My interest in all this atheistic fuss over who wrote Matthew

[treeplanter]

In light of the fact that he's created you in his own likeness and image, giving you the freedom to choose life or death, has cared enough to give his own son to pay the penalty for your sin, indeed, took the full brunt of the brutality perpetrated against him to save you from experiencing the consequences of your sin, I'm thinking that it's time for you to stew in the misery of your choices and their consequences.

Nope, I will not praise one for putting my housefire out when it was this same one who set my house on fire to begin with

In light of the fact that it's been repeatedly explained to you that you have a choice of whether your life matters enough to you to choose life when it's been detailed what you're choosing, you get to decide what you want for yourself for your own eternity.

To think for one's self is integral to life, Steve
I choose to think for myself
I choose life

In light of the fact that he's explicitly stated that our lives are held in trust and will be revealed for the life he's creating for and in us, I think it's time for you to consider the magnitude of your sin and place as a recipient of the Grace and Mercy of God through Jesus Christ.

God does not own me
I own myself
And I have no interest in 'grace' and 'mercy' that is hingent upon relinquishing ownership of myself

He already has. He became a man and they killed him for it.

So, they were pretty clear that it was too much for them and it scared them.

Based on your ongoing arguments and posts, and the comments you've made before, I'd say that you have already shown your similar disgust for him.

Wrong, Steve!

Had God made Himself and His worth known to me then we wouldn't be having this conversation - I would be a Christian

In light of the fact that he created humans in his own likeness and image, giving us a choice, in this life, stating that he will save us to the uttermost, by coming to Jesus, I'm thinking that you need to live with the awareness of your choices, and their consequences.

You're simply reiterating what I have already said - that God denies us the opportunity to come to Him in the moment following death

If He truly valued and loved us and desired that we be with Him, then He wouldn't enforce an arbitrary deadline, Steve

Yep!

He went to hell so we don't have to.

Looks pretty important to me.

Rings hollow considering the FACT that it is He, and He alone, that decided that we have to go to Hell to begin with

 

[SteveB]

Nope, I will not praise one for putting my housefire out when it was this same one who set my house on fire to begin with


To think for one's self is integral to life, Steve
I choose to think for myself
I choose life


God does not own me
I own myself

You apparently don't read much.

Eze 18:4 WEB Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine. The soul who sins, he shall die.

Then, Jesus said,

Joh 8:34 WEB Jesus answered them, “Most certainly I tell you, everyone who commits sin is the bondservant of sin.

Looks pretty clear.

You're either owned by sin, or YHVH.

Even Paul notes the following.

Rom 6:16-21 WEB 16 Don’t you know that when you present yourselves as servants and obey someone, you are the servants of whomever you obey, whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, whereas you were bondservants of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were delivered. 18 Being made free from sin, you became bondservants of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh; for as you presented your members as servants to uncleanness and to wickedness upon wickedness, even so now present your members as servants to righteousness for sanctification. 20 For when you were servants of sin, you were free from righteousness. 21 What fruit then did you have at that time in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.

Something you really need to understand.

God holds our lives in his hands.

And I have no interest in 'grace' and 'mercy' that is hingent upon relinquishing ownership of myself

Well, that is your prerogative.

Jesus said that if you seek to save your life you will lose it. But if you lose your life for His sake, you will keep it to eternal life.
It'll never be lost when it's held in trust by God.

Wrong, Steve!

Had God made Himself and His worth known to me then we wouldn't be having this conversation - I would be a Christian

He already. You continue to blaspheme him . He'll continue to reach out to you for a time. But he's said that the day will come when he will let you go and live with the consequences of your sin and his wrath against sin.


Rom 1:18-30 WEB 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known of God is revealed in them, for God revealed it to them. 20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. 21 Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 and traded the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, four-footed animals, and creeping things. 24 Therefore God also gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves; 25 who exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason, God gave them up to vile passions. For their women changed the natural function into that which is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural function of the woman, burned in their lust toward one another, men doing what is inappropriate with men, and receiving in themselves the due penalty of their error. 28 Even as they refused to have God in their knowledge, God gave them up to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, malice; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil habits, secret slanderers, 30 backbiters, hateful to God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

Eph 4:17-19 WEB 17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 being darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardening of their hearts. 19 They, having become callous, gave themselves up to lust, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

This describes the magnitude of your self-destructiveness!

And yet he offers the following

God saves to the uttermost all who come to him through Jesus Christ, who ever lives to plead for us.

You're simply reiterating what I have already said - that God denies us the opportunity to come to Him in the moment following death

His creation his terms.
He's stated,

Without faith it's impossible to please him. He that comes to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who diligently seek him.

We're all in the same boat. His creation his terms!

If He truly valued and loved us and desired that we be with Him, then He wouldn't enforce an arbitrary deadline, Steve

He knows exactly the day and time of our death. There's nothing arbitrary about it!
Furthermore, we read in Ecclesiastes

Ecc 7:16-18 WEB 16 Don’t be overly righteous, neither make yourself overly wise. Why should you destroy yourself? 17 Don’t be too wicked, neither be foolish. Why should you die before your time? 18 It is good that you should take hold of this. Yes, also don’t withdraw your hand from that; for he who fears God will come out of them all.

Choose life and the fear of God.

Rings hollow considering the FACT that it is He, and He alone, that decided that we have to go to Hell to begin with

Actually, you're the one who makes that choice.

Deu 30:19 WEB I call heaven and earth to witness against you today that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. Therefore choose life, that you may live, you and your descendants,

Eze 18:31-32 WEB 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions in which you have transgressed; and make yourself a new heart and a new spirit. For why will you die, house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him who dies,” says the Lord Yahweh. “Therefore turn yourselves, and live!

YHVH is giving us the opportunity and the necessary resources to escape death, choose life and live forever in paradise!

Choose Life!
Live!
He takes no pleasure in the death of the ungodly!

 

[treeplanter]

You apparently don't read much.

Eze 18:4 WEB Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine. The soul who sins, he shall die.

Then, Jesus said,

Joh 8:34 WEB Jesus answered them, “Most certainly I tell you, everyone who commits sin is the bondservant of sin.

Looks pretty clear.

You're either owned by sin, or YHVH.

Even Paul notes the following.

Rom 6:16-21 WEB 16 Don’t you know that when you present yourselves as servants and obey someone, you are the servants of whomever you obey, whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, whereas you were bondservants of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were delivered. 18 Being made free from sin, you became bondservants of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh; for as you presented your members as servants to uncleanness and to wickedness upon wickedness, even so now present your members as servants to righteousness for sanctification. 20 For when you were servants of sin, you were free from righteousness. 21 What fruit then did you have at that time in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.

Something you really need to understand.

God holds our lives in his hands.

I don't care what scripture says, Steve

You quote it to me as if it's a fact, but it's not!

He certainly owns you, but He does not own me!!

He already. You continue to blaspheme him . He'll continue to reach out to you for a time. But he's said that the day will come when he will let you go and live with the consequences of your sin and his wrath against sin.

No, Steve, He most certainly DID NOT reveal Himself to me in a manner sufficient to convince me that He is both real and, more importantly, worthy of my devotion!

Like I said, if He had then we wouldn't be having this conversation because I, like you, would be a devout Christian

His creation his terms.

No duh, Steve

Obviously, it's His creation - His terms

My point is that His terms make clear that He does NOT consider us all that important

If He did, then He wouldn't turn us away because we came to Him a single second too late!

Actually, you're the one who makes that choice.

Wrong, Steve

It was God who decided, as a consequence of Adam and Eve's defiance, that not one single one of their descendants would ever be capable of living a sinless life

YHVH is giving us the opportunity and the necessary resources to escape death, choose life and live forever in paradise!

Nope - I cannot and will not offer praise for an opportunity to escape death when it is provided by the very one who consciously, purposefully, and needlessly inflicted death

 

[SteveB]

I don't care what scripture says, Steve

Your loss.

You quote it to me as if it's a fact, but it's not!

Actually it is!

YHVH's Word is Truth, and all his ways are right and just.

He certainly owns you, but He does not own me!!

I'm grateful he's thought me worth redeeming me from my sin.

There may come a day when you'll be begging him to.

No, Steve, He most certainly DID NOT reveal Himself to me in a manner sufficient to convince me that He is both real and, more importantly, worthy of my devotion!

That's a you thing.

He said that he's given us everything we need to know him, and live a life of godliness.

Like I said, if He had then we wouldn't be having this conversation because I, like you, would be a devout Christian

You're the only one who is excluding you from experiencing him.

No duh, Steve

Obviously, it's His creation - His terms

My point is that His terms make clear that He does NOT consider us all that important

And you're believing lies.
If he didn't actually think we were worth anything, Jesus never would have come to die for us and then rise from the dead.
He tells us that he has been given all authority and power in heaven and on earth. This means that everything we need to know him and God is given to us.

If He did, then He wouldn't turn us away because we came to Him a single second too late!

His creation his terms.
You're believing lies by thinking you have a right to define the terms.
This is known as pride and arrogance.
He stated that he resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

Wrong, Steve
It was God who decided, as a consequence of Adam and Eve's defiance, that not one single one of their descendants would ever be capable of living a sinless life

He warned then that they would die.
His creation his terms.

Nope - I cannot and will not offer praise for an opportunity to escape death when it is provided by the very one who consciously, purposefully, and needlessly inflicted death

Then you will perish. And you'll find out that you will remain cognizant and live with everlasting shame and contempt, regret, and the consequences for your sin and beliefs.

 

[The Pixie]

All you have to do is quote one. You stated: "Based on your expressly stated views, I'd say that you don't actually want to know the truth and will use whatever means you can find to justify your unbelief." If it is expressly stated, you should be able to find one quote when I state it. The fact that you cannot indicates you made it up.

No need to make it up. You have upwards of 4000 posts. Included in, and scattered across all those posts, you've made a series of statements that when combined together, create a worldview that I pieced together.

And yet you cannot quote just one when asked to do so.

Sure looks like you are making it up, Steve.

It's not that difficult to see if you're paying attention.

There is a difference between paying attention to what you say and blindly accepting that it is true.

I do the former, but not the latter. I very much suspect you cannot discern the difference.

Well, if you don't actually care about where you spend your eternity (the truth), then do as you please.

And again, you jump straight to your one argument, saying I should believe Christianity to maximise my chances of avoiding hell, rather than because it is true.

In other words, you don't actually care about the truth. You just resent being warned about what awaits you for not caring.

And again.

Truth is truth, regardless of how wearisome and tiring it seems to you.

Right. And why should I think the nonsense you are spouting is truth? Your only argument is that I will burn in hell if I do not blindly believe your assertions.

If you don't actually want to know the truth then I'll reiterate what I've stated several times before to several others...

Don't engage me.
Stop responding to my posts. Place me on ignore, or whatever you think will free you from experiencing the tiresomeness you clearly resent.

I do want to know the truth. And to determine that, I want you to tell me why you think your assertions are true. Why do you never do that, Steve?

My guess is that it is because they are not true. Given how much you warn about hell, it looks to me like the only reason you believe is that you are afraid of hell, not because you have an actual reason to think it is the truth. I strongly suspect a lot of Christians are the same. They are told from an early age that hell is real. To be blunt, they are conditioned to think hell is real and Christianity is true. Many seem to leave Christianity for a while, but they all come back to it because of the early conditioning.

It is no coincidence that the vast majority of Christians were raised as Christians from an early age, while Hindus were raised as Hindus and Muslims as Muslims. There is a very clear pattern that people adopt the religion they were raised in - regardless of whether it is true or not. The more I read of your posts the more convinced I am that that is the only reason you think Christianity is true is because the were raised to.

Because there comes a point when you have to decide for yourself if you're going to continue to argue about things that others have resolved, or just get down to the basics.

Around five billion people have have resolved the religion issue and decided Christianity is wrong. Are you going to continue to argue about that?

Let's do it this way. I actually have dealt with it. You're not satisfied with the answers given, you clearly refuse to engage the writers of the articles provided you, you are now demanding that I explain why they stated and view the topics as they are.
I'm not your lapdog. I'm not your errand boy. Where I come from, if something is of sufficient importance to me, I research it until I'm satisfied with the answers I've found.

Steve, you can do what you like. However, if you choose not to respond about the contradiction in Matthew then I - and I dare say a few others too - will continue to believe you never bothered to actually read the articles.

That is what the evidence points to - and part of that evidence is what you say here, which is clearly a desperate attempt to rationise not responding.

You however, indeed, several atheists here, and elsewhere, don't do this. They act entitled to others doing their job for them, and then get belligerent and rude when they don't get the answer they want.

It is not my job to resolve the contradiction in Matthew. This is how a debate works, Steve. I put forward the case that there is a contradiction, you put forward the case that there is not.

Of course you can choose to do so or not, but if you choose not to, then that leaves Christianity open to the accusation that the gospel accounts are not coherent.

I picked 3-4 articles. I then included the general Google search results I found, and stated that you are more than welcome to do your own research. I opened the door for you.

Did you read the articles? Or just post the first few results from Google, and assume they did what you wanted?

Act like an adult and follow through with your own research.

I am the one who read them, Steve.

Quit acting like a spoiled child who can't feed themselves.

I am the one who read them, Steve.

If you cannot be bothered, then do not respond. What you did was to present the façade of an argument - it had the appearance of addressing my post, but when I scratched beneath the surface, it turned out that that was not true. It looks very much like all you did was a quick Google search, and copy-and-paste a handful of links that you just assumed answered the issue.

I am not the spoiled child who cannot feed himself. I am the one who made the effort to read the articles, and then discuss what was written in them. Perhaps you should take a look in the mirror?

 

[treeplanter]

YHVH's Word is Truth, and all his ways are right and just.

Like when He told the Israelites that it was fine for them to own human beings as property?

He said that he's given us everything we need to know him, and live a life of godliness.

He hasn't given me what I need to know Him and live a life of godliness

If he didn't actually think we were worth anything, Jesus never would have come to die for us and then rise from the dead.

It's cute how you think that God did this for us
He did it for Himself, Steve!

Creation, salvation, the whole ball of wax - it's for HIS OWN GLORY!!

His creation his terms.

Yes, Steve - His creation, His terms
We've already been over this

You're believing lies by thinking you have a right to define the terms.

No, Steve - I do NOT think I have a right to define the terms
I do, however, have a right to pronounce moral judgement on the terms that God has defined and I find them {and Him} lacking

This is known as pride and arrogance.

No, Steve - this is known as the basic human standard of morality
One that you share, deep down, but suppress so as to fall in line with YHVH

Then you will perish. And you'll find out that you will remain cognizant and live with everlasting shame and contempt, regret, and the consequences for your sin and beliefs.

No, Steve - wrong again

I will NOT feel shame and regret

Should I find myself in Hell due my inability to love a being that I believe to be morally deficient
By the Hand of said being
I most certainly will NOT feel shame and regret
What I will feel is vindication

 

[SteveB]

Like when He told the Israelites that it was fine for them to own human beings as property?

Downright terrifying! Isn't it!
In light of the details of the sovereignty of God video I'd posted the other day, I'm not going to be bothered with this anymore. Aside from the fact that I've stated that several times before, you're just going to have to live with the awareness that your self-righteous outrage is only destroying you. Likewise for others who are outraged.
It took place long before our respective lives, and in my thinking, anyone stupid enough to use the ancient past to separate themselves from God in the eternal future gets what they want.

He hasn't given me what I need to know Him and live a life of godliness

He says otherwise.
So, seems pretty clear that you can indeed continue to believe yourself or believe Him, and then come learn of Jesus.

It's cute how you think that God did this for us
He did it for Himself, Steve!

And yet we who follow Jesus gain eternal life and all the benefits that come along with eternal life. Which are incredible to say the least.

I have no problem whatsoever with looking forward to, and enjoying His life, love, Fatherhood and joy forever....

Personally I think it's stupid to ignore what he's offering you.

Which is exactly what the bible says about it.

Scripture doesn’t limit its reasons against sin to “just because it’s wrong.” It also includes “because it’s stupid” since sin’s consequences are so severe. “For the simple are killed by their turning away, and the complacency of fools destroys them; but whoever listens to me will dwell secure and will be at ease, without dread of disaster” (Proverbs 1:32-33, ESV).

Creation, salvation, the whole ball of wax - it's for HIS OWN GLORY!!

And everyone who comes to Jesus gets to enjoy it for eternity.

There's an ancient psalm that discusses this issue.

While the whole thing is really cool, there's one verse that I really like.

Psa 50:15 WEB Call on me in the day of trouble. I will deliver you, and you will honor me.”

As I've considered this passage, I've come to realize that I have no problem whatsoever with honoring God for helping me in my days of troubles!

Why anyone would be resentful about giving thanks to someone who helps them is beyond me.

So, if God is glorified by all he does for me, I'm good! I'll even spend my days telling others about the great things he's done for me and on my behalf!

Yes, Steve - His creation, His terms
We've already been over this

And yet you're still crying because you can't live as you please, without experiencing the consequences for your choices.

No, Steve - I do NOT think I have a right to define the terms
I do, however, have a right to pronounce moral judgement on the terms that God has defined and I find them {and Him} lacking

Sounds like you're complaining that you can't define the terms.

No, Steve - this is known as the basic human standard of morality
One that you share, deep down, but suppress so as to fall in line with YHVH

Rather curious how human morality changes with the desires, and conveniences, and whims of the practitioners.

In nazi Germany during the 30's and 40's, it was acceptable to murder Jewish people, gays, gypsies, and disabled people.

Throughout history, the world over, it's been acceptable to enslave people. In the world today, somewhere between 27 and 45 million people are slaves. Women are sex slaves, children are slave labor, and adult males are also slaves.

I further find it curious that sexual immorality has been legalized and there's a big ruckus over grooming children for the LGBTQ community.

Then murder of the unborn children has been legalized.

All kinds of criminal activity has been legitimized due to popularity. Countless riots, and destruction of private and public property have occurred with no recourse to recover the losses.



Real interesting how human morality works.

You'll have to start a thread, dedicated entirely to the explanation of human morality.

No, Steve - wrong again

I will NOT feel shame and regret

Should I find myself in Hell due my inability to love a being that I believe to be morally deficient
By the Hand of said being
I most certainly will NOT feel shame and regret
What I will feel is vindication

I'm quite confident that you actually believe that.

The kind of pain that fire inflicts has a rather unique effect of changing one's ego as it digs deeper into the psyche of the human.

 

[SteveB]

And yet you cannot quote just one when asked to do so.

Sure looks like you are making it up, Steve.


There is a difference between paying attention to what you say and blindly accepting that it is true.

Sure looks like you're not paying attention.
And since you continue to use the justification for your ongoing attempts at making arguments, and ignorance, I'm thinking that you have already chosen to refuse to engage him yourself.

You have upwards of 4000 posts. Included in, and scattered across all those posts, you've made a series of statements that when combined together, create a worldview that I pieced together.

This is not an argument that is going to be won by you. That you have spent several years seeking to justify yourself, and twist a knotted, and rambling conversation which is a simple- either do what Jesus said and find out for yourself or not, and remain ignorant, makes it quite clear that you don't actually want to know the truth!

The only thing that you have achieved here is forestall learning the truth.

I do the former, but not the latter. I very much suspect you cannot discern the difference.

Actually that's exactly what you have done, and been doing for several years now.
Aside from not wanting to learn that you have perished, come eternity, what you want for your life is entirely up to you.

And again, you jump straight to your one argument, saying I should believe Christianity to maximise my chances of avoiding hell, rather than because it is true.


And again.


Right. And why should I think the nonsense you are spouting is truth? Your only argument is that I will burn in hell if I do not blindly believe your assertions.

You have an astonishing practice of jumping through your bgg own arguments and utterly ignoring everything I say that details what you claim that you want..
It's like you are utterly blinded by your own beliefs and assumptions, while demanding that I give you what YHVH himself says he will give you.

I do want to know the truth. And to determine that, I want you to tell me why you think your assertions are true. Why do you never do that, Steve?

then
do
what
Jesus
said
to
do
and
he
will
make
himself
known
to
you

i can't make the letters any larger.
so, if that's not clear enough for you, you have a serious reading comprehension problem that I cannot help you with.

My guess is that it is because they are not true.

Your guess..... meaning your beliefs, your assumptions, your biases, your preconceptions.

Congratulations Pixie! You have just demonstrated that you are completely biased against the truth and the only thing you want is to argue.

I couldn't have done a better job than you just demonstrated!

Given how much you warn about hell, it looks to me like the only reason you believe is that you are afraid of hell, not because you have an actual reason to think it is the truth. I strongly suspect a lot of Christians are the same. They are told from an early age that hell is real. To be blunt, they are conditioned to think hell is real and Christianity is true. Many seem to leave Christianity for a while, but they all come back to it because of the early conditioning.

It looks
I strongly suspect
Many seem

These are all bias, preconception, assumption terms Pixie.

For someone who claims to be objective, you're continuing to be filled to the hilt with biases, and preconceptions about something you claim to have no knowledge of.

This is exactly the problem.

You want to know where you have stated the things I mentioned above...

Right here, in this post!

It is no coincidence that the vast majority of Christians were raised as Christians from an early age, while Hindus were raised as Hindus and Muslims as Muslims. There is a very clear pattern that people adopt the religion they were raised in - regardless of whether it is true or not. The more I read of your posts the more convinced I am that that is the only reason you think Christianity is true is because the were raised to.

Oh, well then! ??‍?

Since Jesus said that the vast majority of people were going to take the broad road that leads to destruction, I guess you have just found your justification to throw in God's face for why you refused to take him seriously enough for him to engage you.
Congratulations! You're doing a bang up job of demonstrating that you don't actually want to know the truth.

Do you think that you'll ever come to the point where you'll stop giving yourself excuses to avoid Jesus?

Or, are you just going to continue doing this?

Around five billion people have have resolved the religion issue and decided Christianity is wrong. Are you going to continue to argue about that?

I'm not arguing about this.
Jesus was pretty clear about this exact situation.

Mat 7:13-14 WEB 13 “Enter in by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter in by it. 14 How narrow is the gate and the way is restricted that leads to life! There are few who find it.


Luk 13:24-27 WEB 24 “Strive to enter in by the narrow door, for many, I tell you, will seek to enter in and will not be able. 25 When once the master of the house has risen up and has shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ then he will answer and tell you, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 He will say, ‘I tell you, I don’t know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of iniquity.’

So.... do you actually think that you pointing out that the mass majority didn't think that Jesus was the truth is going to help you, when he said that?

I'm thinking that when you tell him that on judgment day, he's going to respond, yeah? And? As the words he spoke echo through the gallery of eternity?

He did say that he won't be judging you. But the words he spoke will.

Joh 12:48 WEB He who rejects me, and doesn’t receive my sayings, has one who judges him. The word that I spoke will judge him in the last day.

So, you go right ahead and keep that. I'm sure that he'll give you exactly what you want.
After all, why would he force you to spend your eternity in a place where everyone who has come actually wants to live with him, and live in a manner that honors him?
???‍

Steve, you can do what you like. However, if you choose not to respond about the contradiction in Matthew then I - and I dare say a few others too - will continue to believe you never bothered to actually read the articles.

I already have!

You're more than welcome to continue to do your own research. Since you have claimed that the majority of bible scholars agree with you, and the majority of people agree with you, and Jesus said that the majority of people are going to perish, I'd say that you are not in a good position.

But, it's not like you have any idea of how accurate your perspectives are. Eternity is a long time to live with the awareness that you screwed the pooch! And since the pooch won't actually be there with you, you actually only screwed yourself.

 

[SteveB]

That is what the evidence points to - and part of that evidence is what you say here, which is clearly a desperate attempt to rationise not responding.


It is not my job to resolve the contradiction in Matthew. This is how a debate works, Steve. I put forward the case that there is a contradiction, you put forward the case that there is not.

"That's not how debate works...."
?
Further demonstrating that you have not been paying a lick of attention to what I've been repeatedly saying for the past 9-1/2 years now! ??‍

Your decision to follow Jesus or not is not, nor ever has been and never will be a debate! Not, and never will be.

You hear the gospel of Jesus and then decide whether you want to know him or not.

It's that simple.

If not, then you are given the description of the consequences and that's it!

Of course you can choose to do so or not, but if you choose not to, then that leaves Christianity open to the accusation that the gospel accounts are not coherent.

Well, considering that far more educated people than either you or I have previously resolved this accusation, I'm thinking that you have to decide whose testimony you're going to continue to believe?

People who don't want to know the truth and think that it's a philosophical construct they can disassemble, or perhaps the people who have known YHVH and Jesus and have actually worked through the process already....

I encourage you to consider the latter, rather than the former. It'd be a pity to see you in a long line of people who thought they could successfully deconstruct YHVH, simply because they rejected the truth.

Did you read the articles?

Yep!

Or just post the first few results from Google, and assume they did what you wanted?

Let me guess....
Another one of those things that seem, you guess, and it's likely, just because it fits your biases...

I am the one who read them, Steve.

And?

I am the one who read them, Steve.

And?

If you cannot be bothered, then do not respond. What you did was to present the façade of an argument - it had the appearance of addressing my post, but when I scratched beneath the surface, it turned out that that was not true. It looks very much like all you did was a quick Google search, and copy-and-paste a handful of links that you just assumed answered the issue.

Seems like you have shown up for a gun fight when I simply stated that you can meet a friend of mine.

I am not the spoiled child who cannot feed himself. I am the one who made the effort to read the articles, and then discuss what was written in them. Perhaps you should take a look in the mirror?

I'm glad you read the articles. Learning is good.

I find it curious that you actually think that those are the sum total of all the information that exists on this planet.

But, that's right! You're the guy who has decided that just as long as the majority agree with you and the majority think that it's all wrong, you'll be safe and secure come judgment day.

After all, it's not like Jesus didn't actually say anything about majority and minority.

Mat 7:13-14 WEB 13 “Enter in by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter in by it. 14 How narrow is the gate and the way is restricted that leads to life! There are few who find it.

Joh 12:48 WEB He who rejects me, and doesn’t receive my sayings, has one who judges him. The word that I spoke will judge him in the last day.

You can put your guns, knives, whips, arguments, debates, etc. back in your drawers, etc...

This is simply an invitation to make acquaintance with a friend who sticks closer than a brother and is THE Great Savior!

 

[The Pixie]

Sure looks like you're not paying attention.

I just do not believe you. You fail to see the difference.

And since you continue to use the justification for your ongoing attempts at making arguments, and ignorance, I'm thinking that you have already chosen to refuse to engage him yourself.

I am not going to engage with a mystical entity that I do not believe exists.

You have upwards of 4000 posts. Included in, and scattered across all those posts, you've made a series of statements that when combined together, create a worldview that I pieced together.

You said, post #131:

"Based on your expressly stated views, I'd say that you don't actually want to know the truth and will use whatever means you can find to justify your unbelief."​

Turns out that was not true. It were no "expressly stated views", but what you (erroneously) inferred from my posts.

Now explain to me why I should believe anything you say about God when I know you make stuff up about me?

You have proven to me that you are wrong about things, and when you are wrong you have no problem making things up to make it appear that you are right. I do not doubt that you honestly think that is my view, just as I do not doubt that the gospel writers honestly thought Jesus was resurrected. But I also think it very likely the gospel writers would just make stuff up to support their beliefs, exactly as you have been caught doing here.

ETA: I also feel pretty confident predicting that your pride is too big for you to admit you were wrong, despite your numerous claims about pride ("This is known as pride and arrogance").

 

[SteveB]

I just do not believe you. You fail to see the difference.

Nope. I understand the difference between unbelief and not understanding. I'm ok with you not believing me. Which is exactly why I keep saying that you need to do what Jesus said.
I didn't believe the people who were talking to me back then either.
It wasn't until I engaged God and Jesus that my opinion, therefore my belief in Jesus, changed.

This is not about winning a debate or argument. Quite frankly I'd prefer you stop trying to win arguments and simply engage him. That's it. Nothing more or less.

I am not going to engage with a mystical entity that I do not believe exists.

No. You don't want to know the truth about Jesus, so you refuse to engage him. Very well then.
No amount of arguing about it is going to twist your arm. You either want to know him or not. Because he says he is interested in knowing you. He said he wants to give you eternal life.

You said, post #131:

"Based on your expressly stated views, I'd say that you don't actually want to know the truth and will use whatever means you can find to justify your unbelief."​

Turns out that was not true. It were no "expressly stated views", but what you (erroneously) inferred from my posts.

Now explain to me why I should believe anything you say about God when I know you make stuff up about me?

I don't need you to believe anything I say about you or God.
What I've stated regarding your comments is true, and contained within the body of your posts.
You need to know for yourself whether anything I've stated regarding God is true or not.
Especially in light of the fact that they've been clearly stated throughout the bible, and have been in the bible for millennia and are easily corroborated simply by reading the bible for yourself.

You have proven to me that you are wrong about things, and when you are wrong you have no problem making things up to make it appear that you are right. I do not doubt that you honestly think that is my view, just as I do not doubt that the gospel writers honestly thought Jesus was resurrected. But I also think it very likely the gospel writers would just make stuff up to support their beliefs, exactly as you have been caught doing here.

ETA: I also feel pretty confident predicting that your pride is too big for you to admit you were wrong, despite your numerous claims about pride ("This is known as pride and arrogance").

It's your eternity.
You do what you want.
Blaming others for your beliefs isn't going to justify you though.

 

[The Pixie]

Nope. I understand the difference between unbelief and not understanding. I'm ok with you not believing me. Which is exactly why I keep saying that you need to do what Jesus said.

Why would I do that if I do not believe you? You say you understand the difference, but your very next sentence indicates you do not.

I didn't believe the people who were talking to me back then either.
It wasn't until I engaged God and Jesus that my opinion, therefore my belief in Jesus, changed.

Why did you engage with an entity you did not think exists? Have you ever tried to engage with fairies? How about the Hindu gods? Of course not!

The simple fact is that you were conditioned to believe Christianity is true from an early age, and that is why, in later life, you "engaged God and Jesus".

This is not about winning a debate or argument. Quite frankly I'd prefer you stop trying to win arguments and simply engage him. That's it. Nothing more or less.

And I would prefer you to say why I should think he exists. An argument not based on the assumption that Christianity is true and hell exists. But we both know that will never happen.

No. You don't want to know the truth about Jesus, so you refuse to engage him. Very well then.

You keep saying I do not want to know the truth, and yet nearly every post I ask you to give evidence to support your opinion.

I do want to know the truth. However, I am not about to take your opinion as truth until you present evidence to back up your opinion.

No amount of arguing about it is going to twist your arm. You either want to know him or not. Because he says he is interested in knowing you. He said he wants to give you eternal life.

Thus you excuse yourself presenting evidence. And the reason you do that is you know you have nothing.

I don't need you to believe anything I say about you or God.
What I've stated regarding your comments is true, and contained within the body of your posts.

You claimed I had "expressed stated" it, and that was not true. You got caught saying something that is not true, and rather than apologise, you try to rationalise it away. Exactly as predicted, I might note.

You need to know for yourself whether anything I've stated regarding God is true or not.

Sure. And given the facts - you can present zero evidence and you make stuff up - I conclude it is not true.

 

[SteveB]

Why would I do that if I do not believe you? You say you understand the difference, but your very next sentence indicates you do not.

Clearly missed what I stated.
You're the one who keeps claiming that you want to know the truth.
If this was true, then you would have already been investigating Jesus for yourself.
The fact you haven't is demonstration that you're not actually interested in knowing the truth at all.

Why did you engage with an entity you did not think exists?

Simple curiosity.
I was done talking with people who didn't know. People who had a whole lot of different ideas.

Have you ever tried to engage with fairies? How about the Hindu gods? Of course not!

How do you know I didn't?
How do you know that I found them to not be real?

For someone who claims to care about the truth you have a whole lot of preconceptions and assumptions.

The simple fact is that you were conditioned to believe Christianity is true from an early age, and that is why, in later life, you "engaged God and Jesus".

Sounds like you're afraid of the truth, and will do whatever you think will help justify yourself.
It's your life to do whatever you want with it.
If you're going to continue to argue about it, you're

And I would prefer you to say why I should think he exists.

I've spent the past 45 years learning what it means to know him.
I've found him dependable, faithful, true to his Word, compassionate, full of tender mercies, but he doesn't let us get away with our BS. He is a God of Hope, Encouragement, He's never quit, or given up on me. In my darkest and most despair filled times, he's been there, when nobody else was (and over the course of several years, there was plenty, because of my cancer). He doesn't let me give up on myself, but encourages me to continue.

His name is- I AM that I AM, or YHVH.
What we need, when we need it, He IS.

He is Wholeness, Completeness, Righteousness, Truth, Justice, Mercy, Integrity, One of a Kind of which there can be no other.

An argument not based on the assumption that Christianity is true and hell exists. But we both know that will never happen.

Nor can it be based on the assumption that what you think you know is everything.
I didn't know. I know what other people told me.

Buddhists, Baha'I, Islam, Hindu, etc....

After years of being told what I should believe, I chose to learn for myself.

I guarantee that atheists have no clue.
Nor does anyone else.

Jesus is the only one who has explicitly stated that what is impossible for humans is not a problem for YHVH.

So, if you're going to claim that arguments can't be based on assumptions, then stop doing it! Because you are full of assumptions and have been for several years now.

You keep saying I do not want to know the truth, and yet nearly every post I ask you to give evidence to support your opinion.

Your actions and posts are my evidence that you don't actually want to know the truth.
Otherwise, you would have already come to Jesus and we'd be having a completely different conversation.

Jesus made it quite clear.

Joh 3:19-21 WEB 19 This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light, for their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the light and doesn’t come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God.”

Those who do the truth comes to the light that their lives may be shown to be lives lived in God.

Eph 5:13 WEB But all things, when they are reproved, are revealed by the light, for everything that reveals is light.

Joh 1:1-5 WEB 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him. Without him, nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness hasn’t overcome it.

Jesus is the light of the world, and in coming to him, we show that we love the truth and are willing to have him show us who we really are.

I do want to know the truth. However, I am not about to take your opinion as truth until you present evidence to back up your opinion.

Not once have I ever asked you to take my word for it.
More importantly, no follower of Jesus would ever demand you take their word for it.

They, we will always tell you that you have to do what Jesus said for yourself in order for you to know for yourself.

It's the entire basis of biblical christianity.

Thus you excuse yourself presenting evidence. And the reason you do that is you know you have nothing.

Not at all. You've been given evidence for years now and none of it has changed your mind. This is also why I say that you don't actually want to know the truth.
Otherwise, you would have already dealt with it instead of sitting there arguing about things you don't actually want to know.

YHVH was crystal clear about this.

Jeremiah 24:7 WEB I will give them a heart to know me, that I am Yahweh. They will be my people, and I will be their God; for they will return to me with their whole heart.

In John 17:3, Jesus said that eternal life is to know God, and Jesus.

You claimed I had "expressed stated" it, and that was not true. You got caught saying something that is not true, and rather than apologise, you try to rationalise it away. Exactly as predicted, I might note.

Joh 3:19-21 WEB 19 This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light, for their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the light and doesn’t come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God.”

I disagree. You have expressly stated.
Your actions have expressly stated. Your ongoing twisting of what I've been saying for years have expressly stated.

You continue to argue that I'm telling you that you have to take my word, when I have never stated any such thing!
I've repeatedly given you everything you need to know how to do what Jesus said himself.
But you keep claiming that I'm demanding you take my word.

Thus, you have repeatedly, explicitly stated...

Sure. And given the facts - you can present zero evidence and you make stuff up - I conclude it is not true.

You really are a dense human being.

You claim to want to know the truth.
You claim you shouldn't have to take my word for it.
You then claim that you want me to give you evidence....

I would so love to be able to slap the stupid out of you at this moment.

You're a hypocrite!
You don't want to take my word, but you want me to tell you what to think...
??‍?

Let me know when you wake up and see the clear fraud you're promoting here.

If I wanted to know for myself, and i didn't want to take your word for something, the last thing I'd say is to ask you for evidence.

I'd be digging further myself!

 

[The Pixie]

Clearly missed what I stated.
You're the one who keeps claiming that you want to know the truth.
If this was true, then you would have already been investigating Jesus for yourself.
The fact you haven't is demonstration that you're not actually interested in knowing the truth at all.

The fact is that I have investigated Jesus. I routinely come to CARM to read why Christians believe in Jesus. The only reasons I can see are all based on the assumption the Bible is true. Certainly nothing you offer.

Besides that, I have read much of the Bible, the NT especially, and books about early Christianity and especially the first Easter.

What I have not done is blindly assumed it is true, and worked from there, which is what you seem to expect.

Simple curiosity.
I was done talking with people who didn't know. People who had a whole lot of different ideas.

How do you know I didn't?
How do you know that I found them to not be real?

For someone who claims to care about the truth you have a whole lot of preconceptions and assumptions.

We all do, Steve. You are utterly certain Christianity is true. That is a whole lot of preconceptions and assumptions. Do you want to know the truth? I guess not.

I try to approach these things with an open mind, but you give me nothing to work with. You have absolutely zero evidence or reasoning to support your position, just warning of hell and Bible verses - i.e., arguments that assume Christianity is true.

 

[SteveB]

The fact is that I have investigated Jesus. I routinely come to CARM to read why Christians believe in Jesus. The only reasons I can see are all based on the assumption the Bible is true. Certainly nothing you offer.

??‍?
Coming to CARM internet forum is not investigating Jesus.
That you actually think it is raises serious questions about your beliefs and assumptions about life.

Investigation into Jesus is engaging in study of the bible and talking to Jesus himself and letting him engage you.

Besides that, I have read much of the Bible, the NT especially, and books about early Christianity and especially the first Easter.

Read much of the bible....
From what you've said before, you've read more about what others think about what they've read about the bible than the bible itself.
From what you've said, your entire view on the bible is based entirely on what others think, instead of dealing with it yourself.

What I have not done is blindly assumed it is true, and worked from there, which is what you seem to expect.

Ironically, you have spent years telling everyone who comes to Jesus and follows Jesus that they have in fact blindly assumed that the bible is true....

I find it curious that you and you alone (and of course atheists) are somehow immune to assumptions about the bible, solely because you have read books by people who have made assumptions about the bible and have chosen to not believe the bible, but instead have found what they think are justified reasons why they shouldn't believe the bible.... but in fact are just excuses to retain their ignorance of God and Jesus. Zero knowledge of God and Jesus.

We all do, Steve. You are utterly certain Christianity is true.

Nope. Not christianity.
Jesus.
There's 1925 years of christianity that I don't believe at all.
Well, ok. 1600 years. Mostly the roman/Vatican part of it. I've never bothered learning about the Coptic, Eastern Orthodox or other parts.

That is a whole lot of preconceptions and assumptions.

Wow, if ever there was a lot of preconceptions and assumptions about what I know, and why I know it, you have just epitomized it!

Thank you for clarifying your own bias and preconceptions about what I actually know and believe.

Definitely makes me wonder how you know anything that you think you know.

Did you gain that knowledge by engagement in hands on activities or just reading what others think?

My knowledge... gained by hands on activities.

Do you want to know the truth? I guess not.

Well, considering that you have repeatedly stated that you only want to know what others think, instead of gaining knowledge and understanding for yourself, I suppose that would be your own bias and assumption.

I try to approach these things with an open mind, but you give me nothing to work with.

Sure I have.
You're saying that you don't actually want to know for yourself. You'd rather others tell you what to think, instead of learning how to think so you can engage YHVH for yourself.

Everything you need to know in order to make his acquaintance is found in the bible.
More specifically the gospels. But Romans is also a great place to start.
Granted, those first few chapters bite hard at the ego. They are important though. They explain why Jesus came in the first place.

You have absolutely zero evidence or reasoning to support your position, just warning of hell and Bible verses - i.e., arguments that assume Christianity is true.

Gee, sounds like a series of assumptions from what you've said.

For someone who claims to be innocent of assumptions and preconceptions, you sure have a lot of them.

I don't waste your time with arguments others have given you because it's clear they're not convincing you.

Therefore, I do what I was taught in my physics program.

When you get lost, go back to first principles!

First principles with regard to Jesus is the basic gospel.

Turn to YHVH from your sin and place your trust in Jesus Christ.

When you deal with that, then we can move forward with weightier ideas.

As is written in 1 Corinthians 2

1Co 2:4-16 WEB 4 My speech and my preaching were not in persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith wouldn’t stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. 6 We speak wisdom, however, among those who are full grown, yet a wisdom not of this world nor of the rulers of this world who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the wisdom that has been hidden, which God foreordained before the worlds for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this world has known. For had they known it, they wouldn’t have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written, “Things which an eye didn’t see, and an ear didn’t hear, which didn’t enter into the heart of man, these God has prepared for those who love him.” 10 But to us, God revealed them through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For who among men knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so, no one knows the things of God except God’s Spirit. 12 But we received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might know the things that were freely given to us by God. 13 We also speak these things, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual things. 14 Now the natural man doesn’t receive the things of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to him; and he can’t know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual discerns all things, and he himself is to be judged by no one. 16 “For who has known the mind of the Lord that he should instruct him?” But we have Christ’s mind.

So, deal with the first principles. Then, as a bricklayer, who is building a wall, once you have laid the foundation of the wall, we can continue to build...

Line upon line, precept upon precept. Here a little, there a little. Line upon line.

 

[The Pixie]

Coming to CARM internet forum is not investigating Jesus.

It is one way I investigate the claims of Christianity.

I can see first hand what being a Christian is all about. Why do Christians believe in Christianity?

How far do they follow what Jesus actually said? How far do they follow the principles they claim to uphold? A good example of that is pride; Christians round here often rail against pride, and yet their posts come across as very arrogant and they seem utterly unable to admit they are wrong to an atheist. I will acknowledge that I have pride too, but I do not consider that a sin. Sad to say, but I see a lot of hypocrisy in Christians on CARM, which is odd given how Jesus railed against hypocrisy.

At the ends of the day, I have to wonder why I should follow the Bible when so few Christians round here do so.

That you actually think it is raises serious questions about your beliefs and assumptions about life.

Really? So you keep insisting on CARM that I follow Jesus... And now yoy are telling me that listening to what people on CARM is a bad idea!

Did you think this through, Steve?

Investigation into Jesus is engaging in study of the bible and talking to Jesus himself and letting him engage you.

Investigating Jesus involves establishing if he is still alive BEFORE talking to him.

Jesus died 2000 years ago, and no one seems able to give me a reason to think he ever got over it.

Read much of the bible....
From what you've said before, you've read more about what others think about what they've read about the bible than the bible itself.

That is quite possible. I have undoubtedly read more science fiction that both put together. That does not mean I have not investigated theclaims of Christianity.

From what you've said, your entire view on the bible is based entirely on what others think, instead of dealing with it yourself.

Wrong Steve.

You have been told to think that about atheists, so when you interact with them, you assume that is true.

Ironically, you have spent years telling everyone who comes to Jesus and follows Jesus that they have in fact blindly assumed that the bible is true....

Nothing ironic about it. Where you brought up in a Christian family Steve?

It is a simple fact that the vast majority of theists adopt the religion they were raised in. If raised a Christian, they become Christian, if raised Hindu, they become Hindu. The only way that can be explained is that early childhood conditioning is more important in determining a person's religion that whether the religion is true.

We both agree Hinduism is wrong, and yet those Hindus are just as sure they are right as you are. And for exactly the same reason - they were conditioned to a kids.

If you want me to think otherwise, give me a good reason to think Christianity is true. A good reason being one that is not based on the assumption that Christianity is true.

 

[stiggy wiggy]

At the ends of the day, I have to wonder why I should follow the Bible when so few Christians round here do so.

"Follow the Bible?" Is it mobile?

 

[The Pixie]

"Follow the Bible?" Is it mobile?

I means to adhere to the principles expressed in the Bible. It is quite a common phrase, so kind of odd you are not familiar with it.

Or rather, it is kind of odd you want to pretend you are not familiar with it,

 

[stiggy wiggy]

I means to adhere to the principles expressed in the Bible.

I'se glad you means to do dat, what wif you bein' an atheist and all.

 

[Furion]

It is quite a common phrase, so kind of odd you are not familiar with it.

Me been round long time, never heard it.

How about this one?

As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

That's better...