Mormons vs Mormonism

Excellent, but it's much more complex than just saying we are saved by Grace...

Do you agree with Pres. Nelson? “to be saved—or to gain salvation—means to be saved from physical and spiritual death.” Exaltation, he further taught, “refers to the highest state of happiness and glory in the celestial realm.” “The time to prepare for our eventual salvation and exaltation is now.”
Yes.
More than just put forth personal effort... we must choose and desire and live the life that leads to the finish line...
Motives are a big part of that too - are we living in charity, or are we seeking heavenly rewards.
Merit might be a better word... if the person is striving to be worthy....but I get your point, Grace is divine help... Gods enabling power or grace, results in blessing in this life and gaining blessing in the life to come, exaltation!
thank you!
Faith alone is still a choice and merits salvation in one of other kingdoms... or maybe only the terrestrial Kingdom... I'm not sure.
Yes. We still have agency and consequences.
 
No. I'm not. That would be a straw man because that's not what I did.

Actually, I simplified it.

This looks like a cop-out to avoid answering the question.

No. The question is accurate.

I know. I believe I already said that. @Mesenja followed it up with a quote from Elder Bednar which said exactly the same thing.

LOL. If you say so. Now I have to wonder what you think you're contrasting.

I do trust God. The problem is, you seem to be getting a different message than I am from the same being. Is that possible? I don't think it is. Again, as I say to all the other critics on this board, only one truth exists, anything that is not that truth must be false. We could both be wrong, but we can't both be right.

So now, how necessary is work to our salvation? Simple question.

Then, how important are works to salvation? Care to answer the question?
As I said, in our church, it is. However, the difference between salvation and exaltation is a political one, a cultural one. The leaders of our church teach no other salvation.

Then what good is our personal efforts? On the one had, you say they are necessary and then here, it's not what gets us across the finish line. So, where do works fit in and how necessary are they to getting us across the finish line, if at all?

qualify for what? What do you do to qualify and yet not earn?

yea, we're not God, You'll have to try harder to explain it.
It's because of all the protestants who live there.
Richard seems to understand me just fine. If you have issues with my beliefs feel free to pester him, and maybe he can clarify things for you.

Just listen to Jesus, bro:
"For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another." (3 Nephi 11:29)
 
That's a question between God and the individual.
Again, another cop-out, so I'll keep it simple. How necessary are works to salvation? Is that a question between God and the individual?
Everyone is at different points of conversion.
True, but irrelevant to my question. Here's one for you, at what point do you think David's conversion will make any difference to his salvation? How long will David have to pay for his own transgressions? Depending on how one defines salvation, some would say that he will never pay in all of eternity. Some will say he has already paid. But, whatever anyone things salvation is, for sure, he has lost the promises given to Abraham forever.
 
Richard seems to understand me just fine.
Oh. I understand you just fine, as well. I understand that you won't answer the question, how important are our works to our salvation?
Just listen to Jesus, bro:
Sure, dude.
"For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another." (3 Nephi 11:29)
Another cop-out. "Oh, you have the spirit of contention so you're of the devil" :rolleyes:

Care to answer the question?
 
Ephesians 3:6
21st Century King James Version
6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs,and of the same body,and partakers of His promise in Christ by the Gospel,
Funny the way other Christian churches interpret the scriptures around us. Oh but it doesn't say joint, it says fellow. As if that would make a difference.
 
The problem I see seems to center around the concept of legalism. I don't know how anyone else interprets that, but to me, it seems to mean that there are strict rules that if you fail to obey them you don't get the rewards. Such a concept negates the work of Christ and the opportunity that His work offers us to obtain forgiveness. Legally, we are all condemned. So, I'm not buying into the legalism argument as a requirement in mortality. Keeping the commandments will not guarantee salvation just as having faith in the assurance of our hope for many other things is not a saving faith.

The formula that @Mesenja offered, defines the faith that will save. That formula includes works and among those works, though not limited to, are keeping the commandments - all of them. Along the way, we repent and continue to strive to keep the commandments. If we are committed to that path, the path that follows Jesus' teachings, Christ will cover the rest. That is how we qualify, earn, merit salvational grace.

Further, I do not think we will get a free ride after death. We won't suddenly be people that we never were before. Whatever weakness we had, we'll still have and on the morning of the resurrection, we will receive the body that we had, perfected of course, but our spirit will be the same with all the same problems we had when our spirits were embodied in this life and we will have to learn to overcome those weaknesses. We'll be a lot closer to the source of light which will give us a greater opportunity for growth, and that also made possible through Christ, but ultimately, in order to dwell with God in his presence, we will have to be clean, every wit and that process may take very long time, a very very long time.

Sure, some of us, many of us, will be healed in a instant from our weaknesses. We can call that conversion. That seems reasonable, but in order to live with God, we will need to adhere to the laws of heaven perfectly and innately. That legalism will not go away.
 
Care to answer the question?
I'd love to give you an answer that you'd accept, and expresses my thoughts clearly.
But if it's not there, it's just not there.
I suppose we'll need to rely on something greater than ourselves to reach understanding.
 
That was a single reply to you...

OK.

I have been invited to attend other Christian Churches by neighbors and friends, I go with a open mind and learn something new every time I go... are you willing to do the same?

To what end Richard?

I have noticed, your replies are simple and to the point! Hogwash! must be one of the reasons you're here... do you really think such a divisive claim is productive?

One of my hot moments but no less productive than your claim that caused me to write hogwash. Seems we may have something in common, huh.

Right, being productive is your making simple and mocking replies such as Hogwash... interesting

It wasn't mocking. It was a statement that I viscerally disagreed with your claim. Now look at us.
 
It wasn't mocking. It was a statement that I viscerally disagreed with your claim. Now look at us.
"they worship a much different Christ, not the one found in the Scriptures but one that man has imagined"

1). Please explain in your own words how you interpret scripture relating to the trinity, which word is not used in the Bible, as One God and not One God in purpose, heart and mind...

John 17... that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.

2).
a. All may be one
b. Father and Christ are one
c. we can also be one in them.

Does this not ring true, being closer to what we consider God, Jesus Christ and the HG as one Godhead in unity and purpose...

Is your deep feeling subjective or objective about this?
 
"they worship a much different Christ, not the one found in the Scriptures but one that man has imagined"

1). Please explain in your own words how you interpret scripture relating to the trinity, which word is not used in the Bible, as One God and not One God in purpose, heart and mind...

John 17... that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.

2).
a. All may be one
b. Father and Christ are one
c. we can also be one in them.


Does this not ring true, being closer to what we consider God, Jesus Christ and the HG as one Godhead in unity and purpose...

Is your deep feeling subjective or objective about this?

I will work on a reply.
 
Did God tell you that? Or is that just what you believe? Why do you shortchange the promises found in the New Testament? If you had an eternity to grow and you lived with the greatest being there ever was, you don't think you could become like Him? Do you honestly believe you could adore and truly love a being that kept power over you that you could never rise to the freedom that He enjoys? Does anyone love a CEO who won't relinquish his seat until he's dead? Well, God is never going to die and He's never going to give up His seat, but the next best thing would have the same power and freedom that He has, to be the father of worlds without end.
I don't shortchange the promises of God, but I view God as higher, for example as truly omnipresent, not just in concept but in existence (Jer 23:23, Psalm 139:7-10; Pro 15:3).

I would accept that you might not want that. But I don't get where you get the idea that God doesn't want you to. What kind of being is it that doesn't want the absolute best for his children? What kind of Father keeps his children down?
The same Father who made us a little lower than angels, without the knowledge of good and evil. The thing is, being a god isn't the absolute best, Jesus is the absolute best for his children.

In John 14:12, Jesus compares the work that He's doing and exclaims that "whoever believes in [Him] ... will do even greater things [than the works that Jesus did]".
Well, is the context of this verse before or after we die based this verse and the surrounding verses?
And who is actually doing the work according to verses 13 and 14: people or Jesus?

What work can that be?
Well, the work that Jesus did was the miracles... but I don't think that's what you're asking. The question I pose back, then, is what works does the Bible specifically say we will do? I can't see a definitive answer, but I think the above two questions lead to an answer away from your conclusion.

What could possibly be greater than saving a whole world from their sins?
I would say, none. But what about you?

Do you not believe John when he says that we will be "like him"? I believe that we must.
1 John 3:2 "Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is."
Has Jesus appeared to a man "as yet what we will be" according to LDS doctrine?
I do believe that we will be like him as opposed to a kind of copy of Him, or an exact representation of Him.

What do you think it means to be a joint heir with Christ? If it just said, an heir with Christ, that would mean we were included in the will and we will receive a portion of the inheritance, but a joint-heir is completely different. Joint-heirs receive everything that the heir receives. Whatever Jesus got, the joint-heirs receive without limit, equally across the board.
But if LDS teaching says that we're already gods, and these things refer to the things that make Jesus a god, then don't we already have these things?
If not, then what's the difference?

That's your choice, but it doesn't have to be that way.
I disagree, but thank you for the kind gesture :D
 
Just answer the question without bloviating. Try to keep it simple like my question is.

Well, I understand that you're just going to beat around the bush and not answer the question.
Since works are a fruit of faith, it's pretty difficult question to answer. I can hook up a dead person to a machine forcing them to breathe, but that doesn't mean they're living. So you're question is like "How important is breathing to stay alive?" The answer is "Very important", but that doesn't mean that "breathing" = "life".
Likewise, a person can be completely selfish in seeking heavenly rewards and/or praise of man, not have a changed heart, go through all the motions, and be a tare among the wheat.
Thus, your question can be misleading. There's a whole spiritual aspect you're not acknowledging.
So is this where you keep badgering me, or are you going to seek to try and understand?
 
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But if LDS teaching says that we're already gods, and these things refer to the things that make Jesus a god, then don't we already have these things?
If not, then what's the difference?

Revelations 21:7

He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Inherit all things.... what does that mean to you?​

1). All things .... just somethings or specifically what will we not consider all things?
2). Wealth, Property, Worlds, Space, Time, Kingdom etc.
3). Genetics, characteristic and predisposition
4). All of one's belongings.

You need to ask, is this a literal inheritance or just a metaphor or allegory... real or imaginary?


1). God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.”
2). Psalms, “Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?”
3). “to him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.”
Revelation.

What exactly the early church fathers meant when they spoke of becoming God is open to interpretation,15 but it is clear that references to deification became more contested in the late Roman period and were infrequent by the medieval era. The first known objection by a church father to teaching deification came in the fifth century.16 By the sixth century, teachings on “becoming God” appear more limited in scope, as in the definition provided by Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite (ca. A.D. 500): “Deification … is the attaining of likeness to God and union with him so far as is possible.17

Why did these beliefs fade from prominence? Changing perspectives on the creation of the world may have contributed to the gradual shift toward more limited views of human potential. The earliest Jewish and Christian commentaries on the Creation assumed that God had organized the world out of preexisting materials, emphasizing the goodness of God in shaping such a life-sustaining order.18 But the incursion of new philosophical ideas in the second century led to the development of a doctrine that God created the universe ex nihilo—“out of nothing.” This ultimately became the dominant teaching about the Creation within the Christian world.19 In order to emphasize God’s power, many theologians reasoned that nothing could have existed for as long as He had. It became important in Christian circles to assert that God had originally been completely alone.

Creation ex nihilo widened the perceived gulf between God and humans. It became less common to teach either that human souls had existed before the world or that they could inherit and develop the attributes of God in their entirety in the future.20 Gradually, as the depravity of humankind and the immense distance between Creator and creature were increasingly emphasized, the concept of deification faded from Western Christianity,21 though it remains a central tenet of Eastern Orthodoxy, one of the three major branches of Christianity.22

 
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Since works are a fruit of faith, it's pretty difficult question to answer.
It's not difficult at all.
I can hook up a dead person to a machine forcing them to breathe, but that doesn't mean they're living.
LOL. Quit bloviating.
So you're question is like "How important is breathing to stay alive?" The answer is "Very important", but that doesn't mean that "breathing" = "life".
Likewise, a person can be completely selfish in seeking heavenly rewards and/or praise of man, not have a changed heart, go through all the motions, and be a tare among the wheat.
All irrelevant. I want to know how important works are where it applies to our salvation. That's it. If u don't do the works, can you be saved? Simple question.
Thus, your question can be misleading.
No. My question isn't the problem. Your answer is, albeit you still haven't given an answer.

I'll answer it from my perspective. If you don't do the works, you can't be saved no matter how much faith you claim to have. That how important works are to our salvation. For example, if you don't get baptized by someone having authority, you can't be saved. That's not a commandment, it's a legal requirement.
There's a whole spiritual aspect you're not acknowledging.
Maybe, but I want your simple answer to my simple question. After I get that, then we can address what u think I'm not acknowledging.
So is this where you keep badgering me, or are you going to seek to try and understand?
I need to know where your bloviating is leading. Answer my question and then I'll try to understand.
 
It's not difficult at all.

LOL. Quit bloviating.

All irrelevant. I want to know how important works are where it applies to our salvation. That's it. If u don't do the works, can you be saved? Simple question.
Yes. Overly simple -which is a logical fallacy.
No. My question isn't the problem. Your answer is, albeit you still haven't given an answer.
You operate in a world where there's no fallacious questions?
Tell me, BoJ. How often to you beat your wife? Don't beat around the bush. Just answer the question.
I'll answer it from my perspective. If you don't do the works, you can't be saved no matter how much faith you claim to have. That how important works are to our salvation. For example, if you don't get baptized by someone having authority, you can't be saved. That's not a commandment, it's a legal requirement.
Sure. That's works for me. Ditto.
I need to know where your bloviating is leading. Answer my question and then I'll try to understand.
You NEED to know, do you? I'm honored. Lol!
 
I don't shortchange the promises of God,
That a matter of opinion and the subject of debate right now.
but I view God as higher, for example as truly omnipresent, not just in concept but in existence (Jer 23:23, Psalm 139:7-10; Pro 15:3).
All senseless babble. Of course God is higher. Your idea of truly omnipresent may not be the same as mine. I think you believe it's a physical thing and of course, we don't. God is a man in form. His DNA is the same as ours. We are his offspring, both spiritually and physically. And though He is aware of all things, His foreknowledge trump's that awareness.

The idea that God is an ethereal nothingness is foreign to the scriptures and our religion. That is exactly the opposite of what Jesus has become. He proved it to his apostles after his resurrection. God went there. We are following.
The thing is, being a god isn't the absolute best
There's something better? Let me know when u find it. You haven't answered my question. What kind of father would keep his children down?
Well, is the context of this verse before or after we die based this verse and the surrounding verses?
And who is actually doing the work according to verses 13 and 14: people or Jesus?
It doesn't matter. The people doing greater work are those that believe in Christ. Period. Are you going to keep deflecting my questions?
Well, the work that Jesus did was the miracles
He did far more than that.
but I don't think that's what you're asking.
I'm asking what work could we possibly do that would be far greater than the work Jesus did. Was my question not clear?
The question I pose back, then, is what works does the Bible specifically say we will do?
Again, that is irrelevant. What works could possibly be better than the work Jesus did? Spend some time and see if you can grasp that issue. Think on it critically. Stop deflecting and avoiding. I invite anyone else who has an idea what that might be and how they would expect that we could do it. Hint, it is found in the promises that Abraham received.
I would say, none. But what about you?
Then what was Jesus saying? Was he lying? Filling us with something that was not true?
1 John 3:2 "Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is."
Has Jesus appeared to a man "as yet what we will be" according to LDS doctrine?
That's loaded. I have no idea what you think our doctrine is, nor do I have any idea what the point of your question is. In context, this is yet future. I believe it will be true of those who will be present at Christ's coming in his glory. Without a doubt, there will be 144,000 who will fit this description in mortality. It will have.to be so, if Satan is to be chained in the pit. But, what we "will be" is "like him". We must be or we will not "see him as he is".

Your still avoiding the questions, deflecting.
I do believe that we will be like him as opposed to a kind of copy of Him, or an exact representation of Him.
I'm not sure what point you think ur trying to make. What does that mean? Explain it to like I was an 8 year-old and didn't have the sophisticated learning that you have.
But if LDS teaching says that we're already gods
Our doctrine does not teach that. Nor have I made that claim.
and these things refer to the things that make Jesus a god, then don't we already have these things?
If not, then what's the difference?
Your opening statement isn't correct. There is no connection between that supposition and your questions. They don't make any sense to me. What things make Jesus God?
 
Yes. Overly simple -which is a logical fallacy.
I'm not sure what your saying yes to. Could you address that in a complete sentence so that there is no confusion? Like, yes we can be saved without works or something like that?
You operate in a world where there's no fallacious questions?
My question isn't fallacious.
Tell me, BoJ. How often to you beat your wife? Don't beat around the bush. Just answer the question
That's none of your business. I do understand your point, but my question is not a trap so that no matter what you answer, you are admitting to "beating your wife". Perhaps you can point out where I'm wrong about that. All I want to know is how important are our works to salvation. Can we be saved without those works? Simple, right?
You NEED to know, do you? I'm honored. Lol!
???

Ok, so, what about murder? Can you be saved if you've murdered someone? So, you got baptized and then killed your parents in premeditated cold blood. Can you be saved?

At least, now, I think we are getting somewhere. No one can be saved if they haven't been baptized. Regardless of their confession of Christ as their Messiah, personal savior. No matter how good they are in all other aspects of their life, if they haven't been baptized, that's it. No chance for salvation. That's a start. That work is very necessary.
 
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At least, now, I think we are getting somewhere. No one can be saved if they haven't been baptized. Regardless of their confession of Christ as their Messiah, personal savior. No matter how good they are in all other aspects of their life, if they haven't been baptized, that's it. No chance for salvation. That's a start. That work is very necessary.
Salvation isn’t a work of man it is the work of God.
Colossians 2:12
12
buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
 
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