Mormons hope to become Gods and Create Planets to Rule

[Richard7]

You don't really seem to understand regeneration, do you?
If someone commanded you, "Be born again!", how would you obey that command?
It's kind of like commanding someone, "Be tall!"

Regeneration is a PASSIVE event. We don't regenerate ourselves, GOD regenerates us.
So of course you would never see it as a "command" in Scripture.



Really?

John 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

Seriously, get thee to an optometrist!



"Reborn again"? Sorry, no such thing.

And no, regeneration does not come after faith, it comes prior:

1John 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God,...

Look it up, regeneration can also be a action, in our opinion one does the coming unto Christ and that which follows is being born again..
Its always our choice, God does not pick and choose as you Evangelical believe... we choose to accept God and Jesus Christ, we choose to repent and be baptized... we are no predestined as you just pointed out....quote Theo... "We don't regenerate ourselves, GOD regenerates us."

Titus 3:5

New Testament

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost...

 

[Theo1689]

Look it up, regeneration can also be a action,

Um, no.... "Regeneration" is a noun.
If you want to say that "regenerate" is a verb, you would be correct. But Scripture never teaches that we are to "regenerate" ourselves. We are "regenerat-ED", passive participle.
It's something done TO us.
By GOD.

in our opinion one does the coming unto Christ and that which follows is being born again..

Look, I couldn't care less about your "opinion".
You can have whatever "opinion" you want.
The problem is when you try to claim your beliefs are "Biblical", when they're not.
The Bible NEVER teaches that our regeneration is allegedly caused by our first "coming unto Christ".

Its always our choice, God does not pick and choose as you Evangelical believe... we choose to accept God and Jesus Christ, we choose to repent and be baptized...

All you're doing is making bankrupt claims.
Nobody cares.

we are no predestined as you just pointed out....quote Theo... "We don't regenerate ourselves, GOD regenerates us."

It's funny.... You quote Scripture and tell me to "deal with it", yet you REJECT Scripture which explicitly teaches what you deny:

Rom. 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Eph. 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Titus 3:5
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost...

I'm not sure why you think this doesn't teach "we are not predestined".

It teaches that God ("he") saves us by (1) regenerating us, and (2) givinig us the Holy Spiritt.

 

[YeshuaFan]

Here:


I'm advocating Eph 2:10, that we are created FOR good works that are ordained of God.
See post #919. Apperantly it doesn't matter what we do, we are "eternally secured", which would make the commandments optional.

We obey in order to pl;ease the Lord , but that would be after saved , as they would have NOTHING to do with us getting saved and fully justified by God!

 

[YeshuaFan]

Let's try this one, Where our critics claim that salvation does not depend on keeping the commandments. It's the same statement. Our critics seem to be confused about it. Of course, it's necessary to keep the commandments, right?

we do NOTHING to merit salvation, as its a free gift from God to us, received thru faith alone!

 

[YeshuaFan]

Yes. I'm sure he will. Over 50% of them are Christians who think they've been saved.

We are right now saved and fully justified, and keep growing into image of Christ!

 

[Richard7]

Um, no.... "Regeneration" is a noun.
If you want to say that "regenerate" is a verb, you would be correct. But Scripture never teaches that we are to "regenerate" ourselves. We are "regenerat-ED", passive participle.
It's something done TO us.
By GOD.



Look, I couldn't care less about your "opinion".
You can have whatever "opinion" you want.
The problem is when you try to claim your beliefs are "Biblical", when they're not.
The Bible NEVER teaches that our regeneration is allegedly caused by our first "coming unto Christ".



All you're doing is making bankrupt claims.
Nobody cares.




It's funny.... You quote Scripture and tell me to "deal with it", yet you REJECT Scripture which explicitly teaches what you deny:

Rom. 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Eph. 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,



I'm not sure why you think this doesn't teach "we are not predestined".

It teaches that God ("he") saves us by (1) regenerating us, and (2) givinig us the Holy Spiritt.

So if you could care less, please skip all the below and hopefully others will read and learn new light and knowledge...hmm


Acts 15:18 "Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world"

Nephi 9:6 "the Lord knoweth all things from the beginning; wherefore, he prepareth a way to accomplish all his works among the children of men"

Romans 8:29-30
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified"

No argument with all the above... most newer version of the scripture use foreordain or appoint and not predestinate...

“In the premortal spirit world, God appointed certain spirits to fulfill specific missions during their mortal lives. This is called foreordination. Foreordination does not guarantee that individuals will receive certain callings or responsibilities. Such opportunities come in this life as a result of the righteous exercise of agency, just as foreordination came as a result of righteousness in the premortal existence.”
(Gospel Topics, lds.org)

Joseph Smith Translation ... sorry that I have to bring this up to one who has already committed to predestination Calvinism..

Romans 8:29-30

29 For whom (JST “For him whom) he (God) did foreknow (knew those who were noble in their pre-mortal life), he also did predestinate (foreordain) to be conformed to the image of his Son (to successfully follow the Savior and become “joint heirs” with him), that he might be the firstborn among many brethren (that they might be exalted).

30 Moreover whom he (God) did predestinate (foreordain), them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

(JST “Moreover, him whom he did predestinate (foreordain), him he also called; and him whom he called, him he also sanctified, [fit to be in the present of God, because of their worthiness to have the Atonement cleanse them]. And him whom he sanctified, him he also glorified.”)

I wonder why the newer Bibles are now using Foreordained) hmm.

Calvinists claimed that once a person’s destiny was divinely decreed, it was irrevocable: “Angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished.”2

To Latter-day Saints, the idea of predestination is unscriptural. Not only does it deny what Paul and other prophets taught about agency, but it also limits God’s love to only a select few. Elder Joseph Fielding Smith stated emphatically that “no person is ever predestined to salvation or damnation. Every person has free agency.”3 Similarly, the Book of Mormon prophet Jacob taught that “one being is as precious in [God’s] sight as the other.” (Jacob 2:21.)

The problem with the idea of predestination, as C. H. Dodd put it, is that it “sets the ground of a man’s hope of salvation entirely outside himself.”4 Elder James E. Talmage also denounced the concept of predestination, saying that it makes us merely “automatons,”5 acting out a predetermined destiny decreed by God.

I Have a Question

I Have a Question

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

 

[YeshuaFan]

Those who follow Christ.

Sure. So long as they endure to the end.


How ironic. One must be a Christian to know what a Christian is.

It's statements like these that leads one to believe that keeping the commandments is irrelevant. But I think most people can tell, that you all (as no one has it now) don't have eternal life, PERIOD. This life is not eternal life. That life is just a dream. One in which you guys have no clue what it's about, so it's laughable that you think you have it now.

saved and kept by Grace of God!

 

[YeshuaFan]

Jesus has already purchased salvation for all mankind, through His Atonement and resurrection--as a free gift to all:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

His Atonement and Resurrection conquered death and hell for all men--as it relates to the Fall. All men can come and partake freely now--all are absolved of the condemnation brought to all men due to the Fall.

Due to the Fall--all men were condemned. Through Jesus Christ--all men are justified--absolved of the condemnation due to the Fall. Free gift. Jesus Christ alone. Eternal life is now available to all men, as a free gift.

Now--all men are judged according to their own works, and not Adam's:

Matthew 16:27--King James Version
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

So--where do we find God giving His grace unto eternal life-- to them which refuse to obey Him?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Only those who are His own will get saved by that Cross!

 

[YeshuaFan]

Mag--I have a question about that statement--- "have to keep the commandments"--for what to happen?

saved b y grace alone, as obedience to Lord jesus reveals one has been saved already, and how we obey determines how eternally rewarded or not!

 

[Aaron32]

We can't earn what we already have. Mormonism contradicts God's word and is a vocal critic of Christians.

We have justification, sanctification is still a work in progress.

Joseph Smith? started a "church" in opposition to Christianity.

I disagree, Christ restored a Church in opposition to priestcraft.

18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

Joseph Smith—History 1

Joseph Smith tells of his ancestry, family members, and their early abodes—An unusual excitement about religion prevails in western New York—He determines to seek wisdom as directed by James—The Father and the Son appear, and Joseph is called to his prophetic ministry. (Verses 1–20.)

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

Thank you for illustrating my point.
I don't see anywhere Christianity is made the enemy, unless Christianity endorses corruption.

I prayed with tears to know God and His will and He directed me to read Hebrews 1:1 and Proverbs 3:5-6.

Good. I'm glad you received answers. No please respect the answers others have received. I can't speak for anyone else, but those scriptures are congruent with my beliefs

 

[Aaron32]

We obey in order to please the Lord , but that would be after saved , as they would have NOTHING to do with us getting saved and fully justified by God!

Salvation is atleast two parts: justification and sanctification. We are fully justified, but we are not fully sanctified.
We obey because we love God, and obedience is the path to sanctification, in order to please the Lord and glorify Him.

 

[Theo1689]

No argument with all the above... most newer version of the scripture use foreordain or appoint and not predestinate...

Um.... They're SYNONYMS.

Joseph Smith Translation ... sorry that I have to bring this up to one who has already committed to predestination Calvinism..

Romans 8:29-30

29 For whom (JST “For him whom) he (God) did foreknow (knew those who were noble in their pre-mortal life), he also did predestinate (foreordain) to be conformed to the image of his Son (to successfully follow the Savior and become “joint heirs” with him), that he might be the firstborn among many brethren (that they might be exalted).

All the red additions are unBiblical garbage.

Calvinists claimed that once a person’s destiny was divinely decreed,

It's what the Bible teaches.

To Latter-day Saints, the idea of predestination is unscriptural.

Rom. 8:29-30, Eph. 1:3-5,11, etc.

Not only does it deny what Paul and other prophets taught about agency, but it also limits God’s love to only a select few.

No, GOD limits His love.
And I have no idea why you would call millions and millions "a select few".

Elder Joseph Fielding Smith stated emphatically ...

... nothing of value.

The problem with the idea of predestination, as C. H. Dodd put it, is that it “sets the ground of a man’s hope of salvation entirely outside himself.”

I don't consider that a "problem".
I consider it a RELIEF.

Elder James E. Talmage also denounced the concept of predestination, saying that it makes us merely “automatons,”

Apparently he didn't understand predestination any better than you do.

Btw, isn't Talmage the one that dberrie accuses of having "expired scholarship"?

 

[Theo1689]

I disagree, Christ restored a Church in opposition to priestcraft.

From Merriam-Webster:

priestcraft​

1: professional knowledge and skill in respect to the exercise of priestly functions

Mormonism is a church that has CREATED "priestcraft"
-- Aaronic "priests"
-- Melchizedek "priests"
-- Temple works by "priests"

 

[dberrie2020]

From Merriam-Webster:

priestcraft​

1: professional knowledge and skill in respect to the exercise of priestly functions

Mormonism is a church that has CREATED "priestcraft"
-- Aaronic "priests"
-- Melchizedek "priests"
-- Temple works by "priests"

Just seems like there are priests everywhere you look:

Revelation 1:6---King James Version
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[dberrie2020]

dberrie2020 said:I believe where a line of demarcation occurs is when the critics claim one is saved, excluding all obedience to Jesus Christ--including keeping the commandments.

1) That is NOT what "the critics claim".

Yes it is. If there is disagreement--please list what acts of obedience the critics claim is necessary in obtaining His grace unto eternal life.

Here is what the LDS preach:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The critics reject keeping the commandments is connected to obtaining eternal life.

The LDS agree with Jesus's testimony above.

 

[Theo1689]

dberrie2020 said:I believe where a line of demarcation occurs is when the critics claim one is saved, excluding all obedience to Jesus Christ--including keeping the commandments.



Yes it is. If there is disagreement--please list what acts of obedience the critics claim is necessary in obtaining His grace unto eternal life.

You are NOT going by "what critics claim".

You are going by YOUR rationalization of what YOU think we believe.

(And guess what? Our beliefs are STILL off-topic.)


I've explained to you a least 20 times what we ACTUALLY believe, and so has Aaron. You aren't interested in what we believe, you are only interested in MISREPRESENTING what we believe. Which is especially strange since our beliefs are OFF-TOPIC.

Here is what the LDS preach:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

When you ever get to Rom. 3:19-20, please let me know:

Rom. 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

 

[Richard7]

Um.... They're SYNONYMS.

Absolutely, but you did not address the why! Why make the change from Predestined to Foreordained? what? just because? chuckle.
Alert or warning, do not read any more if you consider this should be on another form for discussion... none of the below will be of any worth to you... hmm

All the red additions are unBiblical garbage.

I had a red letter King James version when I was 10yrs old... and you call that garbage! on my!

It's what the Bible teaches.


Rom. 8:29-30, Eph. 1:3-5,11, etc.



No, GOD limits His love.
And I have no idea why you would call millions and millions "a select few".

And that is why Calvinism claims so many souls... and I would say you ignore the Billions and Billions since the time of Adam.. and you say God limits his love... sorry but I don't really have a desire to belong to such a elitist body of Christians...

Why did Christ waste his time in hell and preaching to those lost souls? I dunno.. chuckle.

... nothing of value.

And Calvinist have what value? that a limited loving God would decide in advance that millions of Jews would be gassed alone with their babies and children? That rapist would even rape a child? my, my that is quite a limited loving God...

I don't consider that a "problem".

I understand why now! you admitted to a limited loving God ... hmm ... so until Calvin came around folks did not understand the limited Loving God.. What a blessing he could translate the Bible so well...

I consider it a RELIEF.

Yes, knowing that Theo is one of the Chosen can be very humbling I imagine... so why waste you time here if everything is already predestined?
I am consigned to hell no matter how well versed you are.... you can't change someone who is predestined to be a Mormon...

Apparently he didn't understand predestination any better than you do.

Btw, isn't Talmage the one that dberrie accuses of having "expired scholarship"?

Ask Dberry... I am not my brothers keeper... chuckle.

 

[dberrie2020]

You are NOT going by "what critics claim".

Yes I am. Both you and Bonnie have agreed the theology the critics here--claims one obtains eternal life independent of any acts of obedience.(works)

You are going by YOUR rationalization of what YOU think we believe.

Theo--let's just cut to the chase--and list what acts of obedience you believe is necessary for one to obtain eternal life.

When you list those acts of obedience(works)--then you can claim I am wrong. Until then--I maintain my position.

 

[Theo1689]

Absolutely, but you did not address the why! Why make the change from Predestined to Foreordained? what? just because? chuckle.

Since you agree that they're synonyms, then it doesn't MATTER why one was used over the other.

Alert or warning, do not read any more if you consider this should be on another form for discussion... none of the below will be of any worth to you... hmm

This simply shows how disingenuous Mormons are.
He CONTINUES off-topically attacking the critics' beliefs, and therefore BREAKING the rules. And so I have two options:

1) respond to his comments, and thereby ENABLE him to continue being off-topic.
2) ignore his comments, and allow them to stand unaddressed, and so he successfully misrepresents what we believe.

For Mormons, it's a "win-win", which is why they continue breaking the rules.

I had a red letter King James version when I was 10yrs old... and you call that garbage! on my!

Very disingenuous of you.
I was speaking of the ADDITIONS you wrote in Rom. 8 which you put in bolded red.
Christ is never quoted in Rom. 8.

So why must you continue to misrepresent me?

And that is why Calvinism claims so many souls... and I would say you ignore the Billions and Billions since the time of Adam.. and you say God limits his love... sorry but I don't really have a desire to belong to such a elitist body of Christians...

Nothing but worthless name-calling by you.

Why did Christ waste his time in hell

Why do YOU assume "Christ wasted His time"?
I don't.

And Calvinist have what value? that a limited loving God would decide in advance that millions of Jews would be gassed alone with their babies and children?

It was evil for the Germans to murder them for unjust and evil reasons.
But unless you want to claim that the Jews were sinless (Newsflash: they weren't), God was perfectly just in what He did.

If God caused me to be killed in gas chamber, or die in a fire, or be struck by lightning, He would be perfectly just.

The problem with Mormons is that they neither understand the holiness of God, nor the sinfulness of man.

Rom. 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

That rapist would even rape a child? my, my that is quite a limited loving God...

And that rapist will be condemned for what he CHOSE to do.

I understand why now! you admitted to a limited loving God ... hmm ... so until Calvin came around folks did not understand the limited Loving God..

You are completely ignorant of church history.
You are also completely ignorant of the Bible.

Psa. 5:5 The boastful shall not stand before your eyes;
you hate all evildoers.

Yes, knowing that Theo is one of the Chosen can be very humbling I imagine...

I know you meant that sarcastically, but it truly IS very humbling.

so why waste you time here if everything is already predestined?

Again you show your ignorance of the Bible.
But then again, I don't have to answer to you, do I?

I am consigned to hell no matter how well versed you are....

I don't know that, so I have to wonder how you are so sure.
But if you are so sure, maybe that explains why you act the way you do.

But for all I know, you could be one of the elect, and find your way out of Mormonism, and into truth, like Janice did, and the Wilders did...

you can't change someone who is predestined to be a Mormon...

You're right, I can't. And I don't try to.
But once again, you demonstrate your ignorance of the Bible:

1Cor. 3:5 What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. 7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth.

 

[dberrie2020]

When you ever get to Rom. 3:19-20, please let me know:

Rom. 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

I have already addressed this--and asked you what the Mosaic Law has to do with the gospel connecting our obedience to God's grace? The "works of the law" is a reference to certain rituals under the Mosaic Law--not the gospel of Jesus Christ.

This is connected to the gospel and eternal life:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Or--IOW--

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.