Moves in Ukraine to ban the Ukrainian Orthodox Church

Theophilos

Theophilos

Well-known member
Two bills have been introduced to effectively ban the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, which remains in communion with the Russian Orthodox Patriarch in Moscow. There are also reports of violence directed against this church, which is the largest denomination in Ukraine.

Two separate bills aimed at the dissolution of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church were submitted to and registered by the Verkhovna Rada, the Ukrainian Parliament, over the past week. . . Since the fratricidal war began last month, different reactions to the canonical Ukrainian Church, an autonomous body within the Moscow Patriarchate, have been seen. Some, including certain government officials and bodies, have called for all Ukrainians to unite, decrying the attacks and fake accusations against the Church, while others have only ramped up the attacks, despite the Church’s strong stance against the war. . . The number of violent church seizures has markedly increased since last month, including 6 churches in the Vinnitsa Diocese alone.
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The rival Orthodox Church of Ukraine is no longer in communion with the Moscow. It severed relations back in a schism in 2019.
en.wikipedia.org

2018 Moscow–Constantinople schism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

Should the US and its allies defend religious freedom and condemn these efforts against the Ukrainian Orthodox Church?

Or is this strictly an internal question for Ukraine?
 
Theophilos said:
Two bills have been introduced to effectively ban the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, which remains in communion with the Russian Orthodox Patriarch in Moscow. There are also reports of violence directed against this church, which is the largest denomination in Ukraine.



The rival Orthodox Church of Ukraine is no longer in communion with the Moscow. It severed relations back in a schism in 2019.
en.wikipedia.org

2018 Moscow–Constantinople schism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

Should the US and its allies defend religious freedom and condemn these efforts against the Ukrainian Orthodox Church?

Or is this strictly an internal question for Ukraine?
Click to expand...
Some Ukrainians are Orthodox, but the ones I grew up with were all Catholic. The Catholic church has at least 5 rites. The RCC is by far the biggest, but the Byzantine rite is a substantial group and includes the Ukrainian Catholics. Their services are more similar to those of the Orthodox church, but they are in communion with the Pope.

In Russia, the Orthodox Church has become the official church and has close ties with the Kremlin. Their Patriarch is close to Putin, and the two share views on cultural issues.

During the Soviet era, churches other then the Orthodox church were banned, so it is not surprising that the few people who belong to churches are Orthodox. When I was in Ukraine in the 1970s, most churches were padlocked or converted into museums.
 
vibise said:
Some Ukrainians are Orthodox, but the ones I grew up with were all Catholic. The Catholic church has at least 5 rites. The RCC is by far the biggest, but the Byzantine rite is a substantial group and includes the Ukrainian Catholics. Their services are more similar to those of the Orthodox church, but they are in communion with the Pope.

In Russia, the Orthodox Church has become the official church and has close ties with the Kremlin. Their Patriarch is close to Putin, and the two share views on cultural issues.

During the Soviet era, churches other then the Orthodox church were banned, so it is not surprising that the few people who belong to churches are Orthodox. When I was in Ukraine in the 1970s, most churches were padlocked or converted into museums.
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I am Byzantine Catholic, so I am very familiar with the history. The Soviets outlawed our church for 40 years and many Byzantine Catholics were executed or sent to Siberian labor camps. For background see: https://www.eparchyofpassaic.com/romzha

Neither of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church nor the Orthodox Church of Ukraine is in communion with Rome. The schism is a result of a dispute between the Patriarch of Constantinople and the Patriarch of Moscow. Constantinople revoked a decision from 1686 that gave Moscow control over the Orthodox Church in Ukraine over objections from Moscow.

The Soviets persecuted all religion including the Orthodox Christians. Attacking some Orthodox Christians because of the actions of communist leaders from decades ago makes no sense. It certainly does not agree with Christian teachings in my opinion.
 
Theophilos said:
Two bills have been introduced to effectively ban the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, which remains in communion with the Russian Orthodox Patriarch in Moscow. There are also reports of violence directed against this church, which is the largest denomination in Ukraine.



The rival Orthodox Church of Ukraine is no longer in communion with the Moscow. It severed relations back in a schism in 2019.
en.wikipedia.org

2018 Moscow–Constantinople schism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

Should the US and its allies defend religious freedom and condemn these efforts against the Ukrainian Orthodox Church?

Or is this strictly an internal question for Ukraine?
Click to expand...
Easy. Defend religious freedom. But they won’t.

I have a sneaking suspicion this has something to do with the fake Pope supposedly “consecrating” Russia to the immaculate heart of Pachamama, so Russia/Ukraine can pretend to convert to the fake Catholic Church and work to complete the one world religion they need for their one world government. China got on board a few years ago.
 
DeSanto said:
Easy. Defend religious freedom. But they won’t.

I have a sneaking suspicion this has something to do with the fake Pope supposedly “consecrating” Russia to the immaculate heart of Pachamama, so Russia/Ukraine can pretend to convert to the fake Catholic Church and work to complete the one world religion they need for their one world government. China got on board a few years ago.
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The long history of political intrigue, religious wars, and similar, make this a very hard question for Protestants to get their heads around. When various orthodox churches seem to be aligning themselves with temporal authorities in a way that seems to be a lot more temporal than transcendent, Protestants are reminded of a great deal of very difficult Christian history.
 
Theophilos said:
I am Byzantine Catholic, so I am very familiar with the history. The Soviets outlawed our church for 40 years and many Byzantine Catholics were executed or sent to Siberian labor camps. For background see: https://www.eparchyofpassaic.com/romzha

Neither of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church nor the Orthodox Church of Ukraine is in communion with Rome. The schism is a result of a dispute between the Patriarch of Constantinople and the Patriarch of Moscow. Constantinople revoked a decision from 1686 that gave Moscow control over the Orthodox Church in Ukraine over objections from Moscow.

The Soviets persecuted all religion including the Orthodox Christians. Attacking some Orthodox Christians because of the actions of communist leaders from decades ago makes no sense. It certainly does not agree with Christian teachings in my opinion.
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I am Ukrainian Catholic, and our churches are in communion with Rome.
Western Ukraine is Catholic and eastern Ukraine is Orthodox, like Russia.

The Russian Orthodox church is accepted in Russia, and its Patriarch is good buddies with Putin. They both share the same views (along with American RWers) on cultural issues like treatment of LGBTQ people.
 
vibise said:
I am Ukrainian Catholic, and our churches are in communion with Rome.
Western Ukraine is Catholic and eastern Ukraine is Orthodox, like Russia.

The Russian Orthodox church is accepted in Russia, and its Patriarch is good buddies with Putin. They both share the same views (along with American RWers) on cultural issues like treatment of LGBTQ people.
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What's the Ukrainian Catholic view on LGBTQ++++?
 
vibise said:
I don't know, as I am currently a Lutheran.

I should note, however, that Ukrainian Catholics accept married priests.
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Seems some Italian Catholic Vigano has accused Zelensky of promoting gay rights, same as Russian Orthodox, who see it as an existensial threat to Russia.

I reckon Ukrainian Catholics are likely to be very conservative like Orthodox.
 
vibise said:
I am Ukrainian Catholic, and our churches are in communion with Rome.
Western Ukraine is Catholic and eastern Ukraine is Orthodox, like Russia.

The Russian Orthodox church is accepted in Russia, and its Patriarch is good buddies with Putin. They both share the same views (along with American RWers) on cultural issues like treatment of LGBTQ people.
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What exactly do you mean by "treatment of LGBTQ people?"
 
vibise said:
I am Ukrainian Catholic, and our churches are in communion with Rome.
Western Ukraine is Catholic and eastern Ukraine is Orthodox, like Russia.

The Russian Orthodox church is accepted in Russia, and its Patriarch is good buddies with Putin. They both share the same views (along with American RWers) on cultural issues like treatment of LGBTQ people.
Click to expand...



Lutheran is against pro-life.
the Fathers of the Eastern Orthodox Church always viewed abortion a grave sin and equated it with murder.
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1 Kings 15:12​


9And in the twentieth year of Jeroboam king of Israel reigned Asa over Judah. 10And forty and one years reigned he in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Maachah, the daughter of Abishalom. 11And Asa did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, as did David his father. 12And he took away the sodomites out of the land, and removed all the idols that his fathers had made. 13And also Maachah his mother, even her he removed from being queen, because she had made an idol in a grove; and Asa destroyed her idol, and burnt it by the brook Kidron.

God is not concerned about your cultural issues and carnality.
 
cjab said:
Seems some Italian Catholic Vigano has accused Zelensky of promoting gay rights, same as Russian Orthodox, who see it as an existensial threat to Russia.

I reckon Ukrainian Catholics are likely to be very conservative like Orthodox.
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Here is a conservative congregation youth choir in America. Ukraine legal immigrants.


They are more devoted to Praising Jesus and just not into Baal carnality.
 
Thistle said:
The long history of political intrigue, religious wars, and similar, make this a very hard question for Protestants to get their heads around. When various orthodox churches seem to be aligning themselves with temporal authorities in a way that seems to be a lot more temporal than transcendent, Protestants are reminded of a great deal of very difficult Christian history.
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Let’s question the history we’re taught.

I see Protestantism as part of the problem. I see it as having been manufactured specifically TO divide and conquer… created and controlled BY the very same elements they claim to protest against.

You see?
 
DeSanto said:
Let’s question the history we’re taught.

I see Protestantism as part of the problem. I see it as having been manufactured specifically TO divide and conquer… created and controlled BY the very same elements they claim to protest against.

You see?
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Protestantism launched by Luther. Mennonites were not part of that and thousands left Germany and settled in Ukraine. Their solid commitment was Kleine Gemeindie which avoided grouping into a denomination with hierarchy. When independent churches form into growing group sizes and eventually become a large percentage of a country, they end up tying up with the Gubment and things get cold and go down hill. See The Church of England. Countries dominated with Islam also the muslims run the gubment. The law.
 
DeSanto said:
Let’s question the history we’re taught.

I see Protestantism as part of the problem. I see it as having been manufactured specifically TO divide and conquer… created and controlled BY the very same elements they claim to protest against.

You see?
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I don't mean to absolve Protestants of their role in this difficult Christian history. Certainly protestants fought religious wars as surely as orthodox Christians did, and they burned people of the stake just like orthodox Christians did. And Protestant theologians were beholding to powerful patrons and princes just as orthodox Christians were. But with a couple of hundred years of American religious autonomy under our belt the European notion of state churches seems particularly ill advised.
 
cjab said:
Seems some Italian Catholic Vigano has accused Zelensky of promoting gay rights, same as Russian Orthodox, who see it as an existensial threat to Russia.

I reckon Ukrainian Catholics are likely to be very conservative like Orthodox.
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Catholics in general are very conservative.
 
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