Moved from SEP board--about Martin Luther

BJ Bear

Well-known member
My 2 cents: there are basic hermeneutical problems typical of those who cite this text to summarize the entire Luther.

1. "Sin boldly" comes from a fragment of a letter. It has no address, salutation, or signature. It is not a complete context.

2. "Sin boldly" comes from a letter. It was not intended to be a definitive theological paradigm expressing Luther's full theology, but rather written to a lone individual.

3. Luther was prone to strong hyperbole. It's his style, "sin boldly" is a perfect example. Luther doesn't write analytical theology. He writes profound verbose sentiment driving one to think deeply.

4. Luther had books and sermons intended for a general audience which explains how he parsed out the relationship of faith and works. These books and sermons are not fragments.

Those who cite "sin boldly" typically have little understanding of Luther's theology. These are the type of people that need to be kept out of the jury pool because they're either lazy thinkers, they lack the ability to think critically, or they simply demonize that which they don't like. These are the sort of people who would send innocent people to jail.

JS
I also came across a link to a book you may have referred to in the past, W. H. T. Dau's Luther Examined And Re-examined.

So far I've only read the first twenty or so pages and it is an interesting and informative read. It turns out the poster who cranked out the anti Luther stuff for years on the board was just following RC tradition.

I could almost hear Lady Misil saying to me, "So young [in the fath], so naive [about historical Luther hatred]..." Of course, that would be If she were a Christian, still alive, and not saying some writer's lines. 😊
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
I'm not familiar with the SDA and probably not familiar with every group you may class under, "Reformation denominations," but I am familiar with Scripture and the Evangelical Church, commonly additionally called Lutheran in the U.S.

We are baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit into Christ so the expression, "the necessity of the baptism of Holy Spirit to be born again," is at this time at best superfluous.

SDA is Seventh-day Adventist, the denomination I was raised in, but left at 23 when my eyes were opened and saw grace for the first time in an all night debate with a friend. My mind has stayed open ever since, and have even grown from the misinterpretation of the grace taught me at that time, to what I believe the apostles meant.

I'm not sure about your belief that "at this time at best superfluous," and what you actually mean by that. I'll just say, it has nothing to do with water baptism. In fact baptism with water usually comes after being baptized with fire. You don't bury someone who is still alive.

Sure, that is part of what is accomplished in Holy Baptism and Holy Communion through faith.

It happens at true repentance when Christ baptizes us with fire and Romans 8:9 becomes true.

Jesus is our sanctification. Imperatives to those in whom the renewal has begun indicate volition and knowledge.

"Renewal has begun," in what way does that have to do with sin?

Ultimately it will be faith in Christ but that won't exclude the faith of Christ. Someone could write a book solely on the use and meaning of genitives in Scripture.
Yes, you must have first faith in Christ to even begin to abide in Him and He in you to have the faith of Christ. His power.

Since you didn't provide evidence for your view from either passage or the immediate context of each it is clear that there isn't any.

If I look at the immediate context of Romans 8:9 I don't see the basis of your question. The not yet complete renewal in this life is indicated in the next verses. "And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness...," Romans 8:10ff -NKJV. If the renewal was complete in this life then the body would not be dead because of sin, etc.

The way I see verse 10 is that it was written so we would not get verse 9 confused by verse 10. They are apples and oranges, but both fruit - related.

Verse 9 is about our born again nature (inner spirit and soul) that is changed in this life from our old nature, otherwise our bodies, our shell, wouldn't be changed after resurrection from the dead. But we MUST be born again first - verse 9, and stay in the Spirit. So the answer is a true Christian does not go in and out of the Spirit, we must abide in Him and endure to the end.

Sure, you've just acknowledged that the renewal in this life is incomplete because when we see Jesus face to face it isn't He that will have changed but the Christians.
What we have in this life is exactly like Christ's life on earth. He was sinless and made it possible for us to be sinless also by taking away the sin nature, thus taking away our sin. He acted in a manner of mature fruit, and that is the part that we evolve into during this life as we mature in the Lord. Jesus was the firstborn of many brethren. In other words, twins. This belief is hard for some to grasp having been told the complete opposite so often in the past, the truth has lost its meaning for them to comprehend that it IS in this lifetime, not just the next, except for the perfect bodies we will be given then, but only for those who are already righteous and holy. Revelation 22:11.
 
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Tertiumquid

Active member
I also came across a link to a book you may have referred to in the past, W. H. T. Dau's Luther Examined And Re-examined.

So far I've only read the first twenty or so pages and it is an interesting and informative read. It turns out the poster who cranked out the anti Luther stuff for years on the board was just following RC tradition.

I could almost hear Lady Misil saying to me, "So young [in the fath], so naive [about historical Luther hatred]..." Of course, that would be If she were a Christian, still alive, and not saying some writer's lines. 😊
...So grateful the Dau book is now available online. I'm embarrassed to say how much I paid for it many years ago now (and the copy is in poor shape). I remember when I read it thinking, "these Luther assaults' have been refuted for a long time!"

If I recall, there are a few books now of his available online in regard to Luther studies, good stuff.
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
SDA is Seventh-day Adventist, the denomination I was raised in, but left at 23 when my eyes were opened and saw grace for the first time in an all night debate with a friend. My mind has stayed open ever since, and have even grown from the misinterpretation of the grace taught me at that time, to what I believe the apostles meant.
Thank you. Based just on their name and dietary restrictions alone a right understanding of the grace of God in Christ Jesus would indeed be powerful.
I'm not sure about your belief that "at this time at best superfluous," and what you actually mean by that. I'll just say, it has nothing to do with water baptism. In fact baptism with water usually comes after being baptized with fire. You don't bury someone who is still alive.
To say it has nothing to do with the one baptism is false for the reasons previously stated in a prior post.
It happens at true repentance when Christ baptizes us with fire and Romans 8:9 becomes true.
Without a reference I'm left to guess the basis of your claim regarding, "Christ baptizes us with fire." If it is the parallel passages in Matthew 3 and Luke 3 then that is a misunderstanding.

John is explaining to the people gathered why he is not the Christ. In proclaiming Christ he tells them what He will do that an ordinary man such as John cannot do. According to the immediate context the baptism with the Holy Spirit and with fire refers to different events, the separation of the wheat from the chaff and the chaff and straw being burnt with unquenchable fire.

The connection between those parallel passages in Matt and Luke with Romans 8:9 is not the judgement accomplished on the last day.
"Renewal has begun," in what way does that have to do with sin?
It is just a shorthand way of affirming the scriptural witness that the renewal of the Holy Spirit has begun but it is not complete in this life as evidenced by the sins of the faithful in 1 John 1:8-9, the content of the Lord's prayer regarding sin, and the rest of Scripture in that regard.
Yes, you must have first faith in Christ to even begin to abide in Him and He in you to have the faith of Christ. His power.
A reference or two that prompts your interpretation would be helpful and some more details of what you are trying to say since I am not sure of what that is.
The way I see verse 10 is that it was written so we would not get verse 9 confused by verse 10. They are apples and oranges, but both fruit - related.
I don't really see what is in the text which prompts that idea so do you mind posting which is your preferred translation? Maybe the translation you are using gives that impression.
Verse 9 is about our born again nature (inner spirit and soul) that is changed in this life from our old nature, otherwise our bodies, our shell, wouldn't be changed after resurrection from the dead. But we MUST be born again first - verse 9, and stay in the Spirit. So the answer is a true Christian does not go in and out of the Spirit, we must abide in Him and endure to the end.
The subject in verse nine is ye, yens, or y'all rather than an, "inner spirit and soul." This is consistent with being justified by faith or through faith, that is, we are reckoned righteous on account of the person and work of Christ for us. It is just as Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, "And may the God of peace fully sanctify you, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful, who will perform it." - LITV

God justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5.
What we have in this life is exactly like Christ's life on earth.
No, He was sinless in and of Himself in this life. We are only reckoned sinless through faith in Him. See above for some examples of why this is so.
He was sinless and made it possible for us to be sinless also by taking away the sin nature, thus taking away our sin.
He does indeed take away the sins of the world, but the faithful don't experience it in full until the resurrection.
He acted in a manner of mature fruit, and that is the part that we evolve into during this life as we mature in the Lord.
"If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sons." 1 John 1:8-9
Jesus was the firstborn of many brethren. In other words, twins.
Siblings yes, twins no.
This belief is hard for some to grasp having been told the complete opposite so often in the past, the truth has lost its meaning for them to comprehend that it IS in this lifetime, not just the next, except for the perfect bodies we will be given then, but only for those who are already righteous and holy. Revelation 22:11.
Your interpretation does not accurately reflect Scripture according to the God given perfect immediate context, see above.

Regarding Revelation 22:11, "he who is unrighteous -- let him be unrighteous still, and he who is filthy -- let him be filthy still, and he who is righteous -- let him be declared righteous still, and he who is sanctified -- let him be sanctified still:" -YLT

The theology of the translator really comes out in that passage. The YLT, if it were more consistent would reflect my understanding. That is, if it maintained a distinction between the active particples associated with the first two verbs, for example, "the one acting unjustly (participle), let him still act unjustly (verb)," and the two adjectives associated with the second two verbs, for example, "the righteous (adjective), let him be declared righteous (verb) still." And of course, if it was consistent in it's translation of the last two verbs, that is, be declared righteousl and be declared holy.
 
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CharismaticLady

Well-known member
Without a reference I'm left to guess the basis of your claim regarding, "Christ baptizes us with fire." If it is the parallel passages in Matthew 3 and Luke 3 then that is a misunderstanding.

John is explaining to the people gathered why he is not the Christ. In proclaiming Christ he tells them what He will do that an ordinary man such as John cannot do. According to the immediate context the baptism with the Holy Spirit and with fire refers to different events, the separation of the wheat from the chaff and the chaff and straw being burnt with unquenchable fire.

The connection between those parallel passages in Matt and Luke with Romans 8:9 is not the judgement accomplished on the last day.

Not talking about judgment, but the cleansing and destruction of the old carnal nature, and the creation of a new nature that does not willfully commit sins of lawlessness as the old nature did. We must be born again of the Holy Spirit. Romans 8:9

It is just a shorthand way of affirming the scriptural witness that the renewal of the Holy Spirit has begun but it is not complete in this life as evidenced by the sins of the faithful in 1 John 1:8-9, the content of the Lord's prayer regarding sin, and the rest of Scripture in that regard.

1 John 1:8-9 is a unsaved sinner (8), becoming a Christian (9). It is a sister verse to Acts 2:38 of receiving the Holy Spirit and 1 John 3:5-9.

Verse 8 is one of the most misinterpreted verses in scripture by millions. And verse 9 is not a repetition of sin, repent, sin, repent, sin, repent. When you are cleansed of ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, that means your nature is changed and you are born again. You become born again once, and now partake of the divine nature of God by His divine power. 2 Peter 1:2-4

Siblings yes, twins no.
I didn't want to say "clones." But we are the same as Jesus with the mind of Christ. Many believe that ONLY Jesus could be sinless. That is not true and what this verse means. When born again we also have the seed of the Father. Romans 8:9, and cannot sin, just like Jesus. We can also do the same and even greater miracles and cast out demons that He did. Mark 16:16-18; John 14:12
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
Not talking about judgment, but the cleansing and destruction of the old carnal nature, and the creation of a new nature that does not willfully commit sins of lawlessness as the old nature did. We must be born again of the Holy Spirit. Romans 8:9
I haven't been able to find the commentary you recommended in the other thread online in a PDF format so the basis of your interpretation of Romans 8:9 is still a bit of a mystery.

"But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness." Romans 8:9-10 - NKJV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+8&version=NKJV

The way I am reading Romans 8 :9 is that there is no substantive difference between, "the Spirit of God," and, "the Spirit of Christ," since the former is set in a positive statement and the latter in a negative statement but both are indicators of whether one is or is not His.

So my questions are do you understand there to be a substantive difference between, "the Spirit of God," and, "the Spirit of Christ," in verse 9? And if you do then on what basis in the text are they substantively different? Also, if they are substantively different then how can the one without the Spirit of Christ be not His?

That leads to verse 8:10, if Christ is in you the body is dead because of sin but the Spirit is life because of justification. This statement is a twofold indicator, the first is that the renewal of the Christian won't be complete in this life, otherwise, the body would not be dead because of sin. The renewal of the body will occur on the last day. The second indication is again that the Spirit of Christ is substantively the same as the Spirit of God because it refers to the one Spirit.
1 John 1:8-9 is a unsaved sinner (8), becoming a Christian (9). It is a sister verse to Acts 2:38 of receiving the Holy Spirit and 1 John 3:5-9.
I don't see any indication in 1 John 1 that he is writing to or of unsaved sinners. Where in the text of 1 John 1 do you find an indication that he is writing to or of unsaved sinners? If there is no indication of that then it is not, "a sister verse to Acts 2:38 and 1 John 3:5-9," as you currently understand all of those verses.
Verse 8 is one of the most misinterpreted verses in scripture by millions. And verse 9 is not a repetition of sin, repent, sin, repent, sin, repent. When you are cleansed of ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, that means your nature is changed and you are born again. You become born again once, and now partake of the divine nature of God by His divine power. 2 Peter 1:2-4
John writes confess rather than repent because the Christian acknowledges his sin and sins rather than has a change of mind regarding sin and sins. In other words, although the Christian has sin and sins he or she doesn't think of them as right or good that he should now have a change of mind, repent, about them.
I didn't want to say "clones." But we are the same as Jesus with the mind of Christ. Many believe that ONLY Jesus could be sinless. That is not true and what this verse means. When born again we also have the seed of the Father. Romans 8:9, and cannot sin, just like Jesus. We can also do the same and even greater miracles and cast out demons that He did. Mark 16:16-18; John 14:12
Jesus is the only one who is sinless by nature. Christians are only reckoned righteous, without sin, by grace through faith in Him until the last day when the renewal will be completed. Having the Spirit dwell in you and having the seed of God in you are continuing actions on the part of God rather than an indication that the renewal is complete in this life, for example, see Romans 8:9-10.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
I haven't been able to find the commentary you recommended in the other thread online in a PDF format so the basis of your interpretation of Romans 8:9 is still a bit of a mystery.

It appears the first edition is 1929, and the last printing was 1979. I've bought about 10 of used ones on ebay to give away to pastors if I notice they are preaching doctrines of demons. I've got enough for a while if you want to get the next cheap one. I always look for "free shipping" too.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
"But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness." Romans 8:9-10 - NKJV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+8&version=NKJV

The way I am reading Romans 8 :9 is that there is no substantive difference between, "the Spirit of God," and, "the Spirit of Christ," since the former is set in a positive statement and the latter in a negative statement but both are indicators of whether one is or is not His.

So my questions are do you understand there to be a substantive difference between, "the Spirit of God," and, "the Spirit of Christ," in verse 9? And if you do then on what basis in the text are they substantively different? Also, if they are substantively different then how can the one without the Spirit of Christ be not His?

That leads to verse 8:10, if Christ is in you the body is dead because of sin but the Spirit is life because of justification. This statement is a twofold indicator, the first is that the renewal of the Christian won't be complete in this life, otherwise, the body would not be dead because of sin. The renewal of the body will occur on the last day. The second indication is again that the Spirit of Christ is substantively the same as the Spirit of God because it refers to the one Spirit.

Romans 8:9 is the same God 3 times as in the Trinity is One. That is not the verse I am speaking of at all. I'm saying Galatians 5:17 and Romans 7:25 are sister verses and the same human mind/spirit. Our human unregenerated spirit is not the Holy Spirit as they seem to claim. The Abingdon agrees with me and does not capitalize the "s."

I don't see any indication in 1 John 1 that he is writing to or of unsaved sinners. Where in the text of 1 John 1 do you find an indication that he is writing to or of unsaved sinners? If there is no indication of that then it is not, "a sister verse to Acts 2:38 and 1 John 3:5-9," as you currently understand all of those verses.

He is writing to saved Christians ABOUT the Gnostics in 1 John 4:1-3. The Abingdom agrees with me.
1 John 1:9 makes us a Christian. We are completely cleansed of all past sin and we are also given a new nature and the Holy Spirit to be dead to sin, so there is no need to have to use 1 John 1:9 again to become a Christian.

John writes confess rather than repent because the Christian acknowledges his sin and sins rather than has a change of mind regarding sin and sins. In other words, although the Christian has sin and sins he or she doesn't think of them as right or good that he should now have a change of mind, repent, about them.

You are talking about one sin, but 1 John 1:9 cleanses us from ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. That is Jesus taking away the source of sin - the carnal nature. Now you have a choice and are no longer a slave to sin, so as John says in 1 John 2:1, I'm saying this so you will not sin. So it is possible. But 1 John 5:16-17 shows there are two types of sin. Sins unto death and sins not unto death. We need to see how God looks at the two types of sin and I found that in Numbers 15:22-29 (sins not unto death that also Jesus is our Advocate), and 30-36; Hebrews 10:26-31 (sins unto death - no sacrifice).

Jesus is the only one who is sinless by nature. Christians are only reckoned righteous, without sin, by grace through faith in Him until the last day when the renewal will be completed. Having the Spirit dwell in you and having the seed of God in you are continuing actions on the part of God rather than an indication that the renewal is complete in this life, for example, see Romans 8:9-10.

By nature? Do you know what in us is born again? It is our nature, our mind and heart, not our body that must still die to be born again immortal. With the new nature we partake of the same divine nature as Christ, and he has given us the mind of Christ. What is closer to being like Christ than that? This is NOW in this life and is sanctification is complete at JUSTIFICATION. That is the beginning when the Spirit of Christ enters us with his fruit of the Spirit. The only sins we will commit after truly being born again are unintentional trespasses due to the maturing process of fruit, and Christ's pruning. John 15. This process of maturing in the fruit of the Spirit is glorification, and the steps are 2 Peter 1:5-7. Notice verses 8-11, and 2-4.
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
It appears the first edition is 1929, and the last printing was 1979. I've bought about 10 of used ones on ebay to give away to pastors if I notice they are preaching doctrines of demons. I've got enough for a while if you want to get the next cheap one. I always look for "free shipping" too.
Thank you, but no since I only keep a limited physical library. I don't know if it is true or not, but some site claimed it was a Methodist commentary so I found some of those online. One of them was done by a person named Godby. He did the NT based on his own idiosyncratic translation.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
Thank you, but no since I only keep a limited physical library. I don't know if it is true or not, but some site claimed it was a Methodist commentary so I found some of those online. One of them was done by a person named Godby. He did the NT based on his own idiosyncratic translation.

This is by Eiselen, Lewis and Downey. It is a one volume commentary. Frankly, I can box up all my other commentaries and recover a lot of room.

www.ebay.com/itm/284471213999?hash=item423bce3faf:g:7csAAOSwwmBhVN82
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
Romans 8:9 is the same God 3 times as in the Trinity is One. That is not the verse I am speaking of at all. I'm saying Galatians 5:17 and Romans 7:25 are sister verses and the same human mind/spirit. Our human unregenerated spirit is not the Holy Spirit as they seem to claim. The Abingdon agrees with me and does not capitalize the "s."

The Abingdon has been soundly refuted more than once.


He is writing to saved Christians ABOUT the Gnostics in 1 John 4:1-3. The Abingdom agrees with me.
1 John 1:9 makes us a Christian. We are completely cleansed of all past sin and we are also given a new nature and the Holy Spirit to be dead to sin, so there is no need to have to use 1 John 1:9 again to become a Christian.

Once again The Abingdom doesn't tell the truth.


Here is the entire chapter 1 of 1 John 1.

1 John 1
New American Standard Bible 1995
1 What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life— 2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us— 3 what
we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ. 4 These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete.

5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we conf9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

Why didn't you comment on verse 3, where John says that context audience could have fellowship with them? BECAUSE, he is not preaching to BELIEVERS.


You are talking about one sin, but 1 John 1:9 cleanses us from ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. That is Jesus taking away the source of sin - the carnal nature. Now you have a choice and are no longer a slave to sin, so as John says in 1 John 2:1, I'm saying this so you will not sin. So it is possible. But 1 John 5:16-17 shows there are two types of sin. Sins unto death and sins not unto death. We need to see how God looks at the two types of sin and I found that in Numbers 15:22-29 (sins not unto death that also Jesus is our Advocate), and 30-36; Hebrews 10:26-31 (sins unto death - no sacrifice).

It Looks like you didn't comment on verse 8, because it destroys your sinless perfection heresy.

Here it is again.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

By nature? Do you know what in us is born again? It is our nature, our mind and heart, not our body that must still die to be born again immortal. With the new nature we partake of the same divine nature as Christ, and he has given us the mind of Christ. What is closer to being like Christ than that? This is NOW in this life and is sanctification is complete at JUSTIFICATION. That is the beginning when the Spirit of Christ enters us with his fruit of the Spirit. The only sins we will commit after truly being born again are unintentional trespasses due to the maturing process of fruit, and Christ's pruning. John 15. This process of maturing in the fruit of the Spirit is glorification, and the steps are 2 Peter 1:5-7. Notice verses 8-11, and 2-4.

Once again you leave out the context.

2 Peter 1:1-8
New American Standard Bible 1995
1 [a]Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have received a faith of the same
kind as ours, [c]by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: 2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; 3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us [d]by His own glory and [e]excellence. 4 [f]For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust. 5 Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral [g]excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, 6 and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, 7 and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul says the same thing, but he admits in Romans 7 that he still sins. I don't think you like that part.

Romans 7:7-25


7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except [e]through the Law; for I would not have known about [f]coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not [g]covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me [h]coveting of every kind; for apart [i]from the Law sin is dead. 9 I was once alive apart [j]from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; 10 and this commandment, which was [k]to result in life, proved [l]to result in death for me; 11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold [m]into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

21 I find then the [n]principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God [o]in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in [p]the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner [q]of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from [r]the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

I can't say what motivates you to use scripture in this way, but it's not a proper Bible hermeneutic.
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
Since the Holy Spirit is the best teacher we interpret the Bible according to the immediate context rather than read ideas into the text. I have responded accordingly.
Romans 8:9 is the same God 3 times as in the Trinity is One. That is not the verse I am speaking of at all. I'm saying Galatians 5:17 and Romans 7:25 are sister verses and the same human mind/spirit. Our human unregenerated spirit is not the Holy Spirit as they seem to claim. The Abingdon agrees with me and does not capitalize the "s."
Although I didn't find an Abingdon online it is clear that the context doesn't allow a for a small "s" in Gal 5:17. To verify this try reading a block of contiguous passages that has Galatians 5:17 in the middle, the block can be as small as three passages.

If after doing that you still disagree then try and make your case from the block of passages you chose in Galatians 5. If that can't be done from the text itself then you are reading an interpretation into the passage.
He is writing to saved Christians ABOUT the Gnostics in 1 John 4:1-3. The Abingdom agrees with me.
The entire epistle is written to Christians.
1 John 1:9 makes us a Christian. We are completely cleansed of all past sin and we are also given a new nature and the Holy Spirit to be dead to sin, so there is no need to have to use 1 John 1:9 again to become a Christian.
When John uses the word "we" in that passage he includes himself. That is what a first person plural indicates. The confession of sins is an ongoing act in the life of the Christian. This is indicated by verb translated as, "we confess," and is corroborated by the verb used in reference to God and translated as, "He is." The verb translated as, "He is," also conveys an ongoing act or act in progress. It is not, " we confessed," and, "He was." Nor is it if you will then He will.
You are talking about one sin, but 1 John 1:9 cleanses us from ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.
No, John wrote of the ongoing confession of sin rather than a particular single sin. See above regarding the verbs he used.
That is Jesus taking away the source of sin - the carnal nature. Now you have a choice and are no longer a slave to sin, so as John says in 1 John 2:1, I'm saying this so you will not sin. So it is possible.
The pertinent section of 1 John 2:1 is a statement of ongoing possibility rather than one of ongoing reality. So the YLT translates it as,"that ye may not sin and if anyone may sin."
But 1 John 5:16-17 shows there are two types of sin. Sins unto death and sins not unto death. We need to see how God looks at the two types of sin and I found that in Numbers 15:22-29 (sins not unto death that also Jesus is our Advocate), and 30-36; Hebrews 10:26-31 (sins unto death - no sacrifice).
The two types of sin are in 1 John.

What John conveys through his choice and use of verbs 1 John is stated more expansively in Hebrews 10:26.
By nature? Do you know what in us is born again? It is our nature, our mind and heart, not our body that must still die to be born again immortal. With the new nature we partake of the same divine nature as Christ, and he has given us the mind of Christ. What is closer to being like Christ than that? This is NOW in this life and is sanctification is complete at JUSTIFICATION. That is the beginning when the Spirit of Christ enters us with his fruit of the Spirit. The only sins we will commit after truly being born again are unintentional trespasses due to the maturing process of fruit, and Christ's pruning. John 15. This process of maturing in the fruit of the Spirit is glorification, and the steps are 2 Peter 1:5-7. Notice verses 8-11, and 2-4.
By nature means that is what He is rather than like men born in the ordinary way who must be born again or born from above.

I'll respond to rest of the section above on another board. Anyone can anticipate my response by reading the passages you cite in their immediate contexts.
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
The Abingdon has been soundly refuted more than once.




Once again The Abingdom doesn't tell the truth.


Here is the entire chapter 1 of 1 John 1.

1 John 1
New American Standard Bible 1995
1 What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life— 2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us— 3 what
we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ. 4 These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete.

5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we conf9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

Why didn't you comment on verse 3, where John says that context audience could have fellowship with them? BECAUSE, he is not preaching to BELIEVERS.



It Looks like you didn't comment on verse 8, because it destroys your sinless perfection heresy.

Here it is again.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.



Once again you leave out the context.

2 Peter 1:1-8
New American Standard Bible 1995
1 [a]Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have received a faith of the same
kind as ours, [c]by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: 2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; 3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us [d]by His own glory and [e]excellence. 4 [f]For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust. 5 Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral [g]excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, 6 and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, 7 and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul says the same thing, but he admits in Romans 7 that he still sins. I don't think you like that part.

Romans 7:7-25


7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except [e]through the Law; for I would not have known about [f]coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not [g]covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me [h]coveting of every kind; for apart [i]from the Law sin is dead. 9 I was once alive apart [j]from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; 10 and this commandment, which was [k]to result in life, proved [l]to result in death for me; 11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold [m]into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.


21 I find then the [n]principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God [o]in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in [p]the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner [q]of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from [r]the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

I can't say what motivates you to use scripture in this way, but it's not a proper Bible hermeneutic.
We agree that we the method of interpretation being used by the poster is conducive to error.

However, the context makes it clear that the entire epistle is to believers. The "we" and "us" of 1John 1:3 refer to the Apostles and other intimate disciples of Christ before His crucifixion. The epistle is primarily polemical.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
Although I didn't find an Abingdon online it is clear that the context doesn't allow a for a small "s" in Gal 5:17.

Hi there BJ. I haven't forgotten you. Having some issues with my computer and have taken it in for repair, but there is still something wrong, so taking it back at today's appt. and get Windows 10 put on it. That should solve the problem. It freezes up on me. Windows 7 is not getting any new updates from Microsoft for a couple years now. So I'm being forced to upgrade. At least I don't have to buy a new computer.

Anyway, this is one verse that has bothered me for years because it contradicted Romans 8:1-9 and the rest of what Jesus did for us in taking away our sin, so there was this nagging doubt in what I've already been taught by the Spirit. Am I hearing correctly? Sin is from the old nature, so if Jesus nailed it to the cross, how could it come down from the cross and fight with the Holy Spirit? See my dilemma? Either Jesus took away our sin as He said, or He didn't. I believe Him.

The context is about the Law. What frees us from the law? The freedom from sin, to no longer need the Law. Do you see that? So if we have the Spirit and walk in the Spirit we are not under the Law. If we don't have the Spirit, we will continually walk in the flesh - carnal nature - and not inherit the Kingdom of God. What other verse says the same thing as Gal. 5:17? Romans 7:25. This also helps us equate the mind with the spirit; therefore, that leaves the heart is the soul. Up until this revelation I couldn't define them. Now Scripture even makes that clear.

Oh how I LOVE these revelations. I love knowing what the Author means, and discard whatever man without the Spirit teaches. We've had those teachings of "reason" for hundreds of years.

Well, BJ, I sure wish you'd go to your profile and at least say whether you are a male or female. I don't know if you are a brethren, or a cistern. LOL

Talk to you when I get my computer back.
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
Hi there BJ. I haven't forgotten you. Having some issues with my computer and have taken it in for repair, but there is still something wrong, so taking it back at today's appt. and get Windows 10 put on it. That should solve the problem. It freezes up on me. Windows 7 is not getting any new updates from Microsoft for a couple years now. So I'm being forced to upgrade. At least I don't have to buy a new computer.
Hi, sorry to hear about your computer problems. I've been a Linux Mint user for many years, but I still keep an XP system around to run a unique app.
Anyway, this is one verse that has bothered me for years because it contradicted Romans 8:1-9 and the rest of what Jesus did for us in taking away our sin, so there was this nagging doubt in what I've already been taught by the Spirit. Am I hearing correctly? Sin is from the old nature, so if Jesus nailed it to the cross, how could it come down from the cross and fight with the Holy Spirit? See my dilemma?
Yes, I see your dilemma but it may be cleared up by recognizing that Jesus was crucified.
Either Jesus took away our sin as He said, or He didn't. I believe Him.
Jesus took away our sin in the way that He and the rest of Scripture says He did. Believing Him is the right thing to do, the God given thing to do.
The context is about the Law.
The context is that there is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus, Romans 8:1. What follows is an explanation of why this is so. The context is not about the law.
What frees us from the law?
Jesus frees us from the law of sin and death. The law of sin and death is not a reference to or a synonym for the law, the law of God.

Likewise, Paul would not compare the weakness of the law in accomplishing what God did accomplish in sending his Son.
The freedom from sin, to no longer need the Law. Do you see that?
No, because the categories you are using are not the categories of Scripture. See above.
So if we have the Spirit and walk in the Spirit we are not under the Law. If we don't have the Spirit, we will continually walk in the flesh - carnal nature - and not inherit the Kingdom of God. What other verse says the same thing as Gal. 5:17? Romans 7:25. This also helps us equate the mind with the spirit; therefore, that leaves the heart is the soul. Up until this revelation I couldn't define them. Now Scripture even makes that clear.
This will be repetitive, but the categories and definitions you are working with don't conform to what Scripture says when read according to it's immediate context.
Oh how I LOVE these revelations. I love knowing what the Author means, and discard whatever man without the Spirit teaches. We've had those teachings of "reason" for hundreds of years.

Well, BJ, I sure wish you'd go to your profile and at least say whether you are a male or female. I don't know if you are a brethren, or a cistern. LOL
I didn't find a button to click or where I could fulfill your request, but no matter how many may mistake me for a bear I am a man.
Talk to you when I get my computer back.
Ok, its a deal.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
Hi, sorry to hear about your computer problems. I've been a Linux Mint user for many years, but I still keep an XP system around to run a unique app.
Greek to me????

Yes, I see your dilemma but it may be cleared up by recognizing that Jesus was crucified.

Of course not.

Jesus took away our sin in the way that He and the rest of Scripture says He did. Believing Him is the right thing to do, the God given thing to do.

That is what I believe too, so why do so many fight that Jesus did NOT take away our sin, seeing as they still sin?

The context is that there is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus, Romans 8:1. What follows is an explanation of why this is so. The context is not about the law.

The SPIRIT frees us from sin, the reason for the old Law, and therefore, frees us from the old law.

Jesus frees us from the law of sin and death. The law of sin and death is not a reference to or a synonym for the law, the law of God.

Likewise, Paul would not compare the weakness of the law in accomplishing what God did accomplish in sending his Son.

The Spirit of Christ frees us from sin in that our old nature is nailed to the cross, and has given us a new born again nature. The result is not WILLFULLY breaking any of God's laws that He now has written on our born again hearts. But they are deeper laws than the Jewish Old Covenant Ten Commandments, though they certainly cover those too. It you love, you don't murder, so no need for a commandment to not murder if it is not in your heart to commit.

No, because the categories you are using are not the categories of Scripture. See above.

Confused. Where above?

This will be repetitive, but the categories and definitions you are working with don't conform to what Scripture says when read according to it's immediate context.

I don't agree. First do we agree that Romans 7 is about the Law?

Second: Galatians 5:16-21
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, [c]murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

What Law is it speaking of if not the same context as Romans 7?

I didn't find a button to click or where I could fulfill your request, but no matter how many may mistake me for a bear I am a man.
Thanks, brother!
 
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