My Methodist Church is leaving the denomination in one week.

Algernon

Active member
Standing up for biblical truth can often be viewed as bigotry and all kinds of other false labeling by those opposed to the idea of truth. In the day in which we live now, I'm sure Jesus would have been labeled "intolerant" at the least - Probably "racist" since that's term rampantly in vogue.
When scripture is cited to further racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, etc,, it is by weaponizing the words of those other than Jesus or by taking Jesus' words out of context. What leads you to believe that Jesus would be seen as a bigot? Just to you make you feel more secure about your own views?

What you stand up for be "biblical", but it isn't about "truth". The words spoken by Jesus while preaching His gospel were about truth.
 
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imJRR

Well-known member
When scripture is cited to further racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, etc,, it is by weaponizing the words of those other than Jesus or by taking Jesus' words out of context. What leads you to believe that Jesus would be seen as a bigot? Just to you make you feel more secure about your own views?

What you stand up for be "biblical", but it isn't about "truth". The words spoken by Jesus while preaching His gospel were about truth.

(shrug) If you wish to hint, suggest, imply, or even accuse me of any of the isms or phobias you listed, that's your choice. You'd be very wrong about that, but it's your choice. The fact, reality and truth is - You don't know me well enough at all to have ANY idea what I stand up for and what I don't, and any presuming about me personally and whatever views I have is both off-topic and not something that is to be engaged in on the forums. I have not cited any Scripture to further any of the isms or phobias you refer to, nor would I. The wording of your post definitely comes off as someone looking for a fight with someone. That is not what this board is for - It is for issues. If you persist in making personal remarks, the moderators will be notified. Up to you where and how things go from here.
 

Algernon

Active member
(shrug) If you wish to hint, suggest, imply, or even accuse me of any of the isms or phobias you listed, that's your choice. You'd be very wrong about that, but it's your choice. The fact, reality and truth is - You don't know me well enough at all to have ANY idea what I stand up for and what I don't, and any presuming about me personally and whatever views I have is both off-topic and not something that is to be engaged in on the forums. I have not cited any Scripture to further any of the isms or phobias you refer to, nor would I. The wording of your post definitely comes off as someone looking for a fight with someone. That is not what this board is for - It is for issues. If you persist in making personal remarks, the moderators will be notified. Up to you where and how things go from here.
(shrug) I didn't "accuse" you of anything. I simply responded to the content of your post as you responded to the content of mine.

This board IS for discussing "issues". That "many use the Bible as a weapon in furthering their own bigotry be it racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia or what have you" IS an "issue". If you didn't want to discuss this "issue", then you should not have responded with a defense of it.
 

John t

Super Member
Next week our First United Methodist church body is having a congregation meeting and will leave the denomination as it has failed to bring the denomination back into its original holiness. This is over the sexual perversion of gay bishops.

How will you handle the rescission clause in the UMC Discipline?

All your church property will revert to the annual convention, and the Discipline says that that clause is irrevocable

.

Book of Discipline: ¶ 2501. Requirement of Trust Clause for All Property​


The Book of Discipline of The United Methodist Church -- 2016







¶ 2501. Requirement of the Trust Clause for All Property-1. All properties of United Methodist local churches and other United Methodist agencies and institutions are held, in trust, for the benefit of the entire denomination, and ownership and usage of church property is subject to the Discipline. This trust requirement is an essential element of the historic polity of The United Methodist Church or its predecessor denominations or communions and has been a part of the Discipline since 1797. It reflects the connectional structure of the Church by ensuring that the property will be used solely for purposes consonant with the mission of the entire denomination as set forth in the Discipline. The trust requirement is thus a fundamental expression of United Methodism whereby local churches and other agencies and institutions within the denomination are both held accountable to and benefit from their connection with the entire worldwide Church.

In consonance with the legal definition and self-understanding of The United Methodist Church (see ¶ 141), and with particular reference to its lack of capacity to hold title to property, The United Methodist Church is organized as a connectional structure, and titles to all real and personal, tangible and intangible property held at jurisdictional, annual, or district conference levels, or by a local church or charge, or by an agency or institution of the Church, shall be held in trust for The United Methodist Church and subject to the provisions of its Discipline. Titles are not held by The United Methodist Church (see ¶ 807.1) or by the General Conference of The United Methodist Church, but instead by the incorporated conferences, agencies, or organizations of the denomination, or in the case of unincorporated bodies of the denomination, by boards of trustees established for the purpose of holding and administering real and personal, tangible and intangible property.





¶ 2501. Requirement of the Trust Clause for All Property-1. All properties of United Methodist local churches and other United Methodist agencies and institutions are held, in trust, for the benefit of the entire denomination, and ownership and usage of church property is subject to the Discipline. This trust requirement is an essential element of the historic polity of The United Methodist Church or its predecessor denominations or communions and has been a part of the Discipline since 1797. It reflects the connectional structure of the Church by ensuring that the property will be used solely for purposes consonant with the mission of the entire denomination as set forth in the Discipline. The trust requirement is thus a fundamental expression of United Methodism whereby local churches and other agencies and institutions within the denomination are both held accountable to and benefit from their connection with the entire worldwide Church.

In consonance with the legal definition and self-understanding of The United Methodist Church (see ¶ 141), and with particular reference to its lack of capacity to hold title to property, The United Methodist Church is organized as a connectional structure, and titles to all real and personal, tangible and intangible property held at jurisdictional, annual, or district conference levels, or by a local church or charge, or by an agency or institution of the Church, shall be held in trust for The United Methodist Church and subject to the provisions of its Discipline. Titles are not held by The United Methodist Church (see ¶ 807.1) or by the General Conference of The United Methodist Church, but instead by the incorporated conferences, agencies, or organizations of the denomination, or in the case of unincorporated bodies of the denomination, by boards of trustees established for the purpose of holding and administering real and personal, tangible and intangible property.

PS (and no snark meant) but could you really expect anything different from a denomination which has the motto "Open hearts, open minds and open doors"?
 

imJRR

Well-known member
(shrug) I didn't "accuse" you of anything. I simply responded to the content of your post as you responded to the content of mine.

This board IS for discussing "issues". That "many use the Bible as a weapon in furthering their own bigotry be it racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia or what have you" IS an "issue". If you didn't want to discuss this "issue", then you should not have responded with a defense of it.

LOL! Your post shows a completely out of control imagination. A calm and honest reading shows no defense at all on my part of any of your isms and phobias.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
How will you handle the rescission clause in the UMC Discipline?

All your church property will revert to the annual convention, and the Discipline says that that clause is irrevocable

.

Book of Discipline: ¶ 2501. Requirement of Trust Clause for All Property​


The Book of Discipline of The United Methodist Church -- 2016







¶ 2501. Requirement of the Trust Clause for All Property-1. All properties of United Methodist local churches and other United Methodist agencies and institutions are held, in trust, for the benefit of the entire denomination, and ownership and usage of church property is subject to the Discipline. This trust requirement is an essential element of the historic polity of The United Methodist Church or its predecessor denominations or communions and has been a part of the Discipline since 1797. It reflects the connectional structure of the Church by ensuring that the property will be used solely for purposes consonant with the mission of the entire denomination as set forth in the Discipline. The trust requirement is thus a fundamental expression of United Methodism whereby local churches and other agencies and institutions within the denomination are both held accountable to and benefit from their connection with the entire worldwide Church.

In consonance with the legal definition and self-understanding of The United Methodist Church (see ¶ 141), and with particular reference to its lack of capacity to hold title to property, The United Methodist Church is organized as a connectional structure, and titles to all real and personal, tangible and intangible property held at jurisdictional, annual, or district conference levels, or by a local church or charge, or by an agency or institution of the Church, shall be held in trust for The United Methodist Church and subject to the provisions of its Discipline. Titles are not held by The United Methodist Church (see ¶ 807.1) or by the General Conference of The United Methodist Church, but instead by the incorporated conferences, agencies, or organizations of the denomination, or in the case of unincorporated bodies of the denomination, by boards of trustees established for the purpose of holding and administering real and personal, tangible and intangible property.



¶ 2501. Requirement of the Trust Clause for All Property-1. All properties of United Methodist local churches and other United Methodist agencies and institutions are held, in trust, for the benefit of the entire denomination, and ownership and usage of church property is subject to the Discipline. This trust requirement is an essential element of the historic polity of The United Methodist Church or its predecessor denominations or communions and has been a part of the Discipline since 1797. It reflects the connectional structure of the Church by ensuring that the property will be used solely for purposes consonant with the mission of the entire denomination as set forth in the Discipline. The trust requirement is thus a fundamental expression of United Methodism whereby local churches and other agencies and institutions within the denomination are both held accountable to and benefit from their connection with the entire worldwide Church.

In consonance with the legal definition and self-understanding of The United Methodist Church (see ¶ 141), and with particular reference to its lack of capacity to hold title to property, The United Methodist Church is organized as a connectional structure, and titles to all real and personal, tangible and intangible property held at jurisdictional, annual, or district conference levels, or by a local church or charge, or by an agency or institution of the Church, shall be held in trust for The United Methodist Church and subject to the provisions of its Discipline. Titles are not held by The United Methodist Church (see ¶ 807.1) or by the General Conference of The United Methodist Church, but instead by the incorporated conferences, agencies, or organizations of the denomination, or in the case of unincorporated bodies of the denomination, by boards of trustees established for the purpose of holding and administering real and personal, tangible and intangible property.

PS (and no snark meant) but could you really expect anything different from a denomination which has the motto "Open hearts, open minds and open doors"?

I asked the pastor if we would have to move out of the building, and he said no. That's all I know.
 

John t

Super Member
I asked the pastor if we would have to move out of the building, and he said no. That's all I know.

WOW!!

I have no reason to doubt what you heard the Pastor state, but that is a H U G E departure from what is in the Discipline. I posted that so if you were unfamiliar, you could read it from a primary source.

Curious, what is the name of your Annual Conference? I ask because I want to learn more about your particular situation nor do I wish to "argue with you" about it.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
WOW!!

I have no reason to doubt what you heard the Pastor state, but that is a H U G E departure from what is in the Discipline. I posted that so if you were unfamiliar, you could read it from a primary source.

Curious, what is the name of your Annual Conference? I ask because I want to learn more about your particular situation nor do I wish to "argue with you" about it.
I really don't know. I'm not Methodist, I just like that particular church. It is very small in a country town, but supplies one of the biggest food banks in the area. Not only that, but the first time I went to see what this church preached, I already believed what they did, so didn't feel so out of place like I generally do. They are Spirit-filled and I even experienced a healing there of my ribs.

In the first sermon he mentioned 1 John 3:9. That was like a "sign" to me that they knew that Jesus took away our sin, and didn't preach the opposite - 1 John 1:8 that is NOT about a Christian anymore than 1 John 1:6 is. Now I don't know if all Methodist church know the difference, but this church did.

I used to go to an AOG church until that pastor preached that all Christians still sin according to 1 John 1:8, and when I wanted to talk to him about it after service, he blew me off and walked away. That was after I had had a dream about that church that in essence was that it was not a 1st century church, but had become a Christian social club and I was to leave. So finally I did.

The small Methodist church is not the only one I visit. I say visit, because I haven't found one church that supplies all my needs. They are either right on scripturally and doctrine wise, but not socially or fellowship-wise, or the other way around.
 

John t

Super Member
The small Methodist church is not the only one I visit. I say visit, because I haven't found one church that supplies all my needs. They are either right on scripturally and doctrine wise, but not socially or fellowship-wise, or the other way around.

Try a church of the Christian and Missionary Alliance. They are a christ centered church planting denomination following Acts 1:9. In the USA they are mainly smaller churches, who exist to send church planters world wide. Their theology can be boiled down to this: Jesus Christ is Savior, Sanctifier, Healer and Coming King.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
Try a church of the Christian and Missionary Alliance. They are a christ centered church planting denomination following Acts 1:9. In the USA they are mainly smaller churches, who exist to send church planters world wide. Their theology can be boiled down to this: Jesus Christ is Savior, Sanctifier, Healer and Coming King.
Those four are like Foursquare. I like them best, but there isn't one close to me.
 
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John t

Super Member
Those four are like Foursquare. I like them best, but there isn't one close to me.
if you like tp read about Aimee Semple McPherson, I am sure that you will like to read about Phoebe Palmer. In post grad. I did a paper on her.

Also, Voice of the Martyrs is offering for those who support their worth wile ministry, a book about women martyrs. Go see their web site for more data.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
if you like tp read about Aimee Semple McPherson, I am sure that you will like to read about Phoebe Palmer. In post grad. I did a paper on her.

Also, Voice of the Martyrs is offering for those who support their worth wile ministry, a book about women martyrs. Go see their web site for more data.
Who is Phoebe Palmer? I read a bit of the life of John Wesley and absolutely love his mother!!!
 

John t

Super Member
Who is Phoebe Palmer? I read a bit of the life of John Wesley and absolutely love his mother!!!
The stories of the Wesley family are very entertaining and worth reading. Together, they and George Whitfield saved the United Stated and saved England from the horrors that were to come in the form of the French Revolution

Then look up her biography with a net search. I won't ruin what you will discover. :D
 
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CharismaticLady

Well-known member
The stories of the Wesley family are very entertaining and worth reading. Together, they and George Whitfield saved the United Stated and saved England from the horrors that were to come in the form of the French Revolution

Then look up her biography with a net search. I won't ruin what you will discover. :D
Okay, did. Is the Way of Holiness her biography, or is there another?
 

John t

Super Member
Okay, did. Is the Way of Holiness her biography, or is there another?

I have no idea about what you post. My paper was largely taken from contemporary articles about her. The women in the search answers doo not seem to have any connection to Pheobe.

Try the online version of Encyclopedia Britannica for better results.
 

RiJoRi

Well-known member
The way I see it, TWOH is a book Sr. Phoebe wrote. (I cheated - I Google'd her name! ☺️) She also wrote several others.

She wrote of holiness for the Methodist church - something that is sorely lacking today. 😢
--Rich
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
The way I see it, TWOH is a book Sr. Phoebe wrote. (I cheated - I Google'd her name! ☺️) She also wrote several others.

She wrote of holiness for the Methodist church - something that is sorely lacking today. 😢
--Rich
Yes, what has happened in not only the Methodist Church but Presbyterians as well, is an abomination.

20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness;
Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes,
And prudent in their own sight!

Therefore, as the fire devours the stubble,
And the flame consumes the chaff,
So their root will be as rottenness,
And their blossom will ascend like dust;
Because they have rejected the law of the Lord of hosts,
And despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.
25 Therefore the anger of the Lord is aroused against His people;
He has stretched out His hand against them
And stricken them,
And the hills trembled.
Their carcasses were as refuse in the midst of the streets.

For all this His anger is not turned away,
But His hand is stretched out still.
 
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BMS

Well-known member
Next week our First United Methodist church body is having a congregation meeting and will leave the denomination as it has failed to bring the denomination back into its original holiness. This is over the sexual perversion of gay bishops.
Yes, sadly it probably should. Alternatively it might be better to ignore the leadership and be chucked out.
 
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