Authentic Nouveau
Well-known member
Did Martie know Jesus was a Jew when he decided Jews should be killed?
Moved from SEP board--about Martin Luther
- Thread starter Authentic Nouveau
- Start date
Nic
Well-known member
Luther was a sinner just like the rest of humanity and like the rest of Christendom, he was also a saint.
BJ Bear
Well-known member
You just declared in large neon letters that you haven't read the work you cited and then pretended to comment upon above. In that work Luther specifically wrote not to harm their persons.
BJ Bear
Well-known member
Yes, that was probably too much Geek speak for most people.
I think this is a good place to focus the discussion for a bit. What does it mean when Scripture says in various ways that Jesus takes away our sins?
Here is an example from 1 John.
“2. Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been made manifest what we shall be, but we know that when He appears, we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him as He is.3. And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. 4. Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5. And you know that He appeared that He might take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6. Everyone who abides in Him does not sin; everyone who sins has not seen Him nor has he known Him.” (1Jo 3:2-6, EMTV)
Looking at verse three, when it says, "... everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself," the verb translated as, "purifies," indicates an ongoing action by everyone who has this hope in Him. There would be no need for this ongoing action if verse in verse five it meant that Jesus might take away our sin in a categorical or ontological sense in this life. If that were true then there would be no need for the ongoing action of everyone who has this hope in Him purifying himself in verse three.
According to the immediate context what do you say this section of Scripture means in this regard?
dberrie2020
Super Member
So--did Jesus comprehend the gospel?
Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Is that the "hard work" you refer to?
CharismaticLady
Well-known member
Wow, I'm glad someone added a post to this thread, otherwise I would never had seen an email alerting me to this thread! Somehow, I missed your response from OCTOBER!
So my response to Jesus taking away our sin is a question, which of the two types of sin does Jesus take away? 1 John 3:4 refers to the type of sin. LAWLESSNESS. Those are sins unto death, which would be anyone committing a sin the Israelite were commanded to kill - no sacrifice could cover these sins. So breaking one of the Ten Commandments that applied to their Covenant, sorcery, even a teenage thug. Galatians 5:19-21 gives a good list.
What is left that we must grow in, 1 John 3:3, have to do with the fruit of the Spirit and 2 Peter 1:5-7 gives the steps of that growth.
dberrie2020
Super Member
While I do agree with that--for a Lutheran--that would probably fall into the category of "works righteous cults".
CharismaticLady
Well-known member
Beloved Daughter
Super Member
Shameful disrespect of Dr. Martin Luther.
Ephesians 4:29English Standard Version (ESV)
29 Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.
1 Corinthians 1:10English Standard Version (ESV)
10 I appeal to you, brothers,[a] by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.
2 Timothy 2:14English Standard Version (ESV)
14 Remind them of these things, and charge them before God[a] not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers.
James 1:26 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
26 If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless.
Beloved Daughter
Super Member
According to you, the Bible cannot be trusted. How sad is that? Don't even try to deny it. I have your words.
dberrie2020
Super Member
To be sure--that seems to me like calling the kettle black.
Lutheranism has precious little in common with the Biblical text:
Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Beloved Daughter
Super Member
You can hold whatever opinion you want. The facts overwhelm you.
My comment was to a poster (I have the facts) who does not believe the Bible.
Come to think of it, aren't you a Mormon?
dberrie2020
Super Member
Are you referring to these facts?
Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
That certainly overwhelms faith alone theology.
BJ Bear
Well-known member
And hear I thought you were enjoying a peaceful vacation somewhere.Wow, I'm glad someone added a post to this thread, otherwise I would never had seen an email alerting me to this thread! Somehow, I missed your response from OCTOBER!
Jesus takes away the sin of the world, John 1:29. Or as he wrote in 1 John, “And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not only concerning ours, but also concerning those of the whole world.” (1Jo 2:2, EMTV)
This looks like it is based on a misunderstanding of terms. Sticking with 1 John and the verse you cited above, all sin is lawlessness, “Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.” (1Jo 3:4, EMTV)
It is because sin is lawlessness that the one who practices sin practices lawlessness.
Sticking with 1John it is apparent that the faithful are not without sin, just as he wrote earlier in the Epistle, since the one that has the hope that he shall be without sin like Him purifies himself. “2. Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been made manifest what we shall be, but we know that when He appears, we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him as He is. 3. And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.” (1Jo 3:2-3, EMTV)
What isn't always apparent in English translations is the type of action conveyed by a Greek verb. In the passages cited above the verbs and participle translated as purifies, practices [sin], and practices [lawlessness] indicate an ongoing action. The YLT uses doth and doing to indicate this type of action.
The one who purifies himself, an ongoing action, is by definition not pure in and of himself, or to use John's words, “If we claim that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” (1Jo 1:8, EMTV)
e v e 21
Well-known member
lawlessness is the theme of the fleshbody,
which is an abomination to Him .
Only christ can get us out of that…situation, and save us from here…
for there is no righteousness in this world, literally…
Bonnie
Super Member
No righteousness in the world, but Jesus Christ is our righteousness, when we put our faith and trust in Him for eternal life in heaven, great and free.
Jesus Christ is OUR righteousness. In Him alone are we made righteous in God's eyes.
e v e 21
Well-known member
dberrie2020
Super Member
While I don't disagree with that principle--I believe it goes a tad bit deeper than Lutheran theology can brook:
1 John 3:7--King James Version
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
CharismaticLady
Well-known member
Hi Bear,
I wish you would buy yourself an Abingdon Bible Commentary so you will once and for all see that Jesus was not lying when He claimed to take away our sin. So how can we be lying if we have confessed our sin and Jesus took it away? Also, look up 1 John 5:16-17. It shows the two types of sin as recorded in the old covenant, Numbers 15:22-36. He not only took away our old sin nature, but given us His Spirit to continually convict us to do righteousness, called "keeping ourselves" 1 John 5:18, or "purifying ourselves" 1 John 3:3. Know that no one with sin in them will inherit eternal life, so we must keep ourselves from sin; otherwise Jesus will say I never knew you. Matthew 7:21-23.
They are cheap on ebay
The Abingdon Bible Commentary, 1929 First Ed., Eiselen/Lewis/Downey; HC, GC
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