CharismaticLady
Well-known member
Hi eve.
Jesus gives us His Spirit to dwell inside of us HERE AND NOW. No one who has sin in them will inherit eternal life. That is why Jesus gave us all the tools needed to live eternally.
Moved from SEP board--about Martin Luther
- Thread starter Authentic Nouveau
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Hi eve.
Jesus gives us His Spirit to dwell inside of us HERE AND NOW. No one who has sin in them will inherit eternal life. That is why Jesus gave us all the tools needed to live eternally.
e v e 21
Well-known member
all His will be restored at the Change Paul talks about and be righteous.
BJ Bear
Well-known member
Hi Charismatic Lady,
I found a copy in which the section on 1 John begins on page 1350 and is written by Burton Scott(?). It's not in front of me right now so I am not sure.
If you have a page or particular section in 1 John that you would like me to read then please point that out.
In what I've read so far the author recognizes that 1 John has warnings about sin but in his words John, "doesn't dwell on them." Then he goes on to write that little or "minor" sins, "don't cloud," our relationship with Jesus, or something along those lines.
If the author writes of sins and tells the reader not to let his conscience bother him over "minor" sins why do you keep writing of our categorical sinlessness such that we don't have sin to ask forgiveness for as 1 John plainly tells us?? Are you writing that we should only ask for forgiveness of "major" sins? Is there forgiveness in your view for those who commit "major" sins?
I will finish reading the section on the Epistles of John, but so far I don't see any reason to ignore what Scripture actually says in those Epistles about our sin or anything else.
CharismaticLady
Well-known member
When Paul is talking about "the change" he is talking about the REMAINING part of us, our physical body of muscle, blood and bones. But that won't happen UNLESS you have already been changed from within yourself - your nature. Our nature must first be born again. For our body to put on immortality at the resurrection - change, our spirit and soul must already be born again so we are free from sin. Romans 6:6-7.
CharismaticLady
Well-known member
page 1353, chapter I, verses 5-10.
CharismaticLady
Well-known member
We must be already righteous or holy to remain righteous or holy at the resurrection. Revelation 22:11
Otherwise, everyone would be saved.
e v e 21
Well-known member
no one is righteous in this body...for its an abomination...
He will make His ones righteous , rescuing His 144k who understood... from here...
soon.
BJ Bear
Well-known member
Okay, I have now read that section and will agree with his statement that John means what he says. One significant issue which you and I do not currently agree upon, and which the author passed over with no comment whatsoever, is the type of action indicated by the verbs in 1 John 1:8-10.
In the quote below of those verses the "we" refers to John, the Apostles, the intended recipient of the letter, in short it refers to all Christians. The verbs which are Aorist tense are only bold and indicate an undefined type of action. The take away is that the action occurred. The verbs that are Present tense are in red bold and indicate an ongoing or continuos action. The Perfect tense verbs are bold blue and the type of action indicated is, "that the progress of an action has been completed and the results of the action are continuing on, in full effect." www.ntgreek.org
A convenient site to read brief summaries of the type of action indicated by a Greek verb tense is here. A person will need to scroll down to verb tenses to read of the types of action.
“8. If we claim (AAS) that we have (PAI) no sin, we are (PAI) deceiving ourselves, and the truth is (P-I) not in us.9. If we confess (PAS) our sins, He is (P-I) faithful and just to forgive (AAS) us our sins and to cleanse (AAS) us from all unrighteousness. 10. If we claim (AAS) that we have (RAI) not sinned, we make (PAI) Him a liar, and His word is (P-I) not in us.” (1Jo 1:8-10, EMTV)
So looking at verse 8, "If we claim," ever claim, "that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves," an ongoing or continuos action unless or until that false claim is repented of, "and the truth is not in us," this too is an ongoing or continuos action unless or until that false claim is repented of.
9. If we confess our sins," if we do come to repentance of that false claim and confess our sins, an ongoing action, "He is (P-I) faithful and just," an ongoing action, "to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us of all unrighteousness."
"10. If we claim," ever claim, "that we have not sinned," the progress of the actions are completed with ongoing results, "we make Him a liar," an ongoing action unless or until that false claim is repented of, "and His word is (P-I) not in us," an ongoing action unless or until that false claim is repented of.
If a passage comes to mind that you think conflicts with what John wrote above then please post it so we can take a look at it.
Christ is our righteousness through faith, “Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:” (2Pe 1:1, EMTV) He came to save sinners, “Faithful is this word, and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.” (1Ti 1:15, EMTV)
Please note that in the concluding passage, 1 Tim 1:15, that Paul wrote he is the chief of sinners rather than he was the chief of sinners.
CharismaticLady
Well-known member
After much study of all Scripture, there can be no conflicts. If there are we must humble ourselves and ask God why, and He will tell us. James 1:5-6. He will remind us through His word corroborating Scriptures. IOW Scripture will explain Scripture. 1 John 1 8 and 10 are corroborated by Paul's Romans 3:
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a [h]propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
This is talking about both Jew and Gentile - mankind.
Your argument about verbs and tenses is moot because verse 6 has the same and is definitely NOT a born again Christian. How can you have God inside of you who is LIGHT and has changed your very nature, nailing your old nature on the cross, and you still walk in darkness? Where is the light promised? Verse 7 is a Christian. If you walk in the light, as Jesus is in the light, you have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus will cleanse you of all unrighteousness.
I had to ask myself what unrighteousness can we have while walking in the light? So again James 1:5-6. The Lord's Prayer shows us the type of sin that we as Christians need to grow out of - debts against one another. These are trespasses that are unwittingly committed. Leviticus 5:15. A Christian doesn't willfully hurt people's feelings. The fruit of the Spirit has to grow and be fruitful - John 15. And we aren't even talking about the sins against God like murder or thievery - major sins of lawlessness. That is without question not in our new nature to do. But even that is not what the modern church filled with itching ears believes. They are told they still have their old nature and Jesus didn't take away our sin nature at all. (a heresy)
Verse 9 is not a continuing action as you claim. As a born again Christian you cannot confess to a sin you've unintentionally committed and is unknown to you, otherwise you wouldn't have committed it in the first place. You live up to the light you have. Philippians 3:16. Verse 9 corroborates with Acts 2:38. It is what we must come to do after we have heard and believed the truth in order to BECOME born again, a must to become a Christian. Personally, it took 30 years for me to know the truth. In the meantime I was in church and learning. But never hearing the truth. I was in a works orientated church of keeping the letter of the law - Seventh-day Adventist. That is not to say anything against that denomination - I gained a tremendous foundation of Scripture.
The Scriptures teach us what God expects from us that Jesus taught. "Be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect." “Be holy, for I am holy.”
Wow, I can never be perfect! I can never be holy! And we would be right. And out of that realization comes integrity of heart. What we confess is our nature's inability to be what God wants from us. Our nature is what we repent from. And our nature is what Jesus will take away - the source of sin inherited from Adam's willful sin against God. Romans 6:6-7. And as we forgive others their trespasses against us and be reconciled (the middle of verse 7) we are continually in a right stand with God called righteousness. Unlike Romans 7, we no longer do what our conscience tells us is against God. We have the mind of Christ.
CharismaticLady
Well-known member
Eve, our body is NOT where sin dwells. Sin is INSIDE us - in our nature. Our inside old nature (mind and heart/emotions) will be nailed to the cross for those Jesus makes born again with a brand new nature. Romans 6:6-7 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. (and born again with the mind of Christ and divine nature. NOW!!!!!)
You erroneously believe that verse is future when our shell is raised at the resurrection. Our shell is not sinful, but still must die and put on immortality to match our ALREADY born again spirit and soul. If we still have sin in us on that day we will not be changed
dberrie2020
Super Member
Come to think of it--the Biblical text is canonized scripture in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
They believe the witness of the Biblical text:
Romans 6:16---King James Version
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
So--how do we fit that into faith alone theology?
dberrie2020
Super Member
How does that preclude the witness of the scriptures here?
1 John 3:7---King James Version
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
e v e 21
Well-known member
e v e 21
Well-known member
our fallen 'nature' is this flesh. carnality. it's not just a mindset.
CharismaticLady
Well-known member
I have for listened to Him for years and the Spirit taught me the truth on many Scriptures. Then one day I decided to see how many of my commentaries in my extensive home library agreed with what I was taught. I looked up many scriptures that we debate on the forums. All the commentaries, but one, agreed with everyone else but me. The one, the Abingdon Bible Commentary, agreed with me on every verse that I am certain God had spoken to me on. It is no wonder everybody fights with me. LOL They don't learn from the Spirit, they learn from the commentaries. I never look to commentaries on what to believe; I only believe what God reveals to me.
BJ Bear
Well-known member
That's a good section of Scripture, but you're using it in an out of context manner to try and justify a misinterpretation of a passage in which there are no dark or obscure words.
The Holy Spirit is the best teacher. To reach the Spirit's intended meaning of a passage the reader has to pay attention to and respect the marks on the page rather than try and read an interpretation into a passage.
In this case, 1 John 1:6, the word, "we," is a first person plural. It isn't secret code for a third person plural. Since it is a first person plural it includes John, the Apostles, and the intended recipients, that is, it includes all Christians.
What you are suggesting is that your interpretation of 1 John 1:6 overrules what the passage actually says.
“If we claim to have fellowship with Him, and we are walking in the darkness, we are lying, and are not practicing the truth.” (1Jo 1:6, EMTV)
The verb translated as, "If we claim," is in the subjunctive mood so the question you ask above is inappropriate. It is an inappropriate question because it doesn't fit the stated circumstance of, "If you say you have fellowship with Him while walking in darkness then..."
The use of out of context passages in an attempt to justify a misinterpretation is an error.
The wisdom given by the Holy Spirit is in the word. If someone concludes that "wisdom" is contrary to what the Holy Spirit intends for people to know and believe in Scripture according to it's God given perfect immediate context then that person errs.
The words of the English translation of 1 John 1:9 were quoted. Unless you are going to claim the passage was mistranslated then you're claiming that the Holy Spirit erred because you disagree with what the passage says and means.
In the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector which one went home justified? It was the tax collector who went home justified: not the Pharisee. What was the difference between the two?
The tax collector pled the sacrifice, "Lord be propitious to me the sinner," Luke 18:13. The Pharisee only pled what he did. Everyone should recognize that Jesus wasn't proclaiming a justification by works with that parable. In the same way, John is proclaiming the blood of the sacrifice, Christ, in 1 John 1 rather tham proclaiming a justification by works.
CharismaticLady
Well-known member
Hi Bear,
Did John walk in darkness as you claim? Read it in the context of contrasts.
5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
I want you to look at the letters from Jesus to the seven churches, specifically the one to the church age, Sardis, just following the RCC and Orthodox age, Thyatira, the longest church age.
“And to the angel of the church in Sardis write,
‘These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. 4 You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
6 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” ’
Bear, you are believing the doctrines from the beginning of the Reformation that are not life changing but keep your spirit dead in sin. It was a carnal message that we will always sin, and as you say, even walk in darkness. Those who walk in darkness do NOT have their sins cleansed. Don't you know that Satan doesn't care if you believe in Jesus, as long as you don't know the truth, and keep your sin nature and keep sinning? We MUST be born again of the Spirit. The Spirit is the "seed of the Father." See 1 John 3:9 "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." The watered down version adds the word, "practice." But ask yourself how many times you need to murder for you to be a damned murderer? Practice has nothing to do with God's cleansing rebirth except that we practice righteousness.
I believe those who came later in the middle of the Reformation 500 years like John Wesley. We must walk with Jesus in white (light), for they are worthy.
BJ Bear
Well-known member
Hi!
Did John write that he walks in darkness, a continuous action, or did he wrote that if we say that we have fellowship with Him but walk in darkness, a continuous action, we are lying and not practicing the truth? It is the latter.
According to 1 John 1 and the rest of Scripture Christians can and do sin. What stops it from being a continuos action is that they repent of their sin. John's purpose for the verses we are discussing is explicitly stated in 2:1.
“My little children, these things I write to you, that you may not sin. And if someone should sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.” (1Jo 2:1, EMTV)
According to the contrast to claim we have fellowship with Him but walk in darkness, a continuous action, we are lying and don't practice the truth. That firmly establishes my affirmation of what John wrote.
That statement is framed within a story and is an out of context . misuse of Scripture.
I am affirming what Scripture actually says and means according to it's God given perfect immediate context. You are the one opposing the plain meaning of the text through an out of context misuse and abuse of Scripture.
CharismaticLady
Well-known member
The last three verses of chapter 1 is also a section (paragraph) just as 5-7 is. The Gnostics of 1 John 4:1-3 believed on sins of the Spirit were sins, but not of the flesh, so thus they did not believed they had any sin that mattered. They were ignorant of the true gospel of Christ. Verse 9 is not continuously sinning and repenting, but to repent as in Acts 2:38 in order to be born again and filled with the Spirit. Verse 10 is those under the law that were raised in the law from birth. They did not examine their hearts and just like John 8:32-38 did not believe themselves to be actually slaves to sin.
1 John 2:1 shows it is possible to not sin at all, unlike the "we will always sin while in these bodies" is preached and believed to console sinners in the Church. Jesus is our Advocate like in 1 John 1:7 WHILE WALKING IN THE LIGHT, not for those in darkness. 1 John 2:1 is to Christians about sins not unto death, the only sin mentioned in the Lord's Prayer - trespasses - Leviticus 5:15 unwittingly committed.
Do you know how many claim to be both sinner and a Christian. We cannot walk in darkness and light at the same time. And a true Christian ABIDES in the light. They are never out of the light because their new nature keeps them.
It is talking about the Reformation, just as Thyatira is about the RCC and Orthodox church age. And what you believe is the dead teaching from the beginning of the Reformation and is why you interpret 1 John 1 as you do, along with all others in that indoctrination. Become a Bereran and stop thinking those church fathers were infallible.