"Mormonism" vs "the Gospel"

Markk

Active member
I don't disagree. You can take the Talmage route, ignore the Lectures on Faith, and believe in "divine investiture". I get that, another plausible explanation.
Correct me if I am wrong, you stated in a post, I am not sure which one, that the church explicitly teaches that Christ is the God of the OT. Aaron, I agree it currently does also, but without “divine investiture,“ you can’t logically defend Christ being the God of the OT. You seem to be mixing the two thoughts.
 

Markk

Active member
Yeah, I clearly own what I'm saying, and its completely original - meshing the KFD, Lectures on Faith, and Adam God.
In the end, to me, it doesn't really matter. Gospel Principles and the Doctrine of Christ stills exist the same regardless, which is really what should be focused on.
Please don’t take this wrong, but to me, you are working way too hard to make this all work for you. It seems you are just picking and choosing what ever keeps your personal testimony from fracturing.

 

Markk

Active member
Ok. That's fine. But you made the claim that if not literal it destroys the doctrine of the Church. I asked how, and you can't tell me how. If it's completely non-authoritative. It's not like I teach this in church or anything. I'm ok with that, and I'll agree with you. In no way do I wish to lead anyone contrary or confuse anyone, but the subject can be confusing, and I share what works for me.
It does, it certainly does in that it is the doctrine of the church. I told you how, because it is different and not what the church teaches.

I get that you share what works for you, but equally I understand what works for you is not LDS doctrine.
 

Markk

Active member
To be Celestial Glory they've reached their complete destination to perfection. The only progression is expanding their kingdom. I know you can find one off quotes that say God is progressing, and I can find quotes to support my view.
We've talked about this before, and I'd prefer not to go in circles.
No circles…th eLaw of progression as far as nature ends with exaltation. From intelligence (unorganized mater),to a spirit child (organized mater in spirit form), to mortality, a physical body with a organized spirit, to the final judgement and a body of one of at least (7) “beings.”
 

Fenuay

Well-known member
No circles…th eLaw of progression as far as nature ends with exaltation. From intelligence (unorganized mater),to a spirit child (organized mater in spirit form), to mortality, a physical body with a organized spirit, to the final judgement and a body of one of at least (7) “beings.”
Mark, can you please explain what you mean by "one of at least 7 "beings"? I am aware of only two. Either a perfected human goes to one of the three glories, or outer darkness, or the unwed worthy can become a ministering angel. Which others are you referring to.
 

Markk

Active member
It was a sloppy typo, I was watching the NBA playoffs when I wrote it….… it should read “one of at least (6) estates. “

Outer darkness, telestial, terrestrial, and one of (3) levels of the CK.
 

Fenuay

Well-known member
It was a sloppy typo, I was watching the NBA playoffs when I wrote it….… it should read “one of at least (6) estates. “

Outer darkness, telestial, terrestrial, and one of (3) levels of the CK.
I never learned that there were three levels of the CK. Can you tell me about that or where to find it?
 

Markk

Active member
I never learned that there were three levels of the CK. Can you tell me about that or where to find it?
It is in the D&C 131, 132….and other places. The highest level is where God lives and is for exalted members, one must be married to merit this highest estate. The middle estate is not really discussed or known who will merit this estate, the lowest estate is resevered for unmarried folks. They will be eternal servants for those in the CK and will minister to folks in the telestial kingdom.


I have even read that some believe there are sub levels at the terrestrial and telestial, but I haven’t studied that at any depth.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
Correct me if I am wrong, you stated in a post, I am not sure which one, that the church explicitly teaches that Christ is the God of the OT. Aaron, I agree it currently does also, but without “divine investiture,“ you can’t logically defend Christ being the God of the OT. You seem to be mixing the two thoughts.
Why not?
HF is God over all His children.
Jehovah/Jesus is God of the covenant people.
If anything that makes the NT and OT consistent.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
Please don’t take this wrong, but to me, you are working way too hard to make this all work for you. It seems you are just picking and choosing what ever keeps your personal testimony from fracturing.

But the thing is, the work is done. I'm at peace. There's no more work to make this work for me. It would be more work to justify myself walking away from my covenants.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
But the thing is, the work is done. I'm at peace. There's no more work to make this work for me. It would be more work to justify myself walking away from my covenants.
You’re at peace with what? Doctrines that conflict with Christ’s?
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
It does, it certainly does in that it is the doctrine of the church. I told you how, because it is different and not what the church teaches.

I get that you share what works for you, but equally I understand what works for you is not LDS doctrine.
Says the person that himself doesn't believe LDS doctrine. You're not exactly enlightening anything. If I gave up Mormonism, and stuck strictly to Christianity, I'd remain equally confused by the Trinity, of which I'd just accept on faith, just as I do sticking strictly to Mormon doctrine, so what's it to you? I'm congruent with the truth revealed to me which I can't deny, I honor my covenants, and I can be honest that I don't have all the "official" answers, and I'm not a Mormon automaton blindly defending everything the Church says because I can think independently. All I can do is be honest with you. I'm not sure what you want from me.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
No circles…th eLaw of progression as far as nature ends with exaltation. From intelligence (unorganized mater),to a spirit child (organized mater in spirit form), to mortality, a physical body with a organized spirit, to the final judgement and a body of one of at least (7) “beings.”
Ok. So I guess we're in agreement then?
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
Says the person that himself doesn't believe LDS doctrine. You're not exactly enlightening anything. If I gave up Mormonism, and stuck strictly to Christianity, I'd remain equally confused by the Trinity, of which I'd just accept on faith, just as I do sticking strictly to Mormon doctrine, so what's it to you? I'm congruent with the truth revealed to me which I can't deny, I honor my covenants, and I can be honest that I don't have all the "official" answers, and I'm not a Mormon automaton blindly defending everything the Church says because I can think independently. All I can do is be honest with you. I'm not sure what you want from me.

Whats important is what Christ said. Not what’s taught by any religion. I challenge you to read the Bible again. Straight through, in context.

Its highly likely at some point youll realize that the covenants you made to mormonism were not with God, because they didn't come from Him.

If you want more evidence, pay attention to who it is in the temple ceremony who threatens you will be in his power if you don’t live up to your covenants. Why would he want you to obey Mormon covenants?
 

Fenuay

Well-known member
Whats important is what Christ said. Not what’s taught by any religion. I challenge you to read the Bible again. Straight through, in context.

Its highly likely at some point youll realize that the covenants you made to mormonism were not with God, because they didn't come from Him.

If you want more evidence, pay attention to who it is in the temple ceremony who threatens you will be in his power if you don’t live up to your covenants. Why would he want you to obey Mormon covenants?
That last question is actually very striking. Why indeed.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
These are some of my thoughts on this as well
First, the role of the church is for the perfection of the Saints, not the salvation of the Saints.
I don't see a difference between the two. the perfection of the saints leads to salvation. No one is saved alone. Salvation or the work that leads to salvation is a group effort. I cannot baptize myself, someone with authority must baptize me. I can't teach myself, someone who knows must teach me.
Salvation is following the promptings of the Holy Ghost
Assuming one is getting promptings from the Holy Ghost and that they recognize it as such. This is a hard issue because you can't see the Holy Ghost, no one else can hear him but you. How do you know that it's coming from the Holy Ghost and not your own reasoning?
The church is essentially a group of believers, led by apostles and prophets as a vehicle to organize and perform God's work.
I would add, "who are authorized to organize and perform God's work"
1) personal revelation (John 14:6)
There is no doctrinal authority in personal revelation and I don't see how you get anything like that from Joh 14:6
As you say, a lot of problematic statements have come from early church leaders found in the Journal of Discourses.
I believe that the problems exist only for those who are ignorant about the truth.
Personally, we can recognize "doctrine" is being taught when we recognize the Holy Ghost (D&C 68:4). {If we simply accepted everything the Church said as doctrine without verification then we would indeed be a cult, but we don't -, members are counseled to read Scriptures, pray daily, and become spiritually self-reliant).
IOW, they are counseled to work to find out for themselves, but this creates a problem. There are those who think they have the guidance of the Holy Ghost and say the church is wrong and then there are those who think they have the Holy Ghost and say the church is right. Personal revelation doesn't seem to be working so well for some people. I personally believe that when someone decides the church is wrong and they are right that person is listening to himself.

If someone really believes the church is wrong, then they ought to act on that and find a church that is right. I think the same thing should occur for those who aren't members of our church, that when they determine that the church they attend is wrong, they should act on that and go and find a church that they believe is right.

You cannot find salvation in a church that teaches false doctrine.
If the Church teaches something that doesn't feel right, the Church says worship according to your conscience (11th Article of Faith) but that's necessarily a get out of jail free card, it's all about intent, God knows our hearts.
And we fully believe that those who disagree with what we teach should seek the truth they desire. What isn't helpful os to claim your a member of a church and then teach that the church your a member of is wrong. :rolleyes: That seems like common sense to me...
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
Whats important is what Christ said. Not what’s taught by any religion. I challenge you to read the Bible again. Straight through, in context.
Ummm...ok. Done.
Its highly likely at some point youll realize that the covenants you made to mormonism were not with God, because they didn't come from Him.
You really have no idea what I've experienced, so I don't think you can understand. I'm going to follow the fruits of the Spirit, and trust not in the arm of the flesh.
If you want more evidence, pay attention to who it is in the temple ceremony who threatens you will be in his power if you don’t live up to your covenants. Why would he want you to obey Mormon covenants?
I'm a little confused pointing to this as evidence. Satan doesn't want me to obey. He tries to use fear and intimidation to scare me out of it. He wants me to focus on perfectionism, religiosity, and forget about grace. Yet, I trust in Jesus power, and Satan flees.Thats the point.
 

Fenuay

Well-known member
These are some of my thoughts on this as well

I don't see a difference between the two. the perfection of the saints leads to salvation. No one is saved alone. Salvation or the work that leads to salvation is a group effort. I cannot baptize myself, someone with authority must baptize me. I can't teach myself, someone who knows must teach me.

Assuming one is getting promptings from the Holy Ghost and that they recognize it as such. This is a hard issue because you can't see the Holy Ghost, no one else can hear him but you. How do you know that it's coming from the Holy Ghost and not your own reasoning?

I would add, "who are authorized to organize and perform God's work"

There is no doctrinal authority in personal revelation and I don't see how you get anything like that from Joh 14:6

I believe that the problems exist only for those who are ignorant about the truth.

IOW, they are counseled to work to find out for themselves, but this creates a problem. There are those who think they have the guidance of the Holy Ghost and say the church is wrong and then there are those who think they have the Holy Ghost and say the church is right. Personal revelation doesn't seem to be working so well for some people. I personally believe that when someone decides the church is wrong and they are right that person is listening to himself.

If someone really believes the church is wrong, then they ought to act on that and find a church that is right. I think the same thing should occur for those who aren't members of our church, that when they determine that the church they attend is wrong, they should act on that and go and find a church that they believe is right.

You cannot find salvation in a church that teaches false doctrine.

And we fully believe that those who disagree with what we teach should seek the truth they desire. What isn't helpful os to claim your a member of a church and then teach that the church your a member of is wrong. :rolleyes: That seems like common sense to me...
One problem I have going and finding a church that is right is that there isn't one. I have yet to find a church with which I agree on every bit of their Doctrine. They either misinterpret the Bible and Gods gifts, or they don't follow certain necessary Doctrine or they claim to have truth that is extra Biblical. So I am at a loss as to where to go for the truth. Closest I have found still lacks teachings of modesty and teachings for the young members to learn how to behave righteously. Maybe a big part of it is that by and large church members do not behave and act with Christian character and manners. I must say that is one thing I miss about the CoJCoLDS. However I don't accept that JS was a prophet so that leaves me without a Church that I think teaches all the truth.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
I don't see a difference between the two. the perfection of the saints leads to salvation. No one is saved alone. Salvation or the work that leads to salvation is a group effort. I cannot baptize myself, someone with authority must baptize me. I can't teach myself, someone who knows must teach me.
Right. Because we disagree when someone can consider themselves saved. You also believe in a works-based salvation, and I believe in faith-based. The BoM and the Bibles says by the Holy Ghost we can know the truth of all things. I trust that.
Assuming one is getting promptings from the Holy Ghost and that they recognize it as such. This is a hard issue because you can't see the Holy Ghost, no one else can hear him but you. How do you know that it's coming from the Holy Ghost and not your own reasoning?
Because I trust God answers prayers, and I speak to Him as if he's my friend. God knows what I believe, he also knows my heart. I say "Based on all the evidence you've given me, this is my understanding, please show me otherwise so I'm not deceiving myself.
I can see multiple interpretations of things. All truth comes from God, and everyone believes in some shred of truth. I can validate you, I can validate Christians. I think God cares less about what I know is right, and cares more about me having charity and seek to lift others and give people hope.
I would add, "who are authorized to organize and perform God's work"
Ummm...ok.
There is no doctrinal authority in personal revelation
On a personal level it's the greatest authority. Deny Him is the only sin we can't be forgiven.
and I don't see how you get anything like that from Joh 14:6
Sorry. John 14:26
I believe that the problems exist only for those who are ignorant about the truth.
I disagree.
IOW, they are counseled to work to find out for themselves, but this creates a problem. There are those who think they have the guidance of the Holy Ghost and say the church is wrong and then there are those who think they have the Holy Ghost and say the church is right. Personal revelation doesn't seem to be working so well for some people. I personally believe that when someone decides the church is wrong and they are right that person is listening to himself.
The irony is that you're saying the Church is wrong in their counsel because it causes problems. Based on your own reasoning, this reasoning is uninspired. That's pretty hilarious!
If someone really believes the church is wrong, then they ought to act on that and find a church that is right. I think the same thing should occur for those who aren't members of our church, that when they determine that the church they attend is wrong, they should act on that and go and find a church that they believe is right.
I agree. That's why some who leave the Church should be praised for honoring their convictions at the expense of family and friends.
You cannot find salvation in a church that teaches false doctrine.
But how is false doctrine identified? Do people willing believe that which they know to be false?
And we fully believe that those who disagree with what we teach should seek the truth they desire.
Because polygamy is such a vital doctrine to be in agreement on, right? Even though Wilford Woodruff ended the practice. Have you considered Mormon Fundamentalism? That might be a better fit for you. 😂
What isn't helpful os to claim your a member of a church and then teach that the church your a member of is wrong. :rolleyes: That seems like common sense to me...
Common sense to me is identifying areas of agreement, instead of insisting their wrong at all costs. 🙄
 
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