Mother Mary

This understanding has been taught since the early days of the Church. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V:19,1(A.D. 180),in ANF,I:547

"For as Eve was seduced by the word of an angel to flee from God, having rebelled against His Word, so Mary by the word of an angel received the glad tidings that she would bear God by obeying his Word. The former was seduced to disobey God, but the latter was persuaded to obey God, so that the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. As the human race was subjected to death through [the act of] a virgin, so it was saved by a virgin."
Irenaeus isn't the Bible. We do not get doctrines from the ECFs..
 
God must have considered both parties, Adam and Eve to have sinned since both (and both genders of offspring) were punished. I've never heard the Adam off fishing scenario before though. Scripture might have been responsible for the misogynistic overtones when Paul wrote this to Timothy.

1 Tim 2 8 I desire, then, that in every place the men should pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or argument; 9 also that the women should dress themselves modestly and decently in suitable clothing, not with their hair braided, or with gold, pearls, or expensive clothes, 10 but with good works, as is proper for women who profess reverence for God. 11 Let a woman learn in silence with full submission. 12 I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she is to keep silent. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 15 Yet she will be saved through childbearing, provided they continue in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.
I know both sinned. Never said otherwise. Eve was tricked, but Adam sinned with his eyes wide open.

Paul's letters are not misogynistic at all. He was simply telling the truth about Adam and Eve.
 
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The Marian Doctrines are leading people away from Jesus. As stated by others the focus becomes Mary as if she is the saviour and not Jesus.

They elevate Mary to the level of God by giving her attributes of God and also by making her our Mother that is putting her on the same level of God who is our Father. This is so wrong she is not divine and God is. She cannot save us and God can. She is created where as God is the creator. Such a big difference.

The scripture tell us very little about Mary. One of the genealogies might be her's. The angel appeared to her and gave her God's instructions. She is a virgin, visits her cousin, she is Jesus' mother. Then she does what is required under Jewish law after childbirth. The family goes to Egypt. She loses Jesus when he is 12 and then she asks if he can help with the wine problem at Cana. We hear that she wants to take Jesus home, is at the foot of the cross and is at Pentecost. Not a lot in scripture at all.

However, the RCC has added so much more to her story and it is all fairy tales. She is an ic, a pv these beliefs come from the fraudulent book - the poj. Yep the RCC ran with those lies and added them to the salvation story. They have her being her floating into the heavens, they don't know if she died or was taken alive. There is no evidence of this event occurring, nothing in scripture and no witnesses.

Why the need for Mary to take the focus off Jesus. I can only think of one who benefits from these lies and that is Satan.

This shows a lack of belief in how much Jesus loves us. A lack of faith in Jesus being able to save us. Apparently He cannot do it by Himself, He still needs His mother. Really. The Marian doctrines supports the false works based salvation. Mary worked her way into heaven.

But it is taking the glory from Jesus and giving it to a created being.

Scripture is clear all humans are sinners. Rom 3:23 is one of the verses that clearly states this. The only exception is Jesus.
Scripture only says to pray to the Lord, our Father and Jesus. Jesus taught us to pray to our Father only. luke 11

Just two very important verses to throw doubt on the Marian doctrines. Others have posted more verses that also throw doubt on the Marian doctrines and the RCs praying to Mary and bowing to statues.

Peter found out what happens when our attention is diverted from Jesus he sank. The RCC is diverting attention from Jesus to Mary.
 
I will add this does not make the RCC lies about non RCs true, it is a lie to say we do not respect and honour Mary. We respect Mary, all humans are to be respected. We appreciate all that she would through being the Mother of Jesus. But we do not put the focus on her and take it off her son.

In fact, Mary would be appalled at the buildings named after her, the statues and especially the prayers. She would be like Paul and Barnabas:

Acts 14:14+

But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of this, they tore their clothes and rushed out into the crowd, shouting:
“Friends, why are you doing this? We too are only human, like you. We are bringing you good news, telling you to turn from these worthless things to the living God, who made the heavens and the earth and the sea and everything in them.
 
No one is saying those dead in the Lord are not part of the Body of Christ. But what we DO say is that this doesn't make them omniscient in heaven and capable of hearing prayers directed towards them, give them the ability to answer those prayers, or help those still alive on the earth. Jesus told us to Whom we should direct our prayers....tell us, WHO is that, Romish?
See--this is a perfect example of overthinking things.

1) Why would hearing the prayers of people on earth require omniscience? There are a finite number of people praying at any given time.

2) The limitations of human flesh do not exist in heaven.
 
See--this is a perfect example of overthinking things.

1) Why would hearing the prayers of people on earth require omniscience? There are a finite number of people praying at any given time.

There could be thousands of people all over the world praying to Mary at the same time. Remember?
2) The limitations of human flesh do not exist in heaven.
Being in heaven does not automatically give one the powers of God.

I am overthinking? Rather, you are underthinking all of this!
 
See--this is a perfect example of overthinking things.

1) Why would hearing the prayers of people on earth require omniscience? There are a finite number of people praying at any given time.

2) The limitations of human flesh do not exist in heaven.
To what extent do our human limitations not exist in heaven? Give us some details about what those in heaven are currently able to do or not do. Then provide us with a source, other than your opinion of where this info comes from.
 
These RCC'ers think there are Altars in Heaven where the sacrifice Humans and drink their blood and eat their flesh

Rev.6:9
And when he had opened the fifth seal,
I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God,
and for the testimony which they held:

the angels must be awfully busy
 
Why would hearing the prayers of people on earth require omniscience?

1. Because to fully know the hearts of all means to be omniscient.
https://forums.carm.org/threads/the...hich-demonstrates-he-is-god.8978/#post-638601

Thus, only God is the proper recipient of prayer.
https://forums.carm.org/threads/only-pray-to-god.7370/


2. And from a Roman Catholic website which affirms this knowledge means to be omniscient:

Christ Claimed to be Omniscient (All Knowing)

MATTHEW 9:4
And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts.

(Cf Also MATTHEW 22:18, MATTHEW 26:46, Mark 2:8, MARK 5:30, LUKE 22:10-13, JOHN 5:42, JOHN 6:64, JOHN 13:10-11, MATTHEW 12:25, MATTHEW 13:54, LUKE 2:47, Luke 6:8, Luke 9:47, John 2:24-25, JOHN 4:29, JOHN 7:15, JOHN 13:1, John 16:30, JOHN 18:4, John 21:17, COLOSSIANS 2:3, APOC 2:23).
 
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The inspired apostle uses a similar argument, but switches the genders.

But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! (Rom. 5:15)

And again.

For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ! (Rom. 5:17)

And again.

For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. (Rom. 5:19)

Because unlike you, Paul looks to Christ rather than to fallen man for the redemption of mankind.
Very true! Eve was at least tricked--what was Adam's excuse?
 
1. Because to fully know the hearts of all means to be omniscient.
https://forums.carm.org/threads/the...hich-demonstrates-he-is-god.8978/#post-638601
Who says the saints know the hearts of all? What Catholic maintained that the saints know the hearts of all?

The saints merely hear the prayers of those who ask their aid and present the intentions before Christ. One does not need to know the hearts of all in order to pray for people. Saints cannot pray for people who do not ask them to do so, nor can saints read minds or see into the human heart. God alone can do that.
Thus, only God is the proper recipient of prayer.
https://forums.carm.org/threads/only-pray-to-god.7370/
Hence why the saints present requests before God just as any believer would.
2. And from a Roman Catholic website which affirms this knowledge means to be omniscient:

Christ Claimed to be Omniscient (All Knowing)

MATTHEW 9:4
And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, wherefore think ye evil in your hearts.

(Cf Also MATTHEW 22:18, MATTHEW 26:46, Mark 2:8, MARK 5:30, LUKE 22:10-13, JOHN 5:42, JOHN 6:64, JOHN 13:10-11, MATTHEW 12:25, MATTHEW 13:54, LUKE 2:47, Luke 6:8, Luke 9:47, John 2:24-25, JOHN 4:29, JOHN 7:15, JOHN 13:1, John 16:30, JOHN 18:4, John 21:17, COLOSSIANS 2:3, APOC 2:23).
I see nothing in that post that claims saints require the gift of omniscience in order to pray for people who ask them to pray for them.
 
There could be thousands of people all over the world praying to Mary at the same time. Remember?
Yes, I remember. And so what? Thousands of people is not an infinite number of people. One would only need to be omniscient if an infinite number of people were asking their prayers.
Being in heaven does not automatically give one the powers of God.
It sure doesn't! I didn't say we become omniscient in heaven, did I? I also never said being in heaven automatically gives one the powers of God, did I? I DID say that some of the limitations of the flesh do not exist in heaven, but I never said we become omniscient.
I am overthinking? Rather, you are underthinking all of this!
Yeah, no. You are overthinking this.
 
Yes, I remember. And so what? Thousands of people is not an infinite number of people. One would only need to be omniscient if an infinite number of people were asking their prayers.

It sure doesn't! I didn't say we become omniscient in heaven, did I? I also never said being in heaven automatically gives one the powers of God, did I? I DID say that some of the limitations of the flesh do not exist in heaven, but I never said we become omniscient.

Yeah, no. You are overthinking this.
I don't think they have a problem thinking that the devil can see what we do and tempt us. And he is just a creature as well.
 
See--this is a perfect example of overthinking things.

1) Why would hearing the prayers of people on earth require omniscience? There are a finite number of people praying at any given time.

2) The limitations of human flesh do not exist in heaven.
Really that is your response. How else does a person hear with prayers from all over the world? How do you know what human limitations will exist in heaven? Humans will still not be God.
 
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