My Exegesis of Eph 2:8-9

Theo1689

Well-known member
Taking my words out of context much?

Nope.
But thank you for the false accusation.
It seems to be the only thing Mormons are able to do, since they are incapable of defending their indefensible theology.

I said:

Paul preached foolishness to the Greeks (1 Cor 1:23).

Exactly.

And anyone who looks up 1 Cor. 1:23 can plainly see that Paul NEVER said any such thing.

1 Cor 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles,

I will accept your apology now.


You need to give it up, and stop digging your hole deeper and deeper.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
Nope.
But thank you for the false accusation.
It seems to be the only thing Mormons are able to do, since they are incapable of defending their indefensible theology.

Exactly.

And anyone who looks up 1 Cor. 1:23 can plainly see that Paul NEVER said any such thing.

1 Cor 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles,

I will accept your apology now.

You need to give it up, and stop digging your hole deeper and deeper.
Well, my, my....
Please accept apology...🙄
 

John t

Super Member
I appreciate you recognizing my effort.
Likewise, I appreciate your detailed response.

Yet, I think it’s apparent we are simply on two different frequencies, and just don’t understand each other. I also we have limited trust, which is understandable.

I consider my understanding (or lack thereof) Of the word “exegesis” the minutiae of the argument.
<SNIP>
Until you deal with this, you are merely presenting your OPINION and mis-defining it as "exegesis".

7 ινα ενδειξηται εν τοις αιωσιν τοις επερχομενοις το υπερβαλλον πλουτος της χαριτος αυτου εν χρηστοτητι εφ ημας εν χριστω ιησου
8 τη γαρ χαριτι εστε σεσωσμενοι δια πιστεως και τουτο ουκ εξ υμων θεου το δωρον
9 ουκ εξ εργων ινα μη τις καυχησηται
10 αυτου γαρ εσμεν ποιημα κτισθεντες εν χριστω ιησου επι εργοις αγαθοις οις προητοιμασεν ο θεος ινα εν αυτοις περιπατησωμεν
 

kpasa

Member
Pretty good, except for the BoMquotes. We do not need those. The Bible is 100% sufficient to know the true Gospel message and God's will. Also, Jesus meant Himself when He said "upon THIS Rock" I will build my church." Certainly the church is built upon the foundation of the 12 apostles, but Jesus is the cornerstone, the BIG Rock. The other rocks are little rocks...And I do not mean the capital of Arkansas! :p
Speaking of Little Rock, that is where I am presently doing a contract in microbiology. 2 Nephi contains numerous anachronisms as well, since it was allegedly written BC/BCE and many of the words used in it would not have been used in the Hebrew or the 'reformed egyptian' languages. Not even in the Greek LXX (CA 215 BC/BCE) does one find many of the alleged idioms and wordings found in either the BoM as a whole, or in 2 Nephi in this particular case.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Speaking of Little Rock, that is where I am presently doing a contract in microbiology. 2 Nephi contains numerous anachronisms as well, since it was allegedly written BC/BCE and many of the words used in it would not have been used in the Hebrew or the 'reformed egyptian' languages. Not even in the Greek LXX (CA 215 BC/BCE) does one find many of the alleged idioms and wordings found in either the BoM as a whole, or in 2 Nephi in this particular case.
Ever read the part near the end where a guy's headless corpse struggles to get up and breathe...? AFTER having his head chopped off?

How about those seaworthy barges, with holes in the top AND bottom.....

You might find this essay interesting and enlightening:

THE BOOK OF MORMON: A BOOK OF MISTAKES, ERROR, AND FRAUD

untitled (apologeticspress.org)
 

John t

Super Member
Until you deal with this, you are merely presenting your OPINION and mis-defining it as "exegesis".

7 ινα ενδειξηται εν τοις αιωσιν τοις επερχομενοις το υπερβαλλον πλουτος της χαριτος αυτου εν χρηστοτητι εφ ημας εν χριστω ιησου
8 τη γαρ χαριτι εστε σεσωσμενοι δια πιστεως και τουτο ουκ εξ υμων θεου το δωρον
9 ουκ εξ εργων ινα μη τις καυχησηται
10 αυτου γαρ εσμεν ποιημα κτισθεντες εν χριστω ιησου επι εργοις αγαθοις οις προητοιμασεν ο θεος ινα εν αυτοις περιπατησωμεν

That is how you silence the Mormons, folks!

They tell you that they can "exegete" (to them, it means to give one's uninformed opinion :rolleyes: ) then hope that no one calls you on your almost 60 days of silence when the original language is produced.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
That is how you silence the Mormons, folks!

They tell you that they can "exegete" (to them, it means to give one's uninformed opinion :rolleyes: ) then hope that no one calls you on your almost 60 days of silence when the original language is produced.
What part of that do you think we're not dealing with?
 

John t

Super Member
What part of that do you think we're not dealing with?
That is irrelevant.

There is nothing resembling proper exegesis in any post from any Mormon.

It is kinda like the Mormon curelomons or "useful North American elephants. They don't exist, so why say that they do?
 

John t

Super Member
Speaking of Little Rock, that is where I am presently doing a contract in microbiology
Your shameless self promotion is exposed! :D

Welcome to CARM, I hope that you find it pleasant. It is FAR better other so-called "Christian Forums" where discussing the cults, and other religions is actually forbidden. Long story on that.

2 Nephi contains numerous anachronisms as well, since it was allegedly written BC/BCE and many of the words used in it would not have been used in the Hebrew or the 'reformed egyptian' languages. Not even in the Greek LXX (CA 215 BC/BCE) does one find many of the alleged idioms and wordings found in either the BoM as a whole, or in 2 Nephi in this particular case.

My SPSS is expired, and I cannot access it, but from what you revealed. I am sure you have access to software you can do a Chi-Square analysis, and vigorously defend those very large numbers. Nor do I have the raw data available.

The reason I am on this tangent is because you are focused on a textural analysis of anachronisms in the BoM and 2 Nephi in particular. From our studied of statistics, we both understand that if the same sort of word patterns happen over several different books of the BoM, it points to unassailable evidence of the BoM being a pious fraud foisted on the spiritually blind Mormons.

In the same manner the usage of one phrase many times in many different book of the BoM indelibly point to single authorship, especially if it is compared to a control, such as the Old Testament, which we know does have many authors, (and I am not meaning higher criticism).

Thus it is possible, and tedious to do a cut-and-paste of every chapter or book of the BoM into Word, and using its "find" command count the number of times that the phrase "and it came to pass" is used, turning that into raw data. The best part of that sort of raw data is that it is finite, therefore measurable and verifiable.

Thus you have another way to use your post grad degree to write a book that will stand the test of time and accuracy in the evangelizing the lost Mormons. .

Your comments are welcome, and we can also keep this off the board via the PM mail available at CARM
 

John t

Super Member
John t said:

There is nothing resembling proper exegesis in any post from any Mormon.

Thank you for your opinion.

Since you missed my analogies it is plain to all that
  1. You have no idea of the definition of the word "exegesis" or else you would have used it in your defense
  2. You (and EVERY other Mormon) have NOT provided anything that is close to the meaning of the word, "exegesis"
  3. Therefore, based on the first two criteria, y'all make yourselves look very foolish every time you use that word
 
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Theo1689

Well-known member
Since you missed my analogies it is plain to all that
  1. You have no idea of the definition of the word "exegesis" or else you would have used it in your defense
  2. You (and EVERY other Mormon) have NOT provided anything that is close to the meaning of the word, "exegesis"
  3. Therefore, based on the first two criteria, y'all make yourselves look very foolish every time you use that word

Yep...

When Mormons are asked to explain what Eph. 2:8-9 means, and they immediately run off to Genesis, or Matthew, or John, it is pretty obvious that have no clue what "exegesis" actually is.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Yep...

When Mormons are asked to explain what Eph. 2:8-9 means, and they immediately run off to Genesis, or Matthew, or John, it is pretty obvious that have no clue what "exegesis" actually is.
Aaron tried, in his thread about those verses.
 

kpasa

Member
Your shameless self promotion is exposed! :D

Welcome to CARM, I hope that you find it pleasant. It is FAR better other so-called "Christian Forums" where discussing the cults, and other religions is actually forbidden. Long story on that.
I have been on the forum before as desertscout and ken pasano and have been gone for a while. I came out of retirement to help during this covid crisis, plus it is winter and things are slow on the farm. I'm also an ex-Mormon who attended a Mormon temple during the time that the totally demonic signs, tokens, and "penalties" were practiced. Mormonism removed the penalties, but kept the demonic signs and tokens up to the time that I quit visiting CARM.

The forum has changed a few times since then, so I just re-registered recently. When I was a Mormon, I did a topical study where I catalogued certain topics found throughout the BoM, and eventually realized that many of the teachings in priesthood and Sunday school manuals, along with the teachings of Mormon leaders in the wards and nationally didn't agree with some the teachings in the BoM. Other Mormon standard works (eg. POGP) don't agree with the BoM either. The short of it is; that I soon came out of the perversions that Mormonism was attempting to impose on the true Gospel that the real Christ Jesus taught to His Apostles/Church, and that the gods and gospel of Mormonism was not a restoration, but a vile perversion, proven further by an appeal to early historical Christian writers.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
I have been on the forum before as desertscout and ken pasano and have been gone for a while. I came out of retirement to help during this covid crisis, plus it is winter and things are slow on the farm. I'm also an ex-Mormon who attended a Mormon temple during the time that the totally demonic signs, tokens, and "penalties" were practiced. Mormonism removed the penalties, but kept the demonic signs and tokens up to the time that I quit visiting CARM.

The forum has changed a few times since then, so I just re-registered recently. When I was a Mormon, I did a topical study where I catalogued certain topics found throughout the BoM, and eventually realized that many of the teachings in priesthood and Sunday school manuals, along with the teachings of Mormon leaders in the wards and nationally didn't agree with some the teachings in the BoM. Other Mormon standard works (eg. POGP) don't agree with the BoM either. The short of it is; that I soon came out of the perversions that Mormonism was attempting to impose on the true Gospel that the real Christ Jesus taught to His Apostles/Church, and that the gods and gospel of Mormonism was not a restoration, but a vile perversion, proven further by an appeal to early historical Christian writers.

Ah, desertscout. Nice to see you again.
 

John t

Super Member
Well, my, my....
Please accept apology... :rolleyes:

Your sarcastic roll eyes is EXACTLY what exasperates us Christians. No, it is not the emoticon that bothers us, so much as it is the lie you created when you deliberately bastardized Scripture TWICE.

Aaron32 said:
God tried walking with Adam, but he was too afraid (Genesis 3:8-10)
and again

Aaron32 said:

I said:

Paul preached foolishness to the Greeks (1 Cor 1:23).

Here is what is ACTUALLY in Scripture:

Genesis 3:
8 And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden.​
9 But the Lord God called to the man and said to him, “Where are you?”​
10 And he said, “I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself.”​
1 Corinthians 1:
22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom,​
23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles,​
24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.​

No, I am not calling you a name, but I am accurately describing what you created when you rendered the original words beyond recognition in order to give a false impression to support Mormonism.

Really Aaron32, how can you or anyone complain when it is y'all who deliberately distorts the words of Scripture to create a false statement? THAT is what is so exasperating, These are just 2 of the many posts in which y'all deliberately bastardize Scripture.

It seems as if what you neglect to understand is that when y'all do that sort of crap, and when we catch you, your credibility to be a source of any true statement is severely hampered.

Adam's sin caused him to hide from God.
Paul was addressing the Jews AND the Greeks
 
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