Mother Mary

[mica]

No, that is not true. Besides that it doesn't account for those nCCs who became Catholic. E.g. Dr Scott Hahn, Steve Ray...

you are assuming that they ever were Christians. If they'd experienced the rebirth then they wouldn't have become catholics.

 

[dingoling.]

It was a women whom Satan tempted that led to the fall of mankind, so it was appropriate that it was through a women that God used to redeem mankind and destroy the works of Satan. God used the most humblest of creatures to defeat the most proud.

God has given us Mary as our mother, and he has placed Mary in a position to help us in our battle against the spiritual forces of darkness. Thank God for giving us Mary as our mother.

Here is what God said to the serpent after Adam and Eve sinned:

Genesis 3:14-15, "The Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, cursed are you among all animals and among all wild creatures; upon your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life. I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will strike your head, and you will strike his heel.”

The questions I would ask is:

- who is the women
- why is the women even mentioned
-why is God putting enmity between the serpent and the women

 

[RayneBeau]

This forum is for discussing all things roman catholic, and speaking of salvation goes to the topic of mary. Why? because the rcc church teaches that the marian doctrines are associated with salvation and belief in them is required.



They most certainly do mean just that. There is no ifs, ands, or buts about it. It is in the words spoken as well as in the actions. Words and actions have meaning. True that we can not judge a person's heart, but we can discern and judge what is said and done by that person. And Scripture certainly tells us to use God's word as a measuring stick to determine when a person is a false teacher or prophet. The same about teachings, doctrines, and dogma's.



Whether those apparitions are real or not or whether they actually saw something is debatable; however, the real test is NOT in what is seen or physically felt, or our feelings; but the words that are spoken by whatever these people think they have seen and heard from. We test what is said, by what God's word as a whole says about x,y, and z. Not just one stand alone verse here or there.

Seeing an angel or some other apparition or even a wonderful and grand miracle is NOT proof that what a person is seeing and/or hearing is from God. Scripture teaches, that satan is very knowledgeable about what Scripture says, and is a master of disguise and deception.

Satan quoted Scripture to Jesus when it suited satan's purposes. Even though what satan quoted was Scripture and true, Jesus was NOT fooled by the verses satan quoted for what satan quoted, went against Scripture as a whole, that says.... “worship God only”

When a person is seeking to experience God by sight, and feelings rather than by faith and trust in Him. Satan will certainly take advantage and oblige the person with what they desire. Satan is very well versed and acquainted with human nature.

No messenger from God would ever tell people to worship any human or an angel, other than God, Himself. For Scripture says over and over and over to “worship God only” God will NEVER lead us to do something that contradicts His character and nature. Nor will He lead us to do what is contrary to His written word. People whose faith and trust is grounded in Christ, and sensitive to the Holy Spirit's leading, will be quite uncomfortable with what is said and done in the rcc.

This "mysticism" faith in the apparitions of Roman Catholic Mary, held by some sects in the Roman Catholic Church is merely an illusion. It's "truth that is true for me" and is irrelevant to anyone else, because it lacks any objective basis. Ultimately, therefore, existential faith is impotent to lift any one above the level of despair. All it can do is seek more apparitions, experiences, and more feelings. Multitudes of Roman Catholics are trapped in the desperate cycle of feeding off one "Marian" experience while zealously seeking the next. Such people have no real concept of truth; they just believe what they believe. Here again is another example of the foolhardy faith of Roman Catholicism.

 

[pilgrim]

This "mysticism" faith in the apparitions of Roman Catholic Mary, held by some sects in the Roman Catholic Church is merely an illusion. It's "truth that is true for me" and is irrelevant to anyone else, because it lacks any objective basis. Ultimately, therefore, existential faith is impotent to lift any one above the level of despair. All it can do is seek more apparitions, experiences, and more feelings. Multitudes of Roman Catholics are trapped in the desperate cycle of feeding off one "Marian" experience while zealously seeking the next. Such people have no real concept of truth; they just believe what they believe. Here again is another example of the foolhardy faith of Roman Catholicism.

The Church has studied many of these apparitions. Some have been declared authentic and others dismissed.
That is "testing the spirits" by the Church.

 

[Bonnie]

The Church has studied many of these apparitions. Some have been declared authentic and others dismissed.
That is "testing the spirits" by the Church.

But it "tested the spirits" through its Catholic, Marian lenses. Non RCCers on here would have no problem seeing these apparitions for what they truly are--from the devil, disguising these apparitions as "angels of light."

And "testing the spirits" doesn't just mean testing apparitions, but the "spirits" behind all teachings--whether or not they are from God or the spirit of error.

 

[dingoling.]

But it "tested the spirits" through its Catholic, Marian lenses. Non RCCers on here would have no problem seeing these apparitions for what they truly are--from the devil, disguising these apparitions as "angels of light."

And "testing the spirits" doesn't just mean testing apparitions, but the "spirits" behind all teachings--whether or not they are from God or the spirit of error.

And if we test the spirit we find that the Catholic church's teachings are correct.

 

[organgrinder]

And if we test the spirit we find that the Catholic church's teachings are correct.

So you claim. How do you test the spirits to find what you have been taught is correct?

 

[dingoling.]

So you claim. How do you test the spirits to find what you have been taught is correct?

There is only one body and the power of darkness will not prevail against it. The Catholic church is the only church that has a history dating back to Jesus. All other Christian churches come out of the Catholic church. All we have to do is to connect the dots.

 

[organgrinder]

There is only one body and the power of darkness will not prevail against it. The Catholic church is the only church that has a history dating back to Jesus. All other Christian churches come out of the Catholic church. All we have to do is to connect the dots.

You stated a position but did not answer the question which was "how do you test the spirits"? My assumption is you have no clue.

 

[Bonnie]

And if we test the spirit we find that the Catholic church's teachings are correct.

This would be funny if it were not so sad. I would be willing to bet you test the Catholic church's teachings by what the Catholic church has taught about them. NOT by whether or not they can be found in the Bible.

Where are indulgences taught in the Bible? Where are the 4 Marian dogmas taught as doctrine in the Bible? Where are popes taught in the bible, that one must obey, in order to be saved? Where is celibate clergy taught, in the Bible? Where is praying to saints dead in the Lord to intercede for us with Jesus taught in the Bible? Where are human traditions made equal to Scripture taught in the Bible?

The best way to "test the spirits" is to see if those "spirits" jive with what the Bible says. If a doctrine cannot be found taught in the Bible, even obliquely, then it is not from God and is from the spirit of error. Period.

 

[Bonnie]

There is only one body and the power of darkness will not prevail against it.

Not against the TRUE church, no, it will not.

The Catholic church is the only church that has a history dating back to Jesus.

This is false. You are simply regurgitating what your church has indoctrinated you to believe. The RCC doesn't go back anywhere near to Jesus' time!

All other Christian churches come out of the Catholic church.

The more orthodox ones come out of the Bible.

All we have to do is to connect the dots.

And we can see that the RCC left the true church centuries ago, due to teaching so much error and refusing correction about it.

 

[RayneBeau]

The Church has studied many of these apparitions. Some have been declared authentic and others dismissed.
That is "testing the spirits" by the Church.

In the RCC "testing the spirits" really means 'will this "apparition" bring in a HUGE amount of revenue for the Roman Catholic Church. They consider how many Roman Catholics and/ or mystics will identify with this apparition, and how many will criticize it and reject it. Another of the RCC's concerns in what they deceivingly project as "testing the spirits" is will this "apparition" present it's own positive or negative challenge to the thinking of unbelievers. The bottom line and only line taken by the Roman Catholic Church is $$$ and more $$$. How much will the advertising of this apparition alone cost the RCC? What kind of feature story will they come up with to promote this apparition - whatever they will come up with will undeniably be whatever sells the most at that time. They consider if they should break in to the international news either now or in the future - or if the exciting 'news' about this apparition is not done with "all the right stuff" by the media, then the story and the apparition site, are going to fade- it is a heart-grabbing fear of the RCC's spin doctors. This very small sampling of what goes on behind Vatican doors, should be enough for Roman Catholics questioning the real truth behind how the RCC "tests the spirits."

 

[Arch Stanton]

And we can see that the RCC left the true church centuries ago,

show us

 

[dingoling.]

This would be funny if it were not so sad. I would be willing to bet you test the Catholic church's teachings by what the Catholic church has taught about them. NOT by whether or not they can be found in the Bible.

Where are indulgences taught in the Bible? Where are the 4 Marian dogmas taught as doctrine in the Bible? Where are popes taught in the bible, that one must obey, in order to be saved? Where is celibate clergy taught, in the Bible? Where is praying to saints dead in the Lord to intercede for us with Jesus taught in the Bible? Where are human traditions made equal to Scripture taught in the Bible?

Some of the teachings are not found explicitly in scripture, but can be discerned from scripture.

The best way to "test the spirits" is to see if those "spirits" jive with what the Bible says. If a doctrine cannot be found taught in the Bible, even obliquely, then it is not from God and is from the spirit of error. Period.

So let's "test the spirits" then. Where does scripture say that "if a doctrine cannot be found taught in the Bible, even obliquely, then it is not from God and it is a spirit of error. Period."

 

[Bonnie]

Some of the teachings are not found explicitly in scripture, but can be discerned from scripture.

Only if implied, such as the Triune Godhead. But there is nothing in Scripture even remotely implied about those Catholic teachings I mentioned.

So let's "test the spirits" then. Where does scripture say that "if a doctrine cannot be found taught in the Bible, even obliquely, then it is not from God and it is a spirit of error. Period."

Yes, lets:

NASB:

Followers of Tradition​

7 The Pharisees and some of the scribes gathered around Him when they had come from Jerusalem, 2 and had seen that some of His disciples were eating their bread with impure hands, that is, unwashed. 3 (For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they carefully wash their hands, thus observing the traditions of the elders; 4 and when they come from the market place, they do not eat unless they cleanse themselves; and there are many other things which they have received in order to observe, such as the washing of cups and pitchers and copper pots.)

5 The Pharisees and the scribes *asked Him, “Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with impure hands?” 6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:

‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’

8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”

9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.
10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

What can we infer from this passage about what Jesus thinks about teaching human traditions as doctrines? Even thought is it not explicitly spelled out? Is He pleased or displeased?

 

[dingoling.]

Only if implied, such as the Triune Godhead. But there is nothing in Scripture even remotely implied about those Catholic teachings I mentioned.

Yes, lets:

NASB:



What can we infer from this passage about what Jesus thinks about teaching human traditions as doctrines? Is He pleased or displeased?

With those particular traditions Jesus wasn't pleased. But there is more to scripture than just that passage where Jesus doesn't condemn tradition. E.g. Jesus ate the Passover meal with his disciples that was according to the tradition at the time and not according to scripture.I

Paul also tells about hidden mysteries that were revealed to us by the Holy Spirit.

So your rule fails the test of the spirit.

 

[Bonnie]

With those particular traditions Jesus wasn't pleased. But there is more to scripture than just that passage where Jesus doesn't condemn tradition. E.g. Jesus ate the Passover meal with his disciples that was according to the tradition at the time and not according to scripture.I

So? But Jesus quoted Isaiah, where God said through him that "in vain do they worship Me, teaching for doctrine the commandments of men." The men of the OT had added many man-made rules and doctrines to what God had already said, making them equal to or greater in authority than God's actual holy word.

Paul also tells about hidden mysteries that were revealed to us by the Holy Spirit.

Try reading those in context and get back to me. Paul was NOT giving carte blanche to your church to add many man-made teachings to the church and making them doctrines.

19 Bible verses about God Revealing Mysteries

A topical Bible which shows the most relevant Bible verse for each topic

bible.knowing-jesus.com

In the Bible, a mystery is something that has not yet been made fully revealed. This "mystery" in the NT is Jesus Christ and the Gospel message, but they were revealed--weren't they?

So your rule fails the test of the spirit.

It only fails your church's test since you will see what I wrote only through Catholic eyes and not through the eyes of one born again in the spirit. But it does NOT fail GOD'S test at all!

 

[Buzzard]

Some of the teachings are not found explicitly in scripture, but can be discerned from scripture.


So let's "test the spirits" then. Where does scripture say that "if a doctrine cannot be found taught in the Bible, even obliquely, then it is not from God and it is a spirit of error. Period."

Where does scripture say that "if a doctrine cannot be found taught in the Bible
==================

Isaiah 8:16
16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.
.......
19 And when they shall say unto you,
Seek unto them that have familiar spirits,
and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter:

they truly are--from the devil, disguising these apparitions as "angels of light."​

​

should not a people seek unto their God?
for the living to the dead?

20 To the law and to the testimony:
if they speak not according to this word,
it is because there is no light in them.

 

[pilgrim]

This would be funny if it were not so sad. I would be willing to bet you test the Catholic church's teachings by what the Catholic church has taught about them. NOT by whether or not they can be found in the Bible.

Where are indulgences taught in the Bible? Where are the 4 Marian dogmas taught as doctrine in the Bible? Where are popes taught in the bible, that one must obey, in order to be saved? Where is celibate clergy taught, in the Bible? Where is praying to saints dead in the Lord to intercede for us with Jesus taught in the Bible? Where are human traditions made equal to Scripture taught in the Bible?

The best way to "test the spirits" is to see if those "spirits" jive with what the Bible says. If a doctrine cannot be found taught in the Bible, even obliquely, then it is not from God and is from the spirit of error. Period.

It is the Church's role to teach, given by Jesus Himself just before He ascended to heaven.

 

[4Him]

Your interpretation of scripture is incorrect.

Prove it.