My two week binge on Calvary Chapel

Nic

Active member
As a man made yoke of bondage equal to vows & promises? That has been shared if you had read entirely rather than glancing down the post.

You do know because you referred to speaking against man made vows but saw nothing wrong with added vows to marriage to wit, I say do apply the same reasonings against promises and vows to your added vows to marriage & a believer's commitment.

On the contrary, your commitment speaks of you. It is to your glory if you keep it. His commitment speaks of Him and it is to His glory if & when you apply your faith in Him to keep it. You cannot do both. Either you did it or He did it, enabling you to follow Him by faith alone and not by the deeds of the law like keeping a commitment or a promise.

That does not explain why you felt obligated to add your commitment to Him. If you believed in His commitment to you per the New Covenant and all He asks from you is to believe Him that He will finish His work in you, then look to Him in helping you to lay aside every weight & sin in following Him by faith.

Add to your faith .... in Him.... as in what you look to Him to do in you in gaining or adding those things.. He will finish His work in you. Believe.

Not even in ministry will there be a parade for us in Heaven.

1 Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are your's; 22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your's; 23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

1 Corinthians 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
Good post.
 

Hark

Active member
It's not that I don't see what Paul said. It's that I haven't had the unpleasant experience of having to deal with someone who is in this state. It's not a common practice for folks to show up, and say--- hey guys. I got the best and coolest deal. I get to screw my step mom, and my dad has no clue.
So, I can't do what Paul said we should do in this case.
Or, in other words, I wasn't assigned the task of being what we've long called-- a sin-sniffer.
So, telling me that I have a problem because I don't get told that there are people who are living in sin, that's a you problem. When someone comes to me, and confesses that they're living in sin, then I'll do as Paul tells us in Galatians 6:1-5

1 Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted. 2 Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. 3 For if anyone thinks himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4 But let each one examine his own work, and then he will have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another. 5 For each one shall bear his own load.​
Try not to apply verse 5 as if verse 2 does not exist. Do not apply verse 5 as if that means ignore the one in trespass. If a brother comes to you, confessing his sins, I'd say His job is done. If a brother is caught in a trespass or overtaken in a fault, then do not apply verse 5 as if you are not responsible for that wayward believer in verse 1 when verse 2 says you are and to correct him in the love of Christ.
Nope. This is why Paul tells us--- wake up sleeper, the day of our salvation is nearer than when we first believed.
Like I said, not every believer is awake otherwise Paul would not need to wake up believers.
Well, you haven't provided any evidence that my eyes need to be opened. As I stated numerous times now--- you're all over the map, and my questions have resulted in vaguely stated responses, which do not result in clearly defined issues that are sins that I struggle with, nor solutions to what you think are problems, tied back to my post about my satisfaction with the biblical teaching I receive at my local Calvary Chapel.
The irony here of your posts, is that you have no relational connection with anyone here on this op, which would give us reason that you understand, let alone know us, beyond a general spiritual connection in Christ.
I.e., if you were a friend, with whom I interact at church, and see me regularly, and recognize a problem, then we could consider taking you more seriously. But you're just a stranger on the internet. And what's worse is that your ideas are totally disconnected to what this op was discussing prior to your showing up here.
Do you have the seal of adoption whereby we can call God Father? Then we are brothers. Whom are we to be submissive to? The Word of God.

You do not see anything yet because of doublemindedness. Proof of that is by how you see the evil of vows & promises, but yet do not apply that same conviction to the added vows of marriage nor to a believer's commitment to Christ. I am hoping by now He has helped you to see your oversight.
I.e.,
my post, show me where you're getting all these issues you think I have.

I know the thing I like about the Calvary chapels I've attended is that they seek to make it about Jesus, and not cultural religion. I.e., they're not going to haggle you about catholicism, lutheranism, etc....​
It's allowed me to focus on learning to follow Jesus, and not be caught up in whether I'm a methodist, catholic, etc....​
This has opened the door for me to strip away all the denominationalisms that I've experienced in my life.​
Dust off your bible, pull up a seat, and have a talk with God. He'd love to hear from you.​
and according to Isaiah 54:13, and Matthew 11:28-30--- God, and Jesus are in the teaching business. Not as some tv preacher, but as a friend, who'd love to help you work things out.​

At Calvary chapel, the bible was presented as primary, so we could know God, on God's Terms. So, if knowing God on God's terms, and not men's is a problem with you, then just say so.
The fact that you saw nothing wrong at that church's site in their commitment and thus have confirmed afterwards of your own commitment and added vows to marriage covenant ... even though you see the evil of promises & vows, does lead me to ask you this question;

is it your church's teachings to ignore where other believers are at in their walk with the Lord so as to ignore the trespasses you know they are in and just concentrate on your own path in following Jesus?

Like it or not, following Jesus means having love for one another and in having love for one another is to seek their good in the Lord. We are not to ignore the works of darkness just for the sake of fellowship.

2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

Ephesians 5:10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
 

Hark

Active member
Ironically, Jesus said that His meat was to do the Will of Him who'd sent him. there's no meat in milk, as Paul told the Corinthians.
So, what's this meat you speak of?
Hebrews 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. 12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
I'm not "going after" you. I've now asked you a few times to make your points more coherent, and clear. So, please stop playing victim here. It's not a godly practice. Luke tells us in Acts 17:11 that the Bereans were more noble than the Thessalonians, because they searched the scriptures daily to see if what Paul was saying was true or not. Paul then told the thessalonians:
My point here is you had not ask what specific clarification you needed. Since then, you had asked some specific questions for which I had answered and yet you seem to repeat as if I had not. Commitment is something a believer makes & keeps. You know this because then you spoke of His commitment that He keeps. You do not seem to see the difference between the two for why your commitment is not needed but your faith in Him and His commitment to you is.


19 Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not despise prophecies. 21 Test all things; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.

So, I am not quenching God's Spirit. Nor am I despising your prophesying. I am testing what you're saying; I'm holding fast to t hat which is good, and making sure I abstain from every form of evil.

I have simply, and concisely asked you, a few times now, to make your ideas more coherent, and clear.
I believe God has to cause the increase here.
And I appreciate your concern for me. But you haven't demonstrated a clear and coherent understanding of what you think my problem is.
I'm not commited to sin. I am not involved in ungodly activities. I walk in the Spirit, and engage in interacting with other saints in Christ, within, and beyond my fellowship at my local church/body of believers.
I've never been involved in any men's "lodges" such as Feeemasonry, Moose, Lion's Club, etc....
I've never been a catholic, lutheran, etc.... I grew up in the Methodist church, and left that in 1971-2. I've been learning to follow Jesus since 1977.
So. again, you're not even in the ballpark on godly instruction, or encouragement.

In all honesty, it's like you're throwing darts at a dart board, blindfolded, and in your attempts to hit the board, you keep missing.
You've hit the wall to the side. You've hit the host, and 2 of his attendants, several patrons, and you're working your way around the room, injuring numerous people, and now the front door just opened, and you've hit 3 patrons who just entered the room.
So...... you can either stop, or focus. At this point, I'm going to say that you need to dial it back, and focus.

Are you going to do that, or do you think that by continuing to randomly throw darts at people, you'll eventually hit the board?


Ironically, I'm not having a crisis of faith. If I was, I have close friends I can talk to. I wouldn't talk to a stranger about it.

Ok.
I haven't left following Jesus. As we read in Hebrews 4, He's my high priest, and I come to his throne of Grace, quite frequently.


Indeed he has. But you're not feeding. You're not even providing food. I've asked you numerous times now to focus, and make what you're saying more coherent, and clear.

Ever heard the phrase--- if there's a mist in the pulpit, there's a fog in the pew ?
It's an issue preachers have if they don't have a clear understanding of what they're teaching on. If they're not understanding, those who hear them will be totally confused, and not get it.
Well...... you're walking in a mist. So, I'm not even going to try to walk through the pea-soup fog that's out here. I've done that in the past, and experienced some catastrophic accidents as a result.
So, when you clear up your mist, and the fog dissipates, I'll be here.
Only God can lift the fog around you. When you do see the truth and you are set free by Him, give Him the credit & glory since you ought to know you were not hearing me at al
 

Hark

Active member
Indeed. But you're not showing love, by being so vague and ambiguous.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Timothy+2:10-26&version=KJV
Don't you think you need to ask Jesus where I am coming from even if I am preaching error so you can correct me?

If I shared scripture to the topic below, then ask questions to whatever you seem to see as vague.

Showing love for one another in correcting one another is seeking their good in the Lord so that they may obtain the eternal glory that comes with our salvation which is to be received by the Bridegroom as that vessel unto honor in His House rather than left behind in being "damned" as vessels unto dishonor in His House for not being ready, but still in His House. If you want to study that truth you can by reading with Him 2 Timothy 2:10-26

As it is, I am willing in Christ's love to walk you through it, but again, only He can cause the increase.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

There is an eternal glory that comes with our salvation and that is to be received by Him as that vessel unto honor in His House. More on that later as we progress through this reading. Up next is that faithful saying that we all are suppose to know.

11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. 14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

The bold portion tells us the consequence for any saved believer in denying Him, but even if they do not believe in Him any more, He is faithful because He still abides; hence OSAS is true. As we read on, we see Paul giving an example of a former believer but nevertheless that foundation is sure as well as that seal of adoption for why even former believers are still called to depart from iniquity.

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

The importance for why we are to seek the good of other believers is referring to verse 10 so that they may obtain that eternal glory that comes with our salvation because there are 2 kinds of vessels in His House; hence tow kinds of inheritance.

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

So what about those who do not look to Him to help them depart from iniquity? They are vessels unto dishonor but still in His House. Note the difference between the two kinds of vessels; one of gold and silver and the other of wood and earth; thanks to Him, I see the gold and silvers ones as firstfruits of the resurrection that lives in the City of God in Heaven at the Marriage Supper .. whereas the wood and earth as vessels unto dishonor are the ones left behind to be resurrected after the great tribulation as serving the King of kings on earth from all over the world.

We read on to see other exhortations and how God can even recover some from the snare of the devil that have gone astray.

22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. 24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

So those not recovered and are still in iniquity by the time the Bridegroom comes, they will be denied by Him but He still abides for why He is faithful to finish His work even in them that are left behind as He will lose none of all the Father has given Him. John 6:37-40
 

Hark

Active member
Well, I'm not following you home. You sound like you're lost, and I'm not wandering the halls of madness with a stranger.
I'd apologize, but as I said--- I've been in what we call-- pea soup fog, and have seen seriously catastrophic accidents, where over 100 people have gotten seriously injured because of it. It's just not going to happen.
Follow Jesus Home. That would require asking Him if there is a pea soup fog blinding you of your double-minded state or not.
Great passage.
The thing is--- you're the one who is walking in here and telling me I have a problem because I attend a calvary chapel. Then you start dropping a bunch of incoherent, disconnected thoughts, which are like poorly aimed darts, hitting everything except the dartboard.
I'm not having a problem with the fact that you want to help. I'm having a problem with the fact that your help is not helping.
I do rely on Him to help me understand posters even when they are out there. I ask specific questions and give a guess at an answer even to address certain points that I believe the poster needs to hear as the Lord leads. Just because He enables me to share the word and its value to me in my walk with Him does not mean whomever I post to will receive that word of truth right away. They may receive that truth later down the road of life outside of this forum but it is on God to cause the increase.
In fact, let's do it this way.....

A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold In settings of silver.

Your words are not fitly spoken. I wish they were, but they're not. At all.
Mayhap down the road, the Lord will bring it to remembrance thru the Holy Spirit in you. It is my hope you shall receive it before the Bridegroom comes.
A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold
In settings of silver.

You're not rightly dividing the word of truth. It'd be nice if you were, but you're butchering the word's beauty.
Giving no examples of it is hardly a way to correct any one, brother.
I have repeatedly reconsidered what you're saying, and you're not speaking in a clear and coherent manner.

As Paul said to the Corinthians regarding speaking in tongues.

6 But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you unless I speak to you either by revelation, by knowledge, by prophesying, or by teaching? 7 Even things without life, whether flute or harp, when they make a sound, unless they make a distinction in the sounds, how will it be known what is piped or played? 8 For if the trumpet makes an uncertain sound, who will prepare for battle? 9 So likewise you, unless you utter by the tongue words easy to understand, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air. 10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of languages in the world, and none of them is without significance. 11 Therefore, if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to him who speaks, and he who speaks will be a foreigner to me. 12 Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel.​

So, please.... speak coherently. Make it clear so we can understand you.
Another poster understands me just fine, thanks to Jesus Christ.
Nope. It's not that you speak truth that I have a problem here. It's that your speaking of the truth is as Paul says in 1 Cor. 14..... You're not speaking in a manner which presents the truth you seek to speak clearly. Reading your material I have to read it several times, and each time it makes less and less sense.

oh goody....
Ok. What flat-footed iniquity have I committed?
When you were misled to make a commitment and even add extra vows to the marriage covenant and verses were shown to that error.
Yeah, I seek his forgiveness daily. As John said, more importantly I seek his cleansing, so I can be free from a corrupted conscience. I really like having a clean conscience. It's a nice sense to be whole, and right with God.
Believe it or not, doublemindedness is something the Lord took time & patience to get through because I could not believe I was led astray nor taught wrong or doing something that displeases Him, but He did finally broke through & set me free to rest in Him for following Him.

That way I testify of Him by my faith in Him rather than give a false witness by testifying of me by my commitment to Him.
Well, as you've provided nothing to support that you know what you're talking about, or why my attending Calvary Chapel is a sin, please work this out, so I can see a coherent, and clear set of ideas, supported with biblical passages.

19 Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not despise prophecies. 21 Test all things; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.
Do not the religious world identify with their commitments to do good and be good? Then how can Christian abstain from all appearances of evil if they do the same thing by keeping a commitment as if by their will and of the flesh is how a Christian is able to do good and be good? No one can see your faith in Him in His commitment to you. All the religious world sees is your commitment & you did it & they praise you for it.

We must decrease so that He may increase. He has set me free from my commitment to speak no more of it but speak of my faith in Him in His Covenant to me that He will help me to follow him and not just having reconciled me to God after having saved me. I can only live this reconciled relationship with God through Jesus Christ and that is why it is written that the just shall live by faith rather than by commitment.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Mysticism refers to subjectivism and emotionalism.

Nic
Having considered this further, a number of biblical ideas come to mind here.
Hope
Courage
Joy
Peace/Shalom
Sorrow
Grief
Being valued

While there is subjectivity in them, they are emotions.
Hope is a very powerful emotion, giving us the courage to move forward, in spite of great odds against us.
Courage too is an emotion, just like fear, but bolstered by hope and faith (the belief that God is with us, and will, according to his word, give us what we need to achieve his purposes, or the purpose of the push forward).
Joy, a deep, abiding sense of God's Love, goodness, righteousness, mercy, and encouragement
Peace/Shalom- a deep abiding sense of wholeness, which is life-inducing, life-enhancing, "a feeling that all is right" where it actually matters.
Sorrow and grief are knowns.
Being valued, having meaning to another, mostly by God.
these however also go beyond emotion, and are objectively based.

So, these are what I was referring to when I discuss mystical, in following Jesus.

I think that while there are extreme practices, which take people away from God, and trust in Jesus, it's quite often forgotten that when Jesus saves us from our sin, he's making our spirits alive.

Remember that in Genesis 2:7, we read that God created Adam a living soul. This means that everything Adam needed to live, was created in him. This life was included in Eve too.

God told Adam in Gen 2 that in the day he ate the fruit of the t ree of the knowledge of good and evil, dying, he would die.
I've long understood this to be the death of his living soul. The part of him which interacted with God died that day, and we inherited it, genetically, being passed through our parent's lineage, specifically the lineage of the fathers, dating all the way back to Adam.

In John 3:3-5, we read that Jesus tells us--- unless we are born again we can neither see/perceive nor enter God's Kingdom.
In 1 Peter, we read that we are born again by God's Word, which is an "incorruptible seed."
Paul tells us in Ephesians 2:1 that we were dead in our sins and trespasses, but we've now been made alive through Jesus Christ.
In reading over the years, I saw in Ezekiel 36:25-27 that God was going to cleanse our sin, remove our old stony heart of flesh, and give us a new heart of flesh, as well as giving us a new spirit, and his own Holy Spirit, to "Cause" us to keep his commandments, which Paul alludes to in Romans 8:4-8, Galatians 5, and the fruits of the Spirit.


Sin has not only killed our spirit/living soul, cutting us off from God, but it has corrupted our emotions, and psychological state. Which is why humans impacted by sin, are all messed up--- your description of depression, people whose lives have been made a complete and total mess--- drug abuse, alcoholism, sexual addition, etc......

Thus, with the new birth, we are restored spiritually, and that spiritual restoration starts the restoration of the heart (which includes the emotions, and the will, self-control, etc.....)

So, in fact, the whole human being is being restored.
This includes a restoration of our thinking, our emotions, etc....

So, yes, I am a "practitioner" of the mystical. As should all who follow Jesus.
Not as an end-all, be all, but as the "fruit" of their walk/relationship with Jesus/the Father.
Remember--- we're adopted into the family of God, through faith in Jesus.
This means that we've become the brothers and sisters of Jesus, and sons/daughters of God.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Don't you think you need to ask Jesus where I am coming from even if I am preaching error so you can correct me?
I'm asking you to make your points clear, so I can understand you. I don't need to correct someone before I understand their statements. When I see something that is clearly errant, and I ask them to clarify, it helps me to know if in fact a correction is needed or not.
So far, you haven't even clarified your points, so I'm focusing on asking you to clarify.
Considering that Paul told Titus that a contentious person, who after the 1st and second admonition refuses to pay attention, walk away, I could've blown you off the other day. I'm seeking to give you the benefit of the doubt here.
Paul also tells us in 1 Cor. 13 that love is patient, kind, ....... rejoices iin the truth, does not rejoice in iniquity,........ believes always.......
I'm believing God that you can clearly explain your whole point for criticizing me for attending a Calvary Chapel.
And not just criticizing me for that, but having some wildly off-topic accusations which have no bearing or basis in fact/truth.

As I described, you're like a drunk in a bar, throwing darts, and you can't even hit the dart board. You've hit just about everything, and everyone other than the dartboard, but the dartboard is bare, and untouched.

So, have I asked Jesus to help you? Yes. If he is, then you're not listening. At which point, I'm thinking you should be treated as Paul told Titus....

Tit 3:9 NKJV - But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless.
Tit 3:10 NKJV - Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition,
Tit 3:11 NKJV - knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.

So.... are you warped, sinning, and self-condemned?
Because you sure don't say anything remotely related to me, or my fellowship in Christ with the saints at my local fellowship.


If I shared scripture to the topic below, then ask questions to whatever you seem to see as vague.

Showing love for one another in correcting one another is seeking their good in the Lord so that they may obtain the eternal glory that comes with our salvation which is to be received by the Bridegroom as that vessel unto honor in His House rather than left behind in being "damned" as vessels unto dishonor in His House for not being ready, but still in His House. If you want to study that truth you can by reading with Him 2 Timothy 2:10-26

As it is, I am willing in Christ's love to walk you through it, but again, only He can cause the increase.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

There is an eternal glory that comes with our salvation and that is to be received by Him as that vessel unto honor in His House. More on that later as we progress through this reading. Up next is that faithful saying that we all are suppose to know.

11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. 14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

The bold portion tells us the consequence for any saved believer in denying Him, but even if they do not believe in Him any more, He is faithful because He still abides; hence OSAS is true. As we read on, we see Paul giving an example of a former believer but nevertheless that foundation is sure as well as that seal of adoption for why even former believers are still called to depart from iniquity.

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

The importance for why we are to seek the good of other believers is referring to verse 10 so that they may obtain that eternal glory that comes with our salvation because there are 2 kinds of vessels in His House; hence tow kinds of inheritance.

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

So what about those who do not look to Him to help them depart from iniquity? They are vessels unto dishonor but still in His House. Note the difference between the two kinds of vessels; one of gold and silver and the other of wood and earth; thanks to Him, I see the gold and silvers ones as firstfruits of the resurrection that lives in the City of God in Heaven at the Marriage Supper .. whereas the wood and earth as vessels unto dishonor are the ones left behind to be resurrected after the great tribulation as serving the King of kings on earth from all over the world.

We read on to see other exhortations and how God can even recover some from the snare of the devil that have gone astray.

22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. 24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

So those not recovered and are still in iniquity by the time the Bridegroom comes, they will be denied by Him but He still abides for why He is faithful to finish His work even in them that are left behind as He will lose none of all the Father has given Him. John 6:37-40
Yeah, it's still sounding like more off topic babble.
Clear this up, so we have an actual topic to deal with.
Eg, I don't believe in "OSAS."
I do believe those who are actually saved from their sin, and abide in Jesus may rest in God's provision for their salvation. but I do not accept that I can go out and live as I please, having a "fire insurance policy."

Paul was quite clear in Timothy--- let those who name the name of Christ depart from iniquity. For the seal of God's Household stands sure--- the Lord knows those who are his.

So..... work it out, just as Paul told the Philippians, 2:12-14.
 

Hark

Active member
I'm asking you to make your points clear, so I can understand you. I don't need to correct someone before I understand their statements. When I see something that is clearly errant, and I ask them to clarify, it helps me to know if in fact a correction is needed or not.
So far, you haven't even clarified your points, so I'm focusing on asking you to clarify.
You are still not asking what to clarify.
Considering that Paul told Titus that a contentious person, who after the 1st and second admonition refuses to pay attention, walk away, I could've blown you off the other day. I'm seeking to give you the benefit of the doubt here.
That may be what the Lord is leading us both to do then. Only He can bring about iron sharpening iron here.
Paul also tells us in 1 Cor. 13 that love is patient, kind, ....... rejoices iin the truth, does not rejoice in iniquity,........ believes always.......
I'm believing God that you can clearly explain your whole point for criticizing me for attending a Calvary Chapel.
And not just criticizing me for that, but having some wildly off-topic accusations which have no bearing or basis in fact/truth.
None that you can see or willing to admit to at the moment. Any correction to any brother can be seen as criticizing. Like you are now to me.
As I described, you're like a drunk in a bar, throwing darts, and you can't even hit the dart board. You've hit just about everything, and everyone other than the dartboard, but the dartboard is bare, and untouched.
Still have not proven that by any example given by quoting me to prove that point..
So, have I asked Jesus to help you? Yes. If he is, then you're not listening. At which point, I'm thinking you should be treated as Paul told Titus....

Tit 3:9 NKJV - But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless.
Tit 3:10 NKJV - Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition,
Tit 3:11 NKJV - knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.

So.... are you warped, sinning, and self-condemned?
Because you sure don't say anything remotely related to me, or my fellowship in Christ with the saints at my local fellowship.
Then if that were true, you could easily quote me and prove it in that way.

For example, if I was rebuking you for taking the Eucharist at a Mass in that church, you could easily defend yourself by saying.. "Where did I say that?" And you could chime in agreement with me that you do not believe as the Catholics do and your church does not participate in the Mass.

But I was addressing the church's commitment by which later on in our discussion, you mentioned your commitment; then you addressed finally that you see the evil of vows and promises but see nothing wrong with extra vows made by couples when they get married which to me seems contrary per your conviction.

And yet now, you seem to say you have no clue as to what I am talking about.
Yeah, it's still sounding like more off topic babble.
Clear this up, so we have an actual topic to deal with.
Eg, I don't believe in "OSAS."
You had mentioned that you did not believe in OSAS earlier for why I was discussing 2 Timothy 2:10-26 with you.

And I believe you are purposefully being evasive in the discussion because you are unwilling to address those scriptures to prove otherwise point by point when I was going through the verses with you.

Even if you believe I was not rightly dividing the word of truth or you did not understand me, you whom have testified to following the Lord in reading His words for what? 44 years? Surely you can show the love of Christ by sharing with me in how He would lead you to apply 2 Timothy 2:10-26 to mean, right? But I understand it if per your belief against OSAS, it would be hard for you to apply otherwise.
I do believe those who are actually saved from their sin, and abide in Jesus may rest in God's provision for their salvation. but I do not accept that I can go out and live as I please, having a "fire insurance policy."

Paul was quite clear in Timothy--- let those who name the name of Christ depart from iniquity. For the seal of God's Household stands sure--- the Lord knows those who are his.

So..... work it out, just as Paul told the Philippians, 2:12-14.
Okay then. let's try a different tact if the Lord permits. I'll ask you questions.

#1 What does a church commitment means to you? What is the church saying that they will do in keeping that commitment?

#2 What does you commitment to Christ mean to you? What are you saying you will do in keeping that commitment?

#3 How is it that you see vows and promises as of evil? What is your conviction of how self destructive that is?

#4 How is your commitment and added vows to marriage not of that same evil as of vows & promises? Can you show the difference?

#5 Does believing in Him and His commitment to you requires anything from you other than to believe in Him to do it?

#6 In defense of His work by His commitment and in defense of your work by your commitment, are there any overlays that would confuse which one of you did the work?

#7 If there are any overlays, does that mean you should trust Him to let Him do it, thus not part of your commitment?

#8 And if you see how His Covenant is not lacking anything, would you see the need to be set free from all commitments and added extra vows to marriage so you can rest in Him and His Covenant to you?

Maybe then I can understand how you believe and how you are following Jesus without opposing yourself by your commitment to Him..
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Try not to apply verse 5 as if verse 2 does not exist. Do not apply verse 5 as if that means ignore the one in trespass. If a brother comes to you, confessing his sins, I'd say His job is done. If a brother is caught in a trespass or overtaken in a fault, then do not apply verse 5 as if you are not responsible for that wayward believer in verse 1 when verse 2 says you are and to correct him in the love of Christ.
Ok, so cluelessness is the problem here.


Like I said, not every believer is awake otherwise Paul would not need to wake up believers.
and yet you really don't see anything that shows I am asleep.
Do you have the seal of adoption whereby we can call God Father? Then we are brothers. Whom are we to be submissive to? The Word of God.
Yep. So, why are you criticizing me for attending a bible teaching church?
You do not see anything yet because of doublemindedness. Proof of that is by how you see the evil of vows & promises, but yet do not apply that same conviction to the added vows of marriage nor to a believer's commitment to Christ. I am hoping by now He has helped you to see your oversight.
Curious..... do you see anything? Because Jesus was quite clear--- if you say you see, then your sin remains.


The fact that you saw nothing wrong at that church's site in their commitment and thus have confirmed afterwards of your own commitment and added vows to marriage covenant ... even though you see the evil of promises & vows, does lead me to ask you this question;
I'm not the one who is spinning himself in circles, with no clarity of thought, except that I'm guilty for attending a bible teaching church, who seeks to follow Jesus.

is it your church's teachings to ignore where other believers are at in their walk with the Lord so as to ignore the trespasses you know they are in and just concentrate on your own path in following Jesus?
No. It's my bible's teaching that I'm to focus on following Jesus. Hebrews 12:1-2.


Like it or not, following Jesus means having love for one another and in having love for one another is to seek their good in the Lord. We are not to ignore the works of darkness just for the sake of fellowship.
And yet, you have no clarity of thought so you can love.

2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
And?

Ephesians 5:10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
And?

You first have to show where the sin is, and why my job is to be a sin sniffer, instead of focusing on following Jesus.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
You are still not asking what to clarify.
Well, if that's the case, then you've failed to read anything I've stated.
I think we're done here.
You're so focused on your own sin, that you can't see what following Jesus entails.

As Paul told Titus---

9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless. 10 Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, 11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.

According to 2 Corinthians 10, we cannot avenge the disobedience of others until our own obedience is complete.

So, you want to walk in light?

According to Romans 8:1-8, we read the following

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

If you are in Christ, you are no longer under the condemnation of your sin. Jesus described that condemnation in John 3:18-20.

Why?
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

God's Spirit has made us free from the law of sin and death, as described in Romans 6-7, and beyond.

3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,

I.e., Jesus took care of our problem. His life was perfect/whole/complete before God, so when he died, he could say--- it is finished! -- and it stuck. To prove it was acceptable to God, he raised Jesus from the dead, 3 days later. And as Paul tells us in Romans 4:23-25, Jesus was delivered for our offences, and raised for our justification. And as we read in Romans 5:1--- we HAVE been (past tense) justified with God, through faith in Jesus our Lord.

4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

And in verses 4-8, we read that the only way to satisfy the righteous requirements of the law is to walk in the Spirit,
And the only way to walk according to the Spirit is to focus our thinking in Spiritual things.

So..... what choose you? Do you want to continue to struggle with sin? Or do you want to live a godly, righteous and holy life?

If the latter, focus your thinking on Spiritual things!

Isaiah tells us in 26:3-4, that God will keep us in Perfect Peace (Shalom Shalom) if we think on Him, because we trust in Him.

Paul tells us in Philippians 4:6-9 that we can live with a solution to anxiety-- prayer, and thanksgiving/gratitude. He further says that if we focus our thinking on pure, lovely, true, just, righteous, honorable, praiseworthy things--- God himself, who is the God of Peace will be with us.

Thus, we who are in Christ, we are new creations (2 Cor. 5:17), and have the righteousness of God (2 Cor. 5:21), and are no longer under condemnation for our sin.

The next question that comes up from this is---- what are pure, lovely, just, righteous, praiseworthy....... things?

According to Psalm 19, we're given those.





7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul;

The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple;

8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart;

The commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes;

9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever;

The judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.



So..... what are the Spiritual things we should be thinking on?

What did Jesus say about his words?

63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

We who are in Christ, we've been given the Words of Life, Words of Spirit.

We're commanded, indeed, invited to place our focus on Jesus, because he himself is the author and finisher of our faith. As we read in Ephesians 2:8-10, We're saved by grace through faith, and not that of ourselves, for it is a gift..... Jesus authors our faith.
For we are God's workmanship, created for good works, prepared from the foundation of the world that we should walk in them...... As we further read on Phil. 1:6-- Knowing this, that he which began a good work in us, will complete it in the day of Christ....... thus, Jesus is the Finisher of our faith, ensuring that we make it home to be with Him.

As Paul tells us in 2 Timothy 1:12-----For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.


He's able to keep that which we commit to him, until that day. Which is exactly what Jesus told us in John 17. The Father can hold on to us, and not lose us. This is why Jesus asked him to sanctify us through his word..... to set us apart to be his people.


Do these, and you will be as a well-watered vine, planted by rivers of living water. Psalm 1, Jeremiah 17:5-10, and John 15.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
The genuinely great thing about the gospel is that God knows our problem. We are dead men/women walking, and apart from his provision, it's impossible for us to be or live in his righteousness. As PAul says in Ephesians 2:1--- we are dead in sin and trespass. But he has made us alive in Christ.
Paul tells Timothy that there are a people who have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof, and as a result, cannot live godly lives.

Peter tells us how we can live godly lives, and experience success in doing so. 2 Peter 1:2-13.

1- increase our knowledge of God and Jesus.
How? Hosea tells us that God's People perish because of a lack of knowledge. He then tells us that because the priests rejected God's LAws, and words, he would reject them, and forget their children. Hosea 4:6.
So, it seems to me that the means through which we increase our knowledge of God and Jesus is to read. Read the bible, and pray. Pray regularly.
Also, engage in regular gathering with the saints in Christ. Hebrews tells us that we need to make regular assembly with the saints a regular practice.
2- learn God's Word.
We see in verse 4 that God has given to us many exceedingly great and precious promises, and that by those promises, we may become partakers of His Divine Nature, and escape the corruption that is in this world because of lust/evil desires.
3- Having learned the above, we are now freed to focus on adding virtue to our faith, adding knowledge to our virtue, adding self-control to knowledge, adding perseverance to self-control, adding godliness to perseverance, adding brotherly kindness to persistence, and adding love to brotherly kindness.
In doing this, we may ensure that we will experience great success in our walk in Christ. As we read--- if these things be in us and abound, we shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

4- the bad news is that if we lack these things, we'll lose sight, and indeed become short-sighted, having forgotten that we've been--- past tense--- cleansed from our former sins.
It's easier than many realize that regular, daily, consistent reminders are needed to ensure we don't lose sight of our present life with Jesus, and future life in eternity, and get bound up in our past, being trapped by our old sins, and beaten with shame and guilt.

5- Thankfully, God seeks to ensure that we get it, so we may indeed experience the success of godliness, and actually never stumble.

6- so important is this, that Peter has told us that he'll take great pains to remind us, so we don't lost sight of Jesus.

So...... put aside the sins which so easily besets, and push towards the prize of the upward call of God in Christ, looking forward, forgetting that which is behind, looking to Jesus, who is the author and finisher of our faith.
 

Hark

Active member
Ok, so cluelessness is the problem here.

You first have to show where the sin is, and why my job is to be a sin sniffer, instead of focusing on following Jesus.
Only God can cause the increase. I know this and yet I still continue when posters do not heed nor hear the reproofs.
I think we're done here.
You're so focused on your own sin, that you can't see what following Jesus entails.
I apologize for "whacking you" as you claimed. I apologize for not addressing my concern for you in meekness and gentleness in seeking your good even though one can rebuke harshly so they can be sound in the faith.

2 Timothy 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Titus 1:This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

Therefore I apologize for going beyond the second admonition. Only God can recover. Not me.
He's able to keep that which we commit to him, until that day. Which is exactly what Jesus told us in John 17. The Father can hold on to us, and not lose us. This is why Jesus asked him to sanctify us through his word..... to set us apart to be his people.

Do these, and you will be as a well-watered vine, planted by rivers of living water. Psalm 1, Jeremiah 17:5-10, and John 15.
I apologize for recognizing but not acknowledging when no one is hearing His words here so why should I believe anyone will hear my words here after the second admonition? Truly I must have been resorting to my own power when I was not gentle nor serving Him in meekness in regards to you or any one else here after the second admonition?
The genuinely great thing about the gospel is that God knows our problem.

6- so important is this, that Peter has told us that he'll take great pains to remind us, so we don't lost sight of Jesus.


So...... put aside the sins which so easily besets, and push towards the prize of the upward call of God in Christ, looking forward, forgetting that which is behind, looking to Jesus, who is the author and finisher of our faith.
I believe those saints left behind are still saved. Obviously to me I am failing to see that is His work too for why I should reject after that second admonition & withdraw from the forum to be separate from those who do not hear to avoid them & follow Jesus.

Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. 10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; 11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

It was vain for me to go after you after the second admonition; even vainer still for refusing to see that you do not hear His words; therefore Christ in you is correct about withdrawing. He led you to share to admonish me to let you and others go & follow Him.

What He has led me to share is done. Whether or not He causes the increase after I am gone is on Him to do or not, but those left behind are still saved. He is helping me to repent of my vanity and my carnal attempts in the flesh to reason with others by His words especially after the second admonition.

So I am replying to ask you for forgiveness for "whacking you" by my pointing out the error not in gentleness nor in meekness from the start. That was my sin against the Lord and not just against you. It got worse when I went beyond the second admonition and even trying a different tact by asking you what was to me, reasonable questions for you to explain "your" following Jesus. Forgive me.


Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

I had asked Jesus & the Father in Jesus's name for forgiveness & I had received it. I had asked Him to help me to repent and to stay repented by staying away from this forum when obviously posters do not hear me, let alone His words. He is doing it now as I withdraw from all other the alerts since my last visit, tempting me to respond, but He led me to apologize to you & ask for forgiveness.

Whether or not you forgive me, is up to you, because I will not be returning to see your reply, but you should be aware of this.

Matthew 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

I cannot help you nor convince you to heed His words, but I know I am forgiven by Jesus Christ & He is helping me to leave others in His care.

So I leave you & the rest in this forum in God's hands, brother. He will continue His work even in those left behind from the rapture. Goodbye.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Only God can cause the increase. I know this and yet I still continue when posters do not heed nor hear the reproofs.
Only God can cause the increase..... are you aware of the context of that passage?
It's regarding people being saved. 1 Corinthians 3.

Here's something you need to pay close attention to.

1Co 3:10 WEB According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another builds on it. But let each man be careful how he builds on it.

You've neither laid the foundation, nor are building on it. You do however need to be careful how you build upon this.





I apologize for "whacking you" as you claimed. I apologize for not addressing my concern for you in meekness and gentleness in seeking your good even though one can rebuke harshly so they can be sound in the faith.
I simply asked you to clarify what you're saying, because the only thing that is making any sense is that you have a problem with Calvary Chapel.
Everything else that you have stated has been a lot of jumbled up and incoherent comments which are disconnected.

2 Timothy 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
Exactly. So, I'm asking questions about what you're saying so that you may be understood. You however have not done this.

Titus 1:This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
Which is exactly what I've done here solely because you have not been clear about what the problem you have.
Therefore I apologize for going beyond the second admonition. Only God can recover. Not me.
Except that you have not even once shown me that I have sinned, nor what my sin is.
The only thing you have done is to rail on Calvary Chapel.

I apologize for recognizing but not acknowledging when no one is hearing His words here so why should I believe anyone will hear my words here after the second admonition? Truly I must have been resorting to my own power when I was not gentle nor serving Him in meekness in regards to you or any one else here after the second admonition?
Oh, your words have been heard. Which is exactly why I have repeatedly asked you to clarify your issues. You've repeatedly failed to do this.

I believe those saints left behind are still saved. Obviously to me I am failing to see that is His work too for why I should reject after that second admonition & withdraw from the forum to be separate from those who do not hear to avoid them & follow Jesus.
Then go follow Jesus.
Because this too has absolutely nothing to do with what I stated.

Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. 10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; 11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
Yep. Great passage. And?

It was vain for me to go after you after the second admonition; even vainer still for refusing to see that you do not hear His words; therefore Christ in you is correct about withdrawing. He led you to share to admonish me to let you and others go & follow Him.
The problem here is that you have repeatedly failed to make your points clear.
Your ideas have been gibberish.

What He has led me to share is done. Whether or not He causes the increase after I am gone is on Him to do or not, but those left behind are still saved. He is helping me to repent of my vanity and my carnal attempts in the flesh to reason with others by His words especially after the second admonition.
According to 1 Corinthians 14, God is a God of peace and not confusion.

1Co 14:33 WEB for God is not a God of confusion, but of peace, as in all the assemblies of the saints.

So, I don't believe for a single heartbeat that God sent you, or led you here. If he had, your posts would have been coherent, clear, well-stated, and made sense.

They did not.


So I am replying to ask you for forgiveness for "whacking you" by my pointing out the error not in gentleness nor in meekness from the start. That was my sin against the Lord and not just against you. It got worse when I went beyond the second admonition and even trying a different tact by asking you what was to me, reasonable questions for you to explain "your" following Jesus. Forgive me.
I never said anything about you whacking me. I said that you're like a drunk playing darts and you have completely failed to hit the dart board. You've hit everything else in the bar. But not once actually hit the dart board.
I've repeatedly asked for to clarify what you're saying.

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?
Great passage.
You however have not shown what this is applicable to.

I had asked Jesus & the Father in Jesus's name for forgiveness & I had received it. I had asked Him to help me to repent and to stay repented by staying away from this forum when obviously posters do not hear me, let alone His words. He is doing it now as I withdraw from all other the alerts since my last visit, tempting me to respond, but He led me to apologize to you & ask for forgiveness.
I too turned to God from my sin, and placed my trust in Jesus, so I may be made the righteousness of God in Jesus. And he heard and received me.
As it's written in John 6.
He nobody can come to him unless the Father draws them, and he will not turn away anyone who comes to him.

Whether or not you forgive me, is up to you, because I will not be returning to see your reply, but you should be aware of this.
My forgiveness is not what you need here.
God's cleansing is what you need.
As far as I can see, you haven't sinned against me.
Your sin is between you and God.

Matthew 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Yep.

I cannot help you nor convince you to heed His words, but I know I am forgiven by Jesus Christ & He is helping me to leave others in His care.
If your words had any clarity, then we'd be having a different conversation.
It's their lack of clarity which has resulted in this conversation.


So I leave you & the rest in this forum in God's hands, brother. He will continue His work even in those left behind from the rapture. Goodbye.
Au revoir.
He is indeed continuing his work through the preaching of the gospel.
 

Nic

Active member
Having considered this further, a number of biblical ideas come to mind here.
Hope
Courage
Joy
Peace/Shalom
Sorrow
Grief
Being valued

While there is subjectivity in them, they are emotions.
Hope is a very powerful emotion, giving us the courage to move forward, in spite of great odds against us.
Courage too is an emotion, just like fear, but bolstered by hope and faith (the belief that God is with us, and will, according to his word, give us what we need to achieve his purposes, or the purpose of the push forward).
Joy, a deep, abiding sense of God's Love, goodness, righteousness, mercy, and encouragement
Peace/Shalom- a deep abiding sense of wholeness, which is life-inducing, life-enhancing, "a feeling that all is right" where it actually matters.
Sorrow and grief are knowns.
Being valued, having meaning to another, mostly by God.
these however also go beyond emotion, and are objectively based.

So, these are what I was referring to when I discuss mystical, in following Jesus.

I think that while there are extreme practices, which take people away from God, and trust in Jesus, it's quite often forgotten that when Jesus saves us from our sin, he's making our spirits alive.

Remember that in Genesis 2:7, we read that God created Adam a living soul. This means that everything Adam needed to live, was created in him. This life was included in Eve too.

God told Adam in Gen 2 that in the day he ate the fruit of the t ree of the knowledge of good and evil, dying, he would die.
I've long understood this to be the death of his living soul. The part of him which interacted with God died that day, and we inherited it, genetically, being passed through our parent's lineage, specifically the lineage of the fathers, dating all the way back to Adam.

In John 3:3-5, we read that Jesus tells us--- unless we are born again we can neither see/perceive nor enter God's Kingdom.
In 1 Peter, we read that we are born again by God's Word, which is an "incorruptible seed."
Paul tells us in Ephesians 2:1 that we were dead in our sins and trespasses, but we've now been made alive through Jesus Christ.
In reading over the years, I saw in Ezekiel 36:25-27 that God was going to cleanse our sin, remove our old stony heart of flesh, and give us a new heart of flesh, as well as giving us a new spirit, and his own Holy Spirit, to "Cause" us to keep his commandments, which Paul alludes to in Romans 8:4-8, Galatians 5, and the fruits of the Spirit.


Sin has not only killed our spirit/living soul, cutting us off from God, but it has corrupted our emotions, and psychological state. Which is why humans impacted by sin, are all messed up--- your description of depression, people whose lives have been made a complete and total mess--- drug abuse, alcoholism, sexual addition, etc......

Thus, with the new birth, we are restored spiritually, and that spiritual restoration starts the restoration of the heart (which includes the emotions, and the will, self-control, etc.....)

So, in fact, the whole human being is being restored.
This includes a restoration of our thinking, our emotions, etc....

So, yes, I am a "practitioner" of the mystical. As should all who follow Jesus.
Not as an end-all, be all, but as the "fruit" of their walk/relationship with Jesus/the Father.
Remember--- we're adopted into the family of God, through faith in Jesus.
This means that we've become the brothers and sisters of Jesus, and sons/daughters of God.
Hi Steve, No one is discounting we are emotional beings. Where mysticism is concerned it's whether or not the role of theology is played out in a person's heart.
I give you small introductory video and if interested further, I'll be happy to comment as much as I can to further clarify.

p.s.
A tidbit for you re. biblical hope would be that biblical hope has no component of doubt attached to it as we have in today's use of the same word. Biblical hope was an expression of confidence in the gospel message and the promises therein. The one who makes the promise, fulfills the promise. This is biblical hope.

Nic🙂
 
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Nic

Active member
Hi Steve, No one is discounting we are emotional beings. Where mysticism is concerned it's whether or not the role of theology is played out in a person's heart.
I give you small introductory video and if interested further, I'll be happy to comment as much as I can to further clarify.

p.s.
A tidbit for you re. biblical hope would be that biblical hope has no component of doubt attached to it as we have in today's use of the same word. Biblical hope was an expression of confidence in the gospel message and the promises therein. The one who makes the promise, fulfills the promise. This is biblical hope.

Nic🙂
In serving as a brief followup on the role of emotions with deference to God and man. Note magisterial and ministerial distinctions in the following short clip, thank you.

Nic🙂
 
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