My Original Question for Christians

Nouveau

Well-known member
Nope, list them.
They're not hard to find. Just look for this symbol: "?" Here are some you missed:

So was God powerless to curtail the influence of Satan upon others after he turned?

If you won't allow evidence to arbitrate our disagreement, what do you propose instead?
 

Leatherneck0311

Active member
They're not hard to find. Just look for this symbol: "?" Here are some you missed:

So was God powerless to curtail the influence of Satan upon others after he turned?

If you won't allow evidence to arbitrate our disagreement, what do you propose instead?
Answered both questions.
 

Leatherneck0311

Active member
No, you really didn't. You responded to both, but in neither case did you actually answer what was asked.
If I gave you proof you would just mock the evidence and God. For your first question”was God powerless“shows you have zero understanding about God. For your second question “ what do I propose” I propose you read and study the gospel of John and the book of Romans with an open mind and an open heart.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
If I gave you proof you would just mock the evidence and God. For your first question”was God powerless“shows you have zero understanding about God. For your second question “ what do I propose” I propose you read and study the gospel of John and the book of Romans with an open mind and an open heart.
Test your assumption here - give me your proof and see whether I mock it or instead offer reasoned rebuttal.

You still haven't actually answered the first question. Telling me you think I lack understanding isn't an answer. If God had the power to prevent Satan from negatively influencing others after his fall, why didn't he do just that?

And I've already read John and Romans, so how is this supposed to resolve our disagreement on God's existence? Could we perhaps employ reasoned evidence-based discussion to determine whether the claims of these scriptures are actually true and make sense?
 

Beloved Daughter

Well-known member
If I gave you proof you would just mock the evidence and God. For your first question”was God powerless“shows you have zero understanding about God. For your second question “ what do I propose” I propose you read and study the gospel of John and the book of Romans with an open mind and an open heart.

You have said quite a mouthful. Some will mock what a Christian says, but not everyone. God knows these people and He expects His sheep to keep the great commission. If Christians can't even show a sincere offer of the good news, where will they get it?

From the Bible:

Matthew 28:16-20

16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
 

Dizerner

Active member
So - how do you react when you see a church crush Christians as they pray to God for protection during an earthquake?

As Christians, we are aware of the problem of evil, that is, how can a loving God allow suffering. It may seem like a very emotionally difficult problem and many have lost their faith over it.

But we recognize that God can still be considered loving if he has sufficient reasons for allowing evil, and those sufficient reasons are ways that God values and glorifies himself in allowing the possibility of rebellion.

We attribute earthquakes to natural suffering arising from the curse of original sin. The virtue of God's holiness necessitated there be punishment for sin, and that punishment is corporate.

The Bible does not ignore the problem of evil or its logical difficulties. Jesus actually brought up a similar case in one of his dialogues:

"Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? "I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish." (Luk 13:3-5 NKJ)

The logic of this verse can easily mean the same thing reversed: Those people X whom catastrophe Y happened do you think the relation between the circumstance is correlated to their actions? Jesus says, not necessarily, but repentance is a more preeminent priority.

If you are interested in some more in depth analysis of the problem of evil, I have some lengthy posts on this forum I could link to.
 

Algor

Active member
As Christians, we are aware of the problem of evil, that is, how can a loving God allow suffering. It may seem like a very emotionally difficult problem and many have lost their faith over it.

But we recognize that God can still be considered loving if he has sufficient reasons for allowing evil, and those sufficient reasons are ways that God values and glorifies himself in allowing the possibility of rebellion.

We attribute earthquakes to natural suffering arising from the curse of original sin. The virtue of God's holiness necessitated there be punishment for sin, and that punishment is corporate.

The Bible does not ignore the problem of evil or its logical difficulties. Jesus actually brought up a similar case in one of his dialogues:

"Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? "I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish." (Luk 13:3-5 NKJ)

The logic of this verse can easily mean the same thing reversed: Those people X whom catastrophe Y happened do you think the relation between the circumstance is correlated to their actions? Jesus says, not necessarily, but repentance is a more preeminent priority.

If you are interested in some more in depth analysis of the problem of evil, I have some lengthy posts on this forum I could link to.
Now that was at least the beginning of a good reply. It at the very least acknowledges the difficulty intrinsic to the tension between the pain caused by our compassion and the actions of a putatively omnipotent deity.

One way of looking at it is that atheists give different evidential weight to that pain than Christians. Also, Christians state that their faith relieves the pain occasioned by compassion, whereas atheists tend to resign themselves to the existence of that pain.

(note, please: I have heard people assert that the difference implies that atheists (or Christians, depending) are somehow more compassionate. I would not make such an argument).
 

Dizerner

Active member
Now that was at least the beginning of a good reply. It at the very least acknowledges the difficulty intrinsic to the tension between the pain caused by our compassion and the actions of a putatively omnipotent deity.

One way of looking at it is that atheists give different evidential weight to that pain than Christians. Also, Christians state that their faith relieves the pain occasioned by compassion, whereas atheists tend to resign themselves to the existence of that pain.

(note, please: I have heard people assert that the difference implies that atheists (or Christians, depending) are somehow more compassionate. I would not make such an argument).

Thanks, Algor.

The thing is about our compassion, is that it can be very devious to delve into the actual deepest motivations for it. Sure, we all want to think we are God's gift to humankind and the most loving and caring thing you will ever find.

But the truth is I often feel compassion because I just don't like the feeling I get watching something suffer. In other words, I'm really just trying to alleviate my own pain in alleviating someone else's. And how is that really morally pure or virtuous, when in the end, I'm only trying to make myself happy by removing my unhappiness by other people's unhappiness? What seems like selfless love turns out to simply be pure selfishness.

Two things really helped solve the problem of evil for me. One is, I realized that as deeply offended and outraged as I felt, I really didn't care about other's suffering, I just cared about mine. My own limitations made me realize I was operating on emotional feelings and not pure logic. The other thing was, I finally did find something to care about other than me. I started caring about God.
 

Algor

Active member
Thanks, Algor.

The thing is about our compassion, is that it can be very devious to delve into the actual deepest motivations for it. Sure, we all want to think we are God's gift to humankind and the most loving and caring thing you will ever find.

But the truth is I often feel compassion because I just don't like the feeling I get watching something suffer. In other words, I'm really just trying to alleviate my own pain in alleviating someone else's. And how is that really morally pure or virtuous, when in the end, I'm only trying to make myself happy by removing my unhappiness by other people's unhappiness? What seems like selfless love turns out to simply be pure selfishness.

Two things really helped solve the problem of evil for me. One is, I realized that as deeply offended and outraged as I felt, I really didn't care about other's suffering, I just cared about mine. My own limitations made me realize I was operating on emotional feelings and not pure logic. The other thing was, I finally did find something to care about other than me. I started caring about God.

I think there is a good generalizeable insight in there: compassion can be a trap for the ego and for the thoughtful mind. It really is a natural reaction, and no more than that. A lack of compassion is pathology, but having compassion is like having thumbs: it represents a valuable capacity, but it really depends what you do with it.
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
As Christians, we are aware of the problem of evil, that is, how can a loving God allow suffering. It may seem like a very emotionally difficult problem and many have lost their faith over it.

But we recognize that God can still be considered loving if he has sufficient reasons for allowing evil, and those sufficient reasons are ways that God values and glorifies himself in allowing the possibility of rebellion.

We attribute earthquakes to natural suffering arising from the curse of original sin. The virtue of God's holiness necessitated there be punishment for sin, and that punishment is corporate.
So you think original sin justifies God crushing people with churches, going kids cancer, and watching children starve to death by the thousands?

I cannot think of anything that would make me give someone cancer. I cannot think of anything that would make me refuse to cure a child's cancer if I had the cure.

Would you? Can you think of any sin or crime or slight that would make you give someone you love cancer?

So I just cannot process this. What was original sin and why would that make a loving God spread Covid across the world?
 

Leatherneck0311

Active member
That is omniscient. God is also omnipotent or "(of a deity) having unlimited power; able to do anything." God is in control of everything.

Do you think Satan is more powerful than God? No? Then God allows Satan to inflict evil. The responsibility is with God.
You neglect choice. If a man murders a person because he acted on an evil temptation and rejected God’s warning to NOT commit murder it is God’s fault ? You neglect nature, and poor construction, If a building collapses and kills God’s worshippers it , according to you, is automatically God’s fault even though the collapse could have resulted from nature or poor construction. You blame God for everything and give God no credit for warning you to escape eternal wrath and then providing the means to escape that wrath.
 

Dizerner

Active member
So you think original sin justifies God crushing people with churches, going kids cancer, and watching children starve to death by the thousands?

Does it really matter what I think? What makes my opinion important?

I will say: my preference in my what we call "fallen nature" is to simply have no judgment and no holiness because I don't like it, but when I am transformed and enlightened, I realize I don't even understand what my own value system actually is, and I also begin to appreciate that God is the most valuable thing and not creation.

I cannot think of anything that would make me give someone cancer. I cannot think of anything that would make me refuse to cure a child's cancer if I had the cure.

What if someone tortured the thing you loved the absolute most in front of you in a prolonged and excruciating way. Would you have feelings of revenge and wanting to counter inflict pain at all? Or would you be instantly completely forgiving about.

Would you? Can you think of any sin or crime or slight that would make you give someone you love cancer?

I really don't think I'm important enough to ask this question to.

So I just cannot process this. What was original sin and why would that make a loving God spread Covid across the world?

Original sin was an act of rebellion against a perfectly loving, holy and good God.

By devaluing God to the most extreme amount possible, treating his desires and wishes and character as if they completely didn't matter, a tremendous counter-devaluation by God is incurred. In the Bible this is called judgment, a punishment for rebelling against God.

The heart of your issue is something different than I think you think it is—that is, to you, if you were God, you would not care about certain values the way he does. You would see humility as being a "nice guy" to creation defined as not making it suffer to much. But the thing is, you are not an uncreated source of unlimited worth, power and perfection. You are just a creation that cares too much about itself.
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
You neglect choice.
No one chooses cancer. No one chooses to have their child ripped from their arms in a flood. No one chooses Covid, birth defects, starvation, or parasites that live in your eye.

If all things come from God that means God created cancer and Covid and eye parasites and gave them to people against their wishes. God can cure any disease and does not. God could give food to the 10,000 children that are starving to death today but he will not.

I do not see how you can think of that as loving.
If a building collapses and kills God’s worshippers it , according to you, is automatically God’s fault even though the collapse could have resulted from nature or poor construction. You blame God for everything and give God no credit for warning you to escape eternal wrath and then providing the means to escape that wrath.

"All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made." -- John 1:3

If God is all powerful then you have to see everything as from God. You cannot blame construction when there is a God that could have just stopped the entire earthquake. God did not. He made the earthquake and watched passively as people were crushed.

If God is all powerful then every sorrow is by his will. And I cannot see how you can make that love.
 

Howie

Well-known member
You neglect choice. If a man murders a person because he acted on an evil temptation and rejected God’s warning to NOT commit murder it is God’s fault ? You neglect nature, and poor construction, If a building collapses and kills God’s worshippers it , according to you, is automatically God’s fault even though the collapse could have resulted from nature or poor construction. You blame God for everything and give God no credit for warning you to escape eternal wrath and then providing the means to escape that wrath.
FYI ... same questions asked and answered for years. Your time is better spent elsewhere.
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
FYI ... same questions asked and answered for years. Your time is better spent elsewhere.
You have not explained why it is loving for God to give children bone cancer yet. You try to show only the suffering with human involvement so you can claim Free Will.

I'd like to see how you explain that it is loving to give cancer to a child. Do you imagine God walking into a children's cancer ward, looking at the kids suffering in unimaginable pain, and God thinks 'yep - this is about right. No need to cure anyone today!'

I find that attitude monstrous not loving.
 

Howie

Well-known member
You have not explained why it is loving for God to give children bone cancer yet. You try to show only the suffering with human involvement so you can claim Free Will.

I'd like to see how you explain that it is loving to give cancer to a child. Do you imagine God walking into a children's cancer ward, looking at the kids suffering in unimaginable pain, and God thinks 'yep - this is about right. No need to cure anyone today!'

I find that attitude monstrous not loving.
I have, many times. You should have listened.
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
I have, many times. You should have listened.
OK. My guess is that I did listen - I just did not find your argument compelling. Mainly because I cannot think of any way it would be loving to give a child cancer. And instead of accepting that I do not agree you just accused me of not listening. It happens a lot on CARM.

Because if you had explained how giving a kid cancer was love I am sure I would have remembered that - because it is impossible.

I cannot even imagine how that would work:

"Son, I love you and would do anything for you. To show you my love I am going to give you a cancerous brain tumor. The tumor will grow slowly over time, causing ever increasing pain. You'll have headaches, vomiting, and lose your balance a lot. After a few years you'll start losing your sight and hearing but it will not matter because the pain will be so intense that you will not notice. And eventually, slowly, painfully, you will die before you turn ten.

Because I love you."

I cannot see how you can possibly make that love. The only way is to just not deal with the implications at all. Tell yourself God is love and move on. If you actually try to explain it then its obvious that no one gives cancer out of love.

But if you explained it then that's cool.
 
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