to direct me to a different forum, does that mean you can't present any "hatred" here in the Mormonism forum?

But yes, I admit that in the A&C forum, there are some individuals who are hateful, and some who are not. You see, at least I can see the difference, rather than painting everyone with the same lowest common denominator.

Or some of the Christians on the Secular forums. Or other denomination forums. Look at how hateful they treat the RCs.

There is a reason why people are advised not to discuss religion or politics.
However, again, there are some who act respectfully, and some who act hatefully. You can't just paint everyone with the same broad brush.

All I have seen here from the Christians and most especially the Evangelicals have been hateful.

Well, since you are unable to provide any concrete examples, I guess we'll have to take your opinion with a huge grain of salt. Sadly, the biggest example I've seen in this forum from a non-Mormon that seems "hateful", is your sweeping accusation that Christians here are "hateful".

And on this Mormonism forum it's been horrid. I think you remember a certain "Christian" who is no longer here who would even argue with Christians here on the Mormon forum.

So you're referring to ONE particular Christian?
But then you want to blame all the Christians here for that ONE Christian's behaviour?

You can't convince someone to leave a "cult" with hatred.

You think we don't know that?
I mean, it seems awfully "hateful" of you to assume we're all morons.

That's precisely why we AREN'T "hateful" here, since that is counterproductive.

It requires patience, love, understanding, and long suffering. But I see none of that offered to the Mormons here.

Well then, I guess we can thank God that HE is our judge, and you are not.
Because He will judge righteously.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I'm not calling that hatred. And I wasn't saying Markk is hateful. I never mentioned any names.

No, you didn't mention any names. You simply said we're ALL being "hateful".
Based on your accusations against one Christian who no longer posts here.

But Markk seems to be one of the most polite people here. So using him the example is a little unfair as some others are not like him. But let's use him... He sets the bar to where everyone else should strive to be but they don't.

"but they don't", according to YOU?
That's not really helpful, is it?
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
Well, let's see.... He is CONSTANTLY trying to attack Christianity here, derailing discussion away from Mormonism, and he CONSTANTLY misrepresents what Christianity teaches. It's either intentional or unintentional, but the large number of times he does it suggests one conclusion over the other.
Theo...in all sincerity...pick a board you feel is appropriate, tell me what I'm getting wrong about Christianity. I don't want to misrepresent Christianity either intentionally or unintentionally.

We are limited in what we can discuss here, we're limited to discussing Mormonism. That's one of the reasons Mormons trying to constantly make false claims about Christianity here. We have two choices:

1) ignore their comments, because responding would be off-topic, in which case their false claims remain unchecked; or
2) respond to their comments, and respond to them, beginning an off-topic discussion, and the Mormons have succeeded in derailing discussion away from Mormonism.

If Mormons were honest, they wouldn't constantly do this.
You'd be surprised how many conversations I have through private messaging. We don't need to limit our exchanges to this board. If you want to help the situation feel free to set me straight. I'm not sure why we need to have venom between us.

And one of the reasons it's more prevalent in the Mormon church than in the Protestant church is because they insist on private meetings with the bishop.
FYI - Those policies have been changed thanks to the protectldschildren . org movement. Parents have the option to sit in on interviews if they desire.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
If you want to know why I am polite to the Mormons it's because I try to be polite to everyone here and Aaron has been very polite in return.

No, I didn't ask you why you were polite to Mormons.
I asked you why you don't go correcting "hateful behaviour" from Mormons like you try to do with Christians.

Or perhaps, why you aren't "polite to the Christians", like you are "polite to the Mormons".

Btw, you seemed to be rebuking Markk regarding your accusation that he was breaking the rules. If you know the rules, then you know (1) that it's agains the rules to argue with other Christians in the Mormonism forum, and (2) discussing posters' behaviours in the forums is against the rules.
 
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