Mother Mary

RayneBeau

Well-known member
Yeah--talk about straw-men.

Protestants threw out the Mass. Power abhors a vacuum. Since Protestants aren't celebrating Mass, but essentially just getting together for an extended Scripture study, which they call worship, teaching filled the void.

Put an other way:

The Mass is a combination of two things: Liturgy of the Word and Liturgy of the Eucharist. The Liturgy of the Word is the first part of the Mass. The reading of the Gospel is the culmination or high point in the Liturgy of the Word. The Liturgy of the Word takes about half the time of the Mass. Preaching takes place within the context of the Liturgy of the Word where the Scriptures are "broken open." The goal of a homily is not parsing Greek or Hebrew words, academic study, exegesis, etc, but to "break open the Word" that is---to apply the Scriptures to daily life. Catholics would see the academic study of the Scriptures as valuable, but more appropriate to a Scripture or Bible study course taught during the week in the evening.

The Liturgy of the Eucharist is the second part of the Mass. This culminates with reception of Communion. This takes the other half of the Mass. The Protestant Reformers threw out the Mass. Something had to fill the void. Thus, what a Protestant worship service actually is, from the Catholic vantage point, is just an extended Liturgy of the Word. This is why for Protestants preaching is primary.

Yes, the trustees are elected and these are the people in whom ultimate power rests. The minister answers to them. I have played the organ in Baptist churches, Presbyterian and Methodist churches. I have seen how the trustees abused the minister and their wife, and treated them like garbage--over the stupidest things too---like moving a table. I have seen ministers in tears over the trustees treatment of them. I used to wonder why the ministers put up with it. I know if it were me, there is no way the trustees would have gotten away with treating me or a spouse like that. They could take their church and their job and stick it. I used to joke with the ministers that they need to become Catholic.

Well, whatever. The point is that you have no concept of a Mass. Thus, worship for you is not the offering of a Sacrifice, but in essence, nothing more than a Scripture study with hymnody and prayers thrown in for good measure.

rompop tries to explain his whines by saying: "Protestants threw out the Mass. Power abhors a vacuum. Since Protestants aren't celebrating Mass, but essentially just getting together for an extended Scripture study, which they call worship, teaching filled the void."

The bottom line here is that discernment depends on a knowledge of Scripture. Those who are content to watch another play-by-play performance by Roman Catholic priests, and listen gullibly to some droning voice of human authority rather than hearing God's Word and letting it speak for itself is not, and cannot be discerning.

rompop again foolishly tries to explain his man-made faith by saying: "Put an other way:
The Mass is a combination of two things: Liturgy of the Word and Liturgy of the Eucharist. The Liturgy of the Word is the first part of the Mass. The reading of the Gospel is the culmination or high point in the Liturgy of the Word. The Liturgy of the Word takes about half the time of the Mass. Preaching takes place within the context of the Liturgy of the Word where the Scriptures are "broken open." The goal of a homily is not parsing Greek or Hebrew words, academic study, exegesis, etc, but to "break open the Word" that is---to apply the Scriptures to daily life. Catholics would see the academic study of the Scriptures as valuable, but more appropriate to a Scripture or Bible study course taught during the week in the evening."

Christ already identified the inward-looking extreme of that kind of heedless faith that rompop desires and defends, as mysticism. It could also be called just another variety of 'rote tradition'. And, that is precisely how God Himself perfectly characterized it best here with this teaching:

Isaiah 29:13;
"These people claim to worship Me,
but their words are meaningless,
and their hearts are somewhere else.
Their religion is nothing but human rules and traditions
which they have simply memorized.
So, I will startle them with one unexpected blow after another.

Those who are wise will turn out to be fools,
and all their cleverness will be useless."
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Yeah--talk about straw-men.

Protestants threw out the Mass. Power abhors a vacuum. Since Protestants aren't celebrating Mass, but essentially just getting together for an extended Scripture study, which they call worship, teaching filled the void.

We don't need the Catholic Mass. I cannot speak of other churches, but in my church, we do sing liturgy, follow a liturgical year, and do indeed celebrate the Lord's Supper on a regular basis. But our church services are not just bible studies. Our ministers are trained to preach sermons based upon the Scriptural readings for that Sunday, and to include Law and Gospel. I put down one example on here already, some weeks ago, entitled "Don't Jump!"

We do indeed study God's word in depth during Adult Bible class and/or midweek Bible studies. But God's word is still central to our worship services. It is everywhere in them--in singing the Liturgy, in the hymns, in the Scripture readings, in the Sermons.
Put an other way:

The Mass is a combination of two things: Liturgy of the Word and Liturgy of the Eucharist. The Liturgy of the Word is the first part of the Mass. The reading of the Gospel is the culmination or high point in the Liturgy of the Word. The Liturgy of the Word takes about half the time of the Mass. Preaching takes place within the context of the Liturgy of the Word where the Scriptures are "broken open." The goal of a homily is not parsing Greek or Hebrew words, academic study, exegesis, etc, but to "break open the Word" that is---to apply the Scriptures to daily life. Catholics would see the academic study of the Scriptures as valuable, but more appropriate to a Scripture or Bible study course taught during the week in the evening.

Well, the goal of our pastors' sermons is to preach both Law and Gospel--simply put, to show us our sins and the need for a Savior, then preach on how Jesus saves us from our sins unto eternal life.

But again, in depth studies of the Bible do occur more in Midweek Bible Studies or in Adult Bible class. The first Bible book my husband taught in the latter after ordination was the Epistles to the Philippians. The second was the epistle of James. Just an FYI, to show that not all Protestant churches are like the ones you described.
The Liturgy of the Eucharist is the second part of the Mass. This culminates with reception of Communion. This takes the other half of the Mass. The Protestant Reformers threw out the Mass. Something had to fill the void. Thus, what a Protestant worship service actually is, from the Catholic vantage point, is just an extended Liturgy of the Word. This is why for Protestants preaching is primary.

Yes, the trustees are elected and these are the people in whom ultimate power rests. The minister answers to them. I have played the organ in Baptist churches, Presbyterian and Methodist churches. I have seen how the trustees abused the minister and their wife, and treated them like garbage--over the stupidest things too---like moving a table. I have seen ministers in tears over the trustees treatment of them. I used to wonder why the ministers put up with it. I know if it were me, there is no way the trustees would have gotten away with treating me or a spouse like that. They could take their church and their job and stick it. I used to joke with the ministers that they need to become Catholic.

We don't have trustees in our church. We have elders and a church council that handles some of the day-to-day running of the church--making sure we have all the supplies we need; outreach; church property; Sunday School, etc. I have been on the church council, as head of the Sunday School department and also on the church property committee. I have never seen anyone mistreat a pastor in all my years as a Lutheran (since 1959) nor has anyone ever mistreated me or my husband in the 2 churches in which he was pastor. Instead, we were treated with great love and respect.

I am not trying to go off topic to my church on this forum, just explaining about my experiences.
Well, whatever. The point is that you have no concept of a Mass

I do. We just don't have the Roman Catholic Mass.
Thus, worship for you is not the offering of a Sacrifice,

Who says we MUST offer a Sacrifice to God??? The Bible does tell us to offer the "sacrifice of thanksgiving" and I assure you, we most definitely do that!

But as I have stated before on here, and so have others, Holy Communion is NOT A SACRIFICE, it is a SACRAMENT. Jesus died ONCE FOR ALL TIME. He sacrificed Himself ONCE, He purged our sins ONCE for ALL TIME, and now sits at the right hand of The Majesty on high! So, why do your priests--a position that is totally unnecessary in the new Covenant church--plead with God to accept the "sacrifice" of the bread and wine during Mass? Why do Catholics keep Jesus on the cross, always dying? He died ONCE for all time! He rose victorious from the grave and now lives forever to intercede for all the saints. He is alive!
but in essence, nothing more than a Scripture study with hymnody and prayers thrown in for good measure.
Sometimes it is. I have been to a few non-Lutheran churches. Two were Christ-centered, and 3 were...not. But that is for another forum.

I have a suggestion, Romish....why not save your next Sunday's church bulletin, and put down the order of service for us on here, the Scripture readings, the name of the hymns, the Liturgy that was sung (maybe we could find that online), and the message/focus of the homily, what it was about. I have been to a couple of Catholic church services and watched one or two online on EWTN. But I would be interested in seeing what your church does.
 
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dingoling.

Well-known member
The false claim and it is fact, is that the RCC is not His church and never has been. This is shown in its fruit over the centuries and its false teachings and claims and smelly fruit.
Do you reject Mary's title - the mother of God?

Those who deny Mary as being the mother of God are teaching a false doctrine.
 

A new day

Well-known member
Do you reject Mary's title - the mother of God?

Those who deny Mary as being the mother of God are teaching a false doctrine.

No one here denies, that God chose mary for a specific task. No one denies that mary was a virgin when Jesus was born. But it ends there. Jesus, Himself shot down the mere idea of anyone elevating mary to any special status and as soon as someone's mouth got opened, he redirected everyone's focus and attention on the sole worship of God only. Doing God's will. NOT the will of mary; But God !!!

What sounds ridiculous, and foolish; is the notion that God who has no beginning and no end, who but spoke the heavens and the earth and all of creation into existence from ex nihilo needs "a mommy to tell him what to do".

Doesn't matter if rc's use the words "venerate", "dulia", or "hyperdulia" or some other word that puts another person or object up on a pedestal to be adored. All is a form of giving God's glory to another, that He has already stated in Scripture that He will NOT share the glory due Him with another.

Since “worship” and “veneration” have the same meaning. Elevating mary with titles such as mediatrix, co-redemptrix, cause of our salvation, most holy mother of god, our Immaculate lady, and queen of heaven cannot help but foster mary worship. Singing hymns to mary, praying to her, kissing her picture, parading her image through the streets, and bowing down before her statue reflect a degree of reverence that certainly imitates idolatry and might as well be called mariolatry. All glory, honor, and praise belongs to God alone.

Isaiah 43:11
I, yes I, am the LORD, and there is no Savior but Me
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
Do you reject Mary's title - the mother of God?

Those who deny Mary as being the mother of God are teaching a false doctrine.
Define God
as in, "God is.........................................................."

If you say" Jesus is............."
then you are defining Jesus


As the claim is Mary - the mother of God
Then define God, not Jesus..

I already know: you won't do it
 

balshan

Well-known member
Define God
as in, "God is.........................................................."

If you say" Jesus is............."
then you are defining Jesus


As the claim is Mary - the mother of God
Then define God, not Jesus..

I already know: you won't do it
Well I have to say brilliant question. I mean this will show how far they will go to defend their off titles and assumptions.
 

romishpopishorganist

Well-known member
We don't need the Catholic Mass. I cannot speak of other churches, but in my church, we do sing liturgy, follow a liturgical year, and do indeed celebrate the Lord's Supper on a regular basis. But our church services are not just bible studies. Our ministers are trained to preach sermons based upon the Scriptural readings for that Sunday, and to include Law and Gospel. I put down one example on here already, some weeks ago, entitled "Don't Jump!"
Yes, I know. I used to go to Church with my grandmother. Though she was ELCA. Yes, I know--the ELCA is basically the Jesuits of Lutheranism: notoriously liberal and notoriously secular. So I get it isn't Lutheran like your Church is Lutheran---but----the Lutheran service does follow the pattern of the Catholic Mass. Lutherans just understand what they are doing--they understand the liturgical actions differently.
We do indeed study God's word in depth during Adult Bible class and/or midweek Bible studies. But God's word is still central to our worship services. It is everywhere in them--in singing the Liturgy, in the hymns, in the Scripture readings, in the Sermons.
I said you didn't have the Mass. I didn't say you didn't study God's Word.
Well, the goal of our pastors' sermons is to preach both Law and Gospel--simply put, to show us our sins and the need for a Savior, then preach on how Jesus saves us from our sins unto eternal life.
Admittivity--Pope Francis and some Catholics priests could take a lesson here. In much of Catholicism today---the Gospel has been turned in to activism and social justice rather than anything substantive. Salvation through social justice, rather than salvation through Christ.
But again, in depth studies of the Bible do occur more in Midweek Bible Studies or in Adult Bible class.
In many Catholics parishes there is adult education that takes place during the week. But I was talking only about the Mass.
We don't have trustees in our church. We have elders and a church council that handles some of the day-to-day running of the church--making sure we have all the supplies we need; outreach; church property; Sunday School, etc. I have been on the church council, as head of the Sunday School department and also on the church property committee. I have never seen anyone mistreat a pastor in all my years as a Lutheran (since 1959) nor has anyone ever mistreated me or my husband in the 2 churches in which he was pastor. Instead, we were treated with great love and respect.
Then you are lucky.
I do. We just don't have the Roman Catholic Mass.
No, you don't--and that was the substance of my point. No one does, save Catholics. Hence--why would I be anything but Catholic--notwithstanding the problems in the RCC? In other words--I may not like a liberal and secular pope or priest who thinks the Gospel of Jesus Christ is social justice activism, but it is still the Mass, and still the Body and Blood of Christ I receive.
Who says we MUST offer a Sacrifice to God???
That is how God's is most perfectly worshipped.
The Bible does tell us to offer the "sacrifice of thanksgiving" and I assure you, we most definitely do that!
What do you think the Mass IS if not THAT? A sacrifice of unthankfulness?
But as I have stated before on here, and so have others, Holy Communion is NOT A SACRIFICE, it is a SACRAMENT.
The Mass is the Sacrament of Calvary, Communion, a Sacrament of Christ. (Note in using the word "Sacrament" I simply mean "visible expression of an invisible reality." So I am not suggesting there are more than 7 Sacraments. The 7 Sacraments are liturgical rites that express our Faith.)
Jesus died ONCE FOR ALL TIME.
Correct. Jesus died once for all on the cross in his human flesh. He lives to die no more.
He sacrificed Himself ONCE,
Christ IS the sacrifice Bonnie. Not the use of the word "is." That is what it means to be God the Son. God the Son is always pouring himself out for the sake of God the Father, and--through redemption, our sake. We share in this. That is what redemption is--to share in the life of the Son.

Thus, there is no once, strictly speaking. It is just an eternal now.
He purged our sins ONCE for ALL TIME, and now sits at the right hand of The Majesty on high!
He DIED once for all time. He lives to make intercession for us, however. Now Christ pours himself out without suffering and dying--precisely because He is risen.
So, why do your priests--a position that is totally unnecessary in the new Covenant church--plead with God to accept the "sacrifice" of the bread and wine during Mass?
Because the Mass is a participation on the offering of Christ.
Why do Catholics keep Jesus on the cross, always dying? He died ONCE for all time! He rose victorious from the grave and now lives forever to intercede for all the saints. He is alive!
We don't keep Jesus on the cross always dying. The Mass is not just the cross. The Mass is the whole paschal event: death and resurrection--presented sacramentally.
I have a suggestion, Romish....why not save your next Sunday's church bulletin, and put down the order of service for us on here, the Scripture readings, the name of the hymns, the Liturgy that was sung (maybe we could find that online), and the message/focus of the homily, what it was about. I have been to a couple of Catholic church services and watched one or two online on EWTN. But I would be interested in seeing what your church does.
You can find any of that online.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Yes, I know. I used to go to Church with my grandmother. Though she was ELCA. Yes, I know--the ELCA is basically the Jesuits of Lutheranism: notoriously liberal and notoriously secular. So I get it isn't Lutheran like your Church is Lutheran---but----the Lutheran service does follow the pattern of the Catholic Mass. Lutherans just understand what they are doing--they understand the liturgical actions differently.

I said you didn't have the Mass. I didn't say you didn't study God's Word.

Admittivity--Pope Francis and some Catholics priests could take a lesson here. In much of Catholicism today---the Gospel has been turned in to activism and social justice rather than anything substantive. Salvation through social justice, rather than salvation through Christ.

In many Catholics parishes there is adult education that takes place during the week. But I was talking only about the Mass.

Then you are lucky.

No, we are blessed. I have heard of a few errant congregations in my church who have not been kind to their pastors, but they are rare.

I do know of one pastor who excommunicated members simply for disagreeing with him on some things. He nearly destroyed that church. He eventually took a calling to be a military chaplain. A friend of ours became this church's new pastor, and found out just how much damage he had done to it. A retired pastor's wife, whose husband was the interim minister for this church until our friend was ordained as its pastor, knew about this and told me this pastor was a very childish man. But it took a good year for the new young pastor to heal this church's wounds. He visited all of the members the pastor before him had excommunicated and reinstated them, if they wanted it.

So, once in awhile, the abuse comes from the pastor, not the parishioners. But again, this is rare.
No, you don't--and that was the substance of my point. No one does, save Catholics.

We don't need the Catholic Mass. No one does. Non the way the Catholic church defines it and does it. Nor do we need priests to do Holy Communion. We are all a royal priesthood to God, with Jesus Christ as our great High Priest.
Hence--why would I be anything but Catholic--notwithstanding the problems in the RCC? In other words--I may not like a liberal and secular pope or priest who thinks the Gospel of Jesus Christ is social justice activism, but it is still the Mass, and still the Body and Blood of Christ I receive.

As we receive in Holy Communion in the Lord's Supper.
That is how God's is most perfectly worshipped.

By believing the priest is offering a sacrifice to God and praying He would accept it?
What do you think the Mass IS if not THAT? A sacrifice of unthankfulness?

No, but it isn't the re-sacrifice of God's Son, either. But that must be what Catholics believe, since the priest always asks God to "accept" this sacrifice--the bread and wine.
The Mass is the Sacrament of Calvary, Communion, a Sacrament of Christ. (Note in using the word "Sacrament" I simply mean "visible expression of an invisible reality." So I am not suggesting there are more than 7 Sacraments. The 7 Sacraments are liturgical rites that express our Faith.)

That is not what Sacraments are. Your priests still ask God to accept the "sacrifice" of the Eucharist after he consecrates the bread and wine.
Correct. Jesus died once for all on the cross in his human flesh. He lives to die no more.

Then why do priests call the Eucharist a "sacrifice" and pray to God that He accepts that "sacrifice"? If He only died ONCE, as Hebrews 9:28 says?
Christ IS the sacrifice Bonnie. Note the use of the word "is."

That is YOUR word--is. He WAS sacrificed, once, as Hebrews 9:28 says. But the effects of that one perfect sacrifice are eternal.

  • So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
    Hebrews 9:28

That is what it means to be God the Son. God the Son is always pouring himself out for the sake of God the Father, and--through redemption, our sake. We share in this. That is what redemption is--to share in the life of the Son.

That is not what Redemption means. Redemption is being saved from the curse of the Law--eternal death in hell--by faith in the Son of God, who loves us and gave Himself as a ransom for our sins, so that we may have eternal life in heaven after we leave this world.

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree” Galatians 3:13.

Jesus bought us with the price of His Holy innocent suffering and death and His precious blood.


Thus, there is no once, strictly speaking. It is just an eternal now.

Yes, there is a "once" as Hebrews 9:28 says, but the forgiveness of sins through that one perfect Sacrifice is available all the time.
He DIED once for all time. He lives to make intercession for us, however. Now Christ pours himself out without suffering and dying--precisely because He is risen.

He does indeed pour Himself out for us by the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Because the Mass is a participation on the offering of Christ.

it is a participation in the body and blood of Jesus Christ shed for the forgiveness of sins as Paul says, in 1 Cor. 10.
We don't keep Jesus on the cross always dying. The Mass is not just the cross. The Mass is the whole paschal event: death and resurrection--presented sacramentally.

But your priests still pray to God to accept this "sacrifice" of the bread and wine, after consecration. So, is it an unbloody sacrifice, as I have seen written on here? But then, as others pointed out--IF the wine is no longer wine but entirely Jesus' blood, which the priest offers as a sacrifice, praying it is acceptable to God--how then could it be an unbloody sacrifice?
You can find any of that online.
Sure. Thanks for the explanation. I agree with some of it, but not all.

Now, back to the OP. :)
 
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dingoling.

Well-known member
Define God
as in, "God is.........................................................."

If you say" Jesus is............."
then you are defining Jesus


As the claim is Mary - the mother of God
Then define God, not Jesus..

I already know: you won't do it
- God is love.
- Jesus is the way, the truth and the life.
- Mary is the mother of Jesus. Mary is able throughout eternity to say that Jesus, the Son of God, is my son.
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
- God is love.
- Jesus is the way, the truth and the life.
- Mary is the mother of Jesus. Mary is able throughout eternity to say that Jesus, the Son of God, is my son.
are all these statements true?

God is three Divine Persons; the Father, the Son. and the Holy Spirit

Mary is not the mother of three Divine Persons; the Father, the Son. and the Holy Spirit
 

dingoling.

Well-known member
are all these statements true?

God is three Divine Persons; the Father, the Son. and the Holy Spirit

Mary is not the mother of three Divine Persons; the Father, the Son. and the Holy Spirit
- yes
- yes. Mary is the mother of Jesus. Jesus is the Son of God.
 
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