My two week binge on Calvary Chapel

The lack of alarm on your part in regards to that church's commitment is why I was sharing my concern.
Hmm......
I learned a long time ago that I'm not Jesus' church police, that I needed to go around whacking people over the head for not being as diligent as I think they need to be.
It's part of being able to Trust in God's Spirit to ensure that those who are his, actually follow Him. As you referred to--- Resting in Him.
A couple of reasons.
1- Philippians 3:15

15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you.


2- Hebrews 12:1-2

1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

and
John 21:20-22

20 Then Peter, turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following, who also had leaned on His breast at the supper, and said, “Lord, who is the one who betrays You?” 21 Peter, seeing him, said to Jesus, “But Lord, what about this man?”

22 Jesus said to him, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.”


First, God is quite capable of ensuring his people pay attention to what matters, and if we get off the narrow path, he knows how to reach us.
Second, We're not following anyone but Jesus. If we start paying attention to what others are doing, we're no longer following Jesus.
Jesus was quite clear to Pete.

What difference does it make to you what I have him doing--- you follow me!

Believe me, after 44 years of learning to follow Jesus, I have a lot of--- wait! What about them! questions I could be asking. He's constantly reminding me--- I didn't ask you about them. I asked you to follow me!



Because you profess your desire to follow Jesus. You repeated the desire for me to follow Jesus.
Yep.
Very important. That however requires we take the time to learn what matters to Him, and not what we think matters.
As Paul tells us in 2 Corinthians 10:3-6

3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, 5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, 6 and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled.

I can't punish disobedience until my obedience is fulfilled.
So, I must first do as Jesus said to Peter---- You follow Me!
To follow Jesus, I must learn.
Being a Jesus follower is a student. The word used in the gospels, which is translated, disciple, is the word- mathetes. It's the word for student. It could also be translated- apprentice.
I say apprentice, because a mathetes isn't only a student who sits in a class. It's a student who works along side his master. In our case-- Jesus is our master. So, we work alongside Jesus, to observe how he works, and does what his Father has him doing. Jesus then tells us--- as I have done, so you do likewise. Just like a journeyman of a craft tells their apprentice.
So, the first thing we need to do is to recognize that we are the student/apprentice of Jesus, and according to John 14:26, 16:12-15, Isaiah 54:13, and numerous other passages, we're going to be students/apprentices for the rest of our lives.
So, take the time to be a mathetes. An apprentice, who is constantly learning from Jesus.
God's Spirit is going to be our teacher, and He will only give us what Jesus has given him to give us.

You seem not to see how His words comes true because by that commitment is the knowledge of sin and by that commitment, Jesus warned us not to do anything by the flesh in regards to our relationship with Him for He will do it.
I see a lot of things, but the manner with which you presented them, they did not convey a clear and coherent idea. So, I've asked you to clean them up, so I can see what you're saying in a manner that shows clarity of thought.


The fact that you are unmoved by the correction by the scriptures only confirms my concern for you. You have gone through great lengths in your reply to me but if you do not see how my experiences confirms His words, and what He has done for me to bear more fruit, then I have to leave you in His hands.
Considering that I read the scriptures, and pray daily, I'm not ignoring what you've said. I've stated that your ideas are incoherent.
Furthermore, I've "paid attention" to such warnings before, only to be dragged off into a field, and be beaten up by ungodly people. So, having learned those lessons, I am doing what Jesus said more closely--- guard your heart with all diligence.....


You keep saying to me "Follow Jesus". I say to you, "Trust Jesus as your Good Shepherd to help you follow Him & your joy may be full."
Great, and what if I tell you I am indeed doing exactly that?


If you hardly see me saying the same thing as you are saying, then you are not referring to our faith in Jesus Christ.
Your ideas lack clarity.

Our society is built around needless boastful oaths, vows, & promises.
I stopped using oaths, vows, and promises decades ago. With the exception of my vows to my wife in our marriage, I don't find them constructive, and in fact, I actually find them destructive, because I learned a long time ago that I am a sinner, in need of a savior, who can free me from my sin, and old sin nature. As he said--- I now let my yes be yes, and my no be no.

The enemy over time, has added marriage vows made by the couple's in adding to God's covenant of marriage and see nothing wrong with it. Society & courtrooms add vows, even swearing on it, and yet God cannot help them tell the whole truth when they are ordered by the judge to answer in a yes or no answer or be held in contempt of court.
Well, if you're opposed to marriage vows, then your issue on that is not with me.

Even churches add promises for the office of deacons & elders and that was not the qualification for fulfilling that office in scripture.
I'm neither, so I'm not concerned with this.
that you are raises the question to me if you fancy yourself a church police officer, jury, and judge.
James tells us in his letter that we're not to judge.

11 Do not speak evil of one another, brethren. He who speaks evil of a brother and judges his brother, speaks evil of the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. 12 There is one Lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy. Who are you to judge another?

So, I'd encourage you to become a follower, a mathetes.


Freemasons gets in everywhere as religious men wants to take advantage of the zeal of people in bringing them into bondage in doing the right thing. Making vows does not guarantee anything nor does it help anyone to be good or to do good or otherwise, Jesus died in vain.
Wouldn't know. I've never been a freemason. I have some older brothers in Christ who used to be freemasons. They've long since ceased their affiliations with the lodge.

Believers have gone astray in Freemason country but Jesus is Lord and will deliver those saints who recognize the snare in being overcharged for the cares of this life and rest in Him so they are ready and willing to go to escape what is coming on the earth when He comes.
I don't live in Freemason country. the Jesus followers out here have other issues.


Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
An absolutely fantastic passage!
My daily prayer.....

To be accounted worthy to escape the things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.
 
Hmm......
I learned a long time ago that I'm not Jesus' church police, that I needed to go around whacking people over the head for not being as diligent as I think they need to be.
I do wonder how you see Paul then in his rebuke of the church for ignoring a brother having his father's wife in 1 Corinthians 5 th chapter.
It's part of being able to Trust in God's Spirit to ensure that those who are his, actually follow Him. As you referred to--- Resting in Him.
Not every believer is awake. The Lord was patient with me for a long time before I came to a place when He had me able to receive His words to prune me. When He reveals the truth to me...He still had to show broader applications, but there is no way for me to open your eyes if you are not in that place to receive the meat for you to discern good & evil by His words if He still has you on milk.

I had really thought you were in that place by Him to use the meat but instead, you seem to be defending yourself by going after me rather than digesting what was shared for why a believer's commitment is a man made bondage that speaks of himself where he gest the glory & praise from men for keeping it then and thus a false witness..
A couple of reasons.
1- Philippians 3:15

15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you.
Like I had posted. I was sharing my concern for you as you seem to think little to nothing whenever a believer or church brag about their commitment to Christ. You gloss over His words for why it is a false witness for any believer to speak of commitment in his or their testimony.
2- Hebrews 12:1-2

1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
In this case regarding the crisis of faith, you are not looking to Him to discern with Him by the meat of His words why a believer's commitment is of evil.
and
John 21:20-22

20 Then Peter, turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following, who also had leaned on His breast at the supper, and said, “Lord, who is the one who betrays You?” 21 Peter, seeing him, said to Jesus, “But Lord, what about this man?”

22 Jesus said to him, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.”
I believe He is able to help me leave every unrepentant saint & former believer behind when the Bridegroom comes

As it is, He also says to Feed My Sheep as He enables me to and have opportunity, but it is still on Him to cause the increase. It is His ministry.
First, God is quite capable of ensuring his people pay attention to what matters, and if we get off the narrow path, he knows how to reach us.
Second, We're not following anyone but Jesus. If we start paying attention to what others are doing, we're no longer following Jesus.
Jesus was quite clear to Pete.
Showing love for one another in correcting one another is seeking their good in the Lord so that they may obtain the eternal glory that comes with our salvation which is to be received by the Bridegroom as that vessel unto honor in His House rather than left behind in being "damned" as vessels unto dishonor in His House for not being ready, but still in His House. If you want to study that truth you can by reading with Him 2 Timothy 2:10-26
What difference does it make to you what I have him doing--- you follow me!
I believe the application of His message is to be ready to leave others behind and follow Me Home, but that does not mean, when you caught a brother in a trespass, you just ignore him & follow Me when Jesus left this instructions for those "little ones" that have gone astray.

Matthew 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. 11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. 15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

So applying His words to mean the opposite of what you are saying is not righty dividing the word of truth.
Believe me, after 44 years of learning to follow Jesus, I have a lot of--- wait! What about them! questions I could be asking. He's constantly reminding me--- I didn't ask you about them. I asked you to follow me!
Then reconsider your words for how you are replying to me. What are you doing posting like this? Is this your attempt to correct me in His love? How is that not applying that message in ignoring me and just follow Jesus in what you are trying to post to me to do? It is hypocrisy

Galatians 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

Look, brother. I understand getting caught flat footed on an iniquity can be unsettling. It doesn't mean the Lord is not with you. As it was for me, so it is for you; you still trust your church leaders and your favorites in Christian leadership to not have led you astray. You do not want to be in the wrong. You need to lean on Him for help to apply His words to see that they did, and you need His help to forgive them too.

Just as we need His forgiveness for leading others astray by leading any to make a commitment to Christ rather than teaching others in looking to Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd to help us to follow Him. We are to correct others or else where is the love of Christ in our hearts?

So there will be a time to apply what you are saying and that is when He comes as the Bridegroom when He shall help us leave all our cares and loved ones behind for the Marriage Supper above as that is what is meant to follow Him if He so chooses to leave them behind.
 
Hello Steve B and Hark, I think you both bring good content to the conversation so in fairness to Steve I'll also rep his comments as well. Seeing that today I find myself to be outside of American fundamentalism, I have issues with the mysticism among other things. Here's a read I'd recommend and yes I'm biased and it's by a Lutheran addressing the universal church at large. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/13772008-broken
 
Yep.
Very important. That however requires we take the time to learn what matters to Him, and not what we think matters.
As Paul tells us in 2 Corinthians 10:3-6

3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, 5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, 6 and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled.

I can't punish disobedience until my obedience is fulfilled.
So, I must first do as Jesus said to Peter---- You follow Me!
To follow Jesus, I must learn.
Being a Jesus follower is a student. The word used in the gospels, which is translated, disciple, is the word- mathetes. It's the word for student. It could also be translated- apprentice.
I say apprentice, because a mathetes isn't only a student who sits in a class. It's a student who works along side his master. In our case-- Jesus is our master. So, we work alongside Jesus, to observe how he works, and does what his Father has him doing. Jesus then tells us--- as I have done, so you do likewise. Just like a journeyman of a craft tells their apprentice.
So, the first thing we need to do is to recognize that we are the student/apprentice of Jesus, and according to John 14:26, 16:12-15, Isaiah 54:13, and numerous other passages, we're going to be students/apprentices for the rest of our lives.
So, take the time to be a mathetes. An apprentice, who is constantly learning from Jesus.
God's Spirit is going to be our teacher, and He will only give us what Jesus has given him to give us.
Do consider the parable of the talents. In 44 years of a follower of Jesus, learning of Him and His words, would require you to share what you have learned with others, especially seeing if that truth is lacking in other believer's knowledge.

You are attempting now to share what you believe He wants you to share but in opposing to yourself without realizing it. How can I apply your words if you are not doing that? So the end result of all your 44 years of learning as if that is the only thing I can share is not sound because for me to apply that is for me to never learn that from you for you to set that example; just forget about others that are astray & follow Jesus.
I see a lot of things, but the manner with which you presented them, they did not convey a clear and coherent idea. So, I've asked you to clean them up, so I can see what you're saying in a manner that shows clarity of thought.
Considering that I read the scriptures, and pray daily, I'm not ignoring what you've said. I've stated that your ideas are incoherent.
Furthermore, I've "paid attention" to such warnings before, only to be dragged off into a field, and be beaten up by ungodly people. So, having learned those lessons, I am doing what Jesus said more closely--- guard your heart with all diligence.....
Have you ever considered asking Jesus to help you understand where I am coming from?

And usually when someone wants me to clarify something, they ask a question on what points they needed clarity on.

You did... wanting to see & understand why I was presenting commitment as an evil thing, but you became vague when you addressing in general towards the major parts of my posting regarding the scripture as if you do not see how they apply.

To follow Jesus, you need to ask Him how His words apply.
Great, and what if I tell you I am indeed doing exactly that?

Your ideas lack clarity.

I stopped using oaths, vows, and promises decades ago. With the exception of my vows to my wife in our marriage, I don't find them constructive, and in fact, I actually find them destructive, because I learned a long time ago that I am a sinner, in need of a savior, who can free me from my sin, and old sin nature. As he said--- I now let my yes be yes, and my no be no.
Good. Praise Him! Then what you had learned, in that regards, apply also to the added promises to God's covenant of marriage.
Well, if you're opposed to marriage vows, then your issue on that is not with me.
No. The issue is with Him. When it comes to a man's covenant, no one is allowed to add or subtract from it. Now imagine God's covenant of marriage. He is the One that binds you two together; not your added vows. If you apply how destructive other vows & promises can be,

Galatians 3:15Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

Psalm 50:14 Offer unto God thanksgiving; and pay thy vows unto the most High: 15 And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me. 16 But unto the wicked God saith, What hast thou to do to declare my statutes, or that thou shouldest take my covenant in thy mouth? 17 Seeing thou hatest instruction, and casteth my words behind thee.

Jesus warned us in Matthew 5:33-37 and that has to include the extra vows to God's covenant of marriage.


The question you have to ask yourself why adding those vows to marriage is not seen just as destructive when couples can keep a list of wrongs in regards to those vows? The devil has been having a time of destroying couple's marriages when couples look to each other in relations to those vows rather than to God to help them in the marriage He had performed in joining them as one. Does not love comes from Jesus Christ? Is not love a fruit of the Spirit? Then why look to a vow to generate that love from the flesh? Epic fail, right?
I'm neither, so I'm not concerned with this.
that you are raises the question to me if you fancy yourself a church police officer, jury, and judge.
James tells us in his letter that we're not to judge.

11 Do not speak evil of one another, brethren. He who speaks evil of a brother and judges his brother, speaks evil of the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. 12 There is one Lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy. Who are you to judge another?

So, I'd encourage you to become a follower, a mathetes.
You are not rightly dividing the word of truth here.

What was James doing in chapter 2 but rebuking the church for mistreating the poor?

But let us address the 4th chapter in its entirety from which you pulled those verses out of context.

From verse 1, James is addressing how believers were fighting against each other, being in friendship with the world being like that. One can get an idea of that kind of infighting when believers get mad for being ripped off as Paul explains it. 1 Corinthians 6 And he did meddle into their personal lives when rebuking the sin of fornication at the end of that chapter too.

James at the end of chapter 4 in verses 13-17 was warning believers about how they make plans for tomorrow as it was of evil, and putting off a good deed that can be done today rather than planning on doing it tomorrow was also of evil.

So is that James speaking of evil of other believers for doing that? Is James a hypocrite? So what evil was James speaking of in verses 11-12. In relations to all the fighting within from verse 1 of that chapter, speaking evil means to do harm to the other for why James is against that kind of judging. Proof?

James 4:1From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? 2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.

So no. You cannot apply verses 11-12 to mean we are to ignore what others are doing and move on to follow Jesus when James is correcting them in that chapter not to judge in the manner of condemnation by seeking to kill and to war against other believers.
Wouldn't know. I've never been a freemason. I have some older brothers in Christ who used to be freemasons. They've long since ceased their affiliations with the lodge.
Good to hear. Are they preaching against it, warning other believers not to get involved, et alone leave it or are they applying your way of thinking.. just forget about them and that evil, and follow Jesus? Again, I remind you of the parable of the talents. They should share what Jesus has taught them for why they left.
I don't live in Freemason country. the Jesus followers out here have other issues.
I know nobody is going to confirm what I have said but by principle, it mirrors Freemason country rather than Christian. Our leaders were of a Christian mindset allowing liberty for sinners to seek or not to seek after Him, but for all of the vows in public offices, that is not following Jesus.
An absolutely fantastic passage!
My daily prayer.....

To be accounted worthy to escape the things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.
That should also includes the many snares like added vows to marriage that would overcharge someone not to leave. So I hope you take what you have learned and apply that to the added marriage vows, ask for forgiveness, ask Jesus to set you both free, and lean on Him to take you when it is time.
 
Hello Steve B and Hark, I think you both bring good content to the conversation so in fairness to Steve I'll also rep his comments as well. Seeing that today I find myself to be outside of American fundamentalism, I have issues with the mysticism among other things. Here's a read I'd recommend and yes I'm biased and it's by a Lutheran addressing the universal church at large. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/13772008-broken
Thank you for sharing, Brother Nic.

Feel free to confirm the good points brought by the both of us as I am hoping for iron to sharpen iron is the Lord at work.
 
Thank you for sharing, Brother Nic.

Feel free to confirm the good points brought by the both of us as I am hoping for iron to sharpen iron is the Lord at work.
Perhaps if the thread was in the general theology forum, I'd be more inclined. That said, a question I continue to have towards both of you, would be all these things considered necessary (if I'm recalling what I've read correctly, I don't sleep much these days) to what end? In my view unbelief condemns and that's pretty much it.
 
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Perhaps if the thread was in the general theology forum, I'd be more inclined. That said, a question I continue to have towards both of you, would be all these things considered necessary (if I'm recalling what I've read correctly, I don't sleep much these days) to what end? In my view unbelief condemns and that's pretty much it.
Well, I am sure members of Calvary Chapel are allowed to discuss issues and practices and their teachings within as well as those outside of it, looking for a church to join can ask questions or point out errors in it to see how the church by practice address or ignore it..

Do you know if this is the mentality or the theology of Calvary Chapel to ignore other believers where they are at with their walk in the Lord and just concentrate on themselves in following Jesus? It might explain why there may be false prophets in it and yet they are to ignore them while in fellowship even though scripture does teach believers and churches not todo that.

Ephesians 5:10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

Thank you for sharing.
 
Well, I am sure members of Calvary Chapel are allowed to discuss issues and practices and their teachings within as well as those outside of it, looking for a church to join can ask questions or point out errors in it to see how the church by practice address or ignore it..

Do you know if this is the mentality or the theology of Calvary Chapel to ignore other believers where they are at with their walk in the Lord and just concentrate on themselves in following Jesus? It might explain why there may be false prophets in it and yet they are to ignore them while in fellowship even though scripture does teach believers and churches not todo that.

Ephesians 5:10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

Thank you for sharing.
Calvary Chapel pastors are easier to nail down. The rank file believe lots of different things although the goal, at least in part, would be to embrace the views of the now departed Chuck Smith founder, under the slogan of like-minded believers.
As far as your question goes. Calvary Chapel has a low view of theology in preferring to de-emphasize it all for the simple sake of abiding in him. All you need is Jesus is a common theme. In my opinion, that is somewhat debatable. You hear all we need is Jesus, then we hear you need to be abiding according to scripture. That last yoke is law and bondage. There is also the need to get along but not officially among themselves, but that isn't ubiquitous. Cliques are common but not just there. There tends to be smugness with some or more pastors I've known and then among some or more that would emulate them. Although in fairness, I've met and visited with some pastors of Calvary Chapel who weren't of that ilk and fortunately most of the rank and file weren't as a rule. I think in part pastors are expected to be a bit smug as if they have the inside track on relationship with God and to some degree are showman towards their hearers. Its expected of the pastors so they in a sense play the role (perform) and its cyclical feeding off each other. I've seen this worse in other groups (non-Calvary Chapel persons). Wow. Did I digress! BTW, Calvary Chapel doesn't own an exclusiveness on smugness. Sadly that's somewhat if not universal and some are worse than others.
Getting back to your question, I think it comes down to the individual and the sincerity and kindness they choose to walk in and of course what they personally emphasize. I will say this, Calvary Chapel tends to be a good works conscience group of believers and I mean that as a high compliment.
To your point, I too agree the body of Christ should be treated as the body of Christ even under different umbrellas. Sometimes those differences don't allow for conversations to go too far forward, other times you're blessed, but the word of God will silence the mouths (Rom 3:19), so seeds if nothing else are sown or watered. I tend to agree with you.

Rom 3:19, ESV
Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.
Contrary perhaps to the fundamentalist, I believe the law and the gospel go well beyond just getting people saved.

Nic
 
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A believer's commitment and a church's commitment is not of Him. We are to follow Him by faith that He will help us to follow him.
What are you talking about when you use the term- commitment?
You use these terms, but never provide definitions of what you mean.

Just sharing as He enables me of what He has done for me of what I could not have done by keeping a commitment or any other man made bondage.
Sharing what you think you know, but are not able, or willing to clarify, so we can benefit from your wisdom does us no good. It's like a man who speaks in a foreign tongue to a group of non-native speakers. It's like babbling.

I testify that I cannot convince you since it is on God to cause the increase.
Your job was never to convince me. It's to providfe a coherent, and clearly stated message from which I'm able to make a clear choice.
You haven't even done that.

So ask Jesus about what I have shared and how I had applied His words by His grace & by His help, because this is about how we follow Him; not by the deeds of the law of doing the best we can in keeping that commitment but by faith in Jesus Christ to finish what He has started in us. That is how we rest in Him when we cease from our works.
Yeah. I did that. He says I can ignore you because you're talking in babblings.

I speak no more of that commitment to Jesus Christ but speak of my faith in Jesus Christ of His commitment to me per the New Covenant that is not lacking anything that He needs something from me as if He has confidence in me to do something other than to believe in Him for everything.
And yet, you have no idea what you're saying, because you don't provide clarity of thought and coherence.

And our believing in Him is a work of God also. See John 3:18-21 & John 6:44 & Matthew 11:25-27

There is no way any man can speak of his commitment to God whereas he is not glorified for keeping it; thus it is not of faith nor of Him at all.
My commitment to God is based entirely on his commitment to me, as evidenced by what he did in providing his Son to die for me.
Death is pretty much the ultimate commitment. It doesn't get any more committed than that.

As far as his coherent commitment.... Peter tells us in his second letter.

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.​

We can read, and see that as we increase our knowledge, and experience of God, and Jesus, His Grace and His Peace is increased towards us, multiplicatively. We can experience this, because he has committed to us everything we need to live a life of godliness. How can we know this? Through our knowledge and experience of him in our lives.
And this is possible, because of his glory and virtue. His Glory and Virtue have provided us with many exceedingly great and precious promises, which make it possible for us to become partakers of His Divine Nature. Further making it possible for us to escape the corruption that is in this world because of evil desires. Thus, it's God's commitment to us, which makes our becoming followers of Jesus possible, as well as his commitment to us, that make our escaping our sin possible.



5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.​

Then, in verses 5-8, we're engendered to "give all diligence" (our response to Him, for what he's committed to us), which itself is a commitment to Him, to add faith, virtue, knowledge, self-control, perseverance, godliness, brotherly kindness, and love. Pete further states that in giving all diligence to adding each of these to our lives, we can experience great success in our walk in Christ.
What I find curious is that he said the lack of these attributes in our lives means that we've lost sight of what God did on our behalf. I.e., that he previously cleansed us from our sin.


10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.​

Then here we note that if we give ourselves over to focusing on developing those attributes in our lives, we can have a guarantee from God that we'll never stumble.... And, to top it off--- that we'll receive an abundant entrance into the everlasting Kingdom of Jesus, our Lord and Savior.
When I consider this, I find myself being reminded of the massive parades that took place when the soldiers came home from World War II.


12 For this reason I will not be negligent to remind you always of these things, though you know and are established in the present truth. 13 Yes, I think it is right, as long as I am in this tent, to stir you up by reminding you,

Seems like Pete's pretty committed to making sure we are reminded of these things, so we don't get stuck in the short-sightedness, and lose perspective of what God's Commitment is to us.

Paul further identifies numerous points where God's Commitment was complete and total to us, so we can commit ourselves to him, knowing that God is able to hold in trust that which we commit to him, against the day of Jesus' return.

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

2 Timothy 1:12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.

Colossians 3: 1 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

So..... I have no idea what kind of a commitment you're talking about, but it's explicitly because of God's commitment to us that we can commit to him our lives.

David says as much too.
Psalm 37
4 Delight yourself also in the LORD, And He shall give you the desires of your heart.
5 Commit your way to the LORD, Trust also in Him, And He shall bring it to pass.
6 He shall bring forth your righteousness as the light, And your justice as the noonday.


Psa 31:5 NKJV - Into Your hand I commit my spirit; You have redeemed me, O LORD God of truth.

As does Solomon

Pro 16:3 NKJV - Commit your works to the LORD, And your thoughts will be established.


Seems to me that commitment is a good thing. Iy YHVH can commit himself to us, by giving us his son to die for us, we should be able to commit ourselves to him, and rest in his commitment to us. As you noted in Philippians 1:6

being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;
 
I do wonder how you see Paul then in his rebuke of the church for ignoring a brother having his father's wife in 1 Corinthians 5 th chapter.
It's not that I don't see what Paul said. It's that I haven't had the unpleasant experience of having to deal with someone who is in this state. It's not a common practice for folks to show up, and say--- hey guys. I got the best and coolest deal. I get to screw my step mom, and my dad has no clue.
So, I can't do what Paul said we should do in this case.
Or, in other words, I wasn't assigned the task of being what we've long called-- a sin-sniffer.
So, telling me that I have a problem because I don't get told that there are people who are living in sin, that's a you problem. When someone comes to me, and confesses that they're living in sin, then I'll do as Paul tells us in Galatians 6:1-5

1 Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted. 2 Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. 3 For if anyone thinks himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4 But let each one examine his own work, and then he will have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another. 5 For each one shall bear his own load.​





Not every believer is awake.
Nope. This is why Paul tells us--- wake up sleeper, the day of our salvation is nearer than when we first believed.

The Lord was patient with me for a long time before I came to a place when He had me able to receive His words to prune me. When He reveals the truth to me...He still had to show broader applications, but there is no way for me to open your eyes if you are not in that place to receive the meat for you to discern good & evil by His words if He still has you on milk.
Well, you haven't provided any evidence that my eyes need to be opened. As I stated numerous times now--- you're all over the map, and my questions have resulted in vaguely stated responses, which do not result in clearly defined issues that are sins that I struggle with, nor solutions to what you think are problems, tied back to my post about my satisfaction with the biblical teaching I receive at my local Calvary Chapel.
The irony here of your posts, is that you have no relational connection with anyone here on this op, which would give us reason that you understand, let alone know us, beyond a general spiritual connection in Christ.
I.e., if you were a friend, with whom I interact at church, and see me regularly, and recognize a problem, then we could consider taking you more seriously. But you're just a stranger on the internet. And what's worse is that your ideas are totally disconnected to what this op was discussing prior to your showing up here.

I.e.,
my post, show me where you're getting all these issues you think I have.

I know the thing I like about the Calvary chapels I've attended is that they seek to make it about Jesus, and not cultural religion. I.e., they're not going to haggle you about catholicism, lutheranism, etc....​
It's allowed me to focus on learning to follow Jesus, and not be caught up in whether I'm a methodist, catholic, etc....​
This has opened the door for me to strip away all the denominationalisms that I've experienced in my life.​
Dust off your bible, pull up a seat, and have a talk with God. He'd love to hear from you.​
and according to Isaiah 54:13, and Matthew 11:28-30--- God, and Jesus are in the teaching business. Not as some tv preacher, but as a friend, who'd love to help you work things out.​

At Calvary chapel, the bible was presented as primary, so we could know God, on God's Terms. So, if knowing God on God's terms, and not men's is a problem with you, then just say so.


I had really thought you were in that place by Him to use the meat but instead, you seem to be defending yourself by going after me rather than digesting what was shared for why a believer's commitment is a man made bondage that speaks of himself where he gest the glory & praise from men for keeping it then and thus a false witness..
Ironically, Jesus said that His meat was to do the Will of Him who'd sent him. there's no meat in milk, as Paul told the Corinthians.
So, what's this meat you speak of?
I'm not "going after" you. I've now asked you a few times to make your points more coherent, and clear. So, please stop playing victim here. It's not a godly practice. Luke tells us in Acts 17:11 that the Bereans were more noble than the Thessalonians, because they searched the scriptures daily to see if what Paul was saying was true or not. Paul then told the thessalonians:

19 Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not despise prophecies. 21 Test all things; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.

So, I am not quenching God's Spirit. Nor am I despising your prophesying. I am testing what you're saying; I'm holding fast to t hat which is good, and making sure I abstain from every form of evil.

I have simply, and concisely asked you, a few times now, to make your ideas more coherent, and clear.

Like I had posted. I was sharing my concern for you as you seem to think little to nothing whenever a believer or church brag about their commitment to Christ. You gloss over His words for why it is a false witness for any believer to speak of commitment in his or their testimony.
And I appreciate your concern for me. But you haven't demonstrated a clear and coherent understanding of what you think my problem is.
I'm not commited to sin. I am not involved in ungodly activities. I walk in the Spirit, and engage in interacting with other saints in Christ, within, and beyond my fellowship at my local church/body of believers.
I've never been involved in any men's "lodges" such as Feeemasonry, Moose, Lion's Club, etc....
I've never been a catholic, lutheran, etc.... I grew up in the Methodist church, and left that in 1971-2. I've been learning to follow Jesus since 1977.
So. again, you're not even in the ballpark on godly instruction, or encouragement.

In all honesty, it's like you're throwing darts at a dart board, blindfolded, and in your attempts to hit the board, you keep missing.
You've hit the wall to the side. You've hit the host, and 2 of his attendants, several patrons, and you're working your way around the room, injuring numerous people, and now the front door just opened, and you've hit 3 patrons who just entered the room.
So...... you can either stop, or focus. At this point, I'm going to say that you need to dial it back, and focus.

Are you going to do that, or do you think that by continuing to randomly throw darts at people, you'll eventually hit the board?

In this case regarding the crisis of faith, you are not looking to Him to discern with Him by the meat of His words why a believer's commitment is of evil.
Ironically, I'm not having a crisis of faith. If I was, I have close friends I can talk to. I wouldn't talk to a stranger about it.

I believe He is able to help me leave every unrepentant saint & former believer behind when the Bridegroom comes
Ok.
I haven't left following Jesus. As we read in Hebrews 4, He's my high priest, and I come to his throne of Grace, quite frequently.

As it is, He also says to Feed My Sheep as He enables me to and have opportunity, but it is still on Him to cause the increase. It is His ministry.
Indeed he has. But you're not feeding. You're not even providing food. I've asked you numerous times now to focus, and make what you're saying more coherent, and clear.

Ever heard the phrase--- if there's a mist in the pulpit, there's a fog in the pew ?
It's an issue preachers have if they don't have a clear understanding of what they're teaching on. If they're not understanding, those who hear them will be totally confused, and not get it.
Well...... you're walking in a mist. So, I'm not even going to try to walk through the pea-soup fog that's out here. I've done that in the past, and experienced some catastrophic accidents as a result.
So, when you clear up your mist, and the fog dissipates, I'll be here.
 
Showing love for one another in correcting one another is seeking their good in the Lord so that they may obtain the eternal glory that comes with our salvation which is to be received by the Bridegroom as that vessel unto honor in His House rather than left behind in being "damned" as vessels unto dishonor in His House for not being ready, but still in His House. If you want to study that truth you can by reading with Him 2 Timothy 2:10-26
Indeed. But you're not showing love, by being so vague and ambiguous.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Timothy+2:10-26&version=KJV
I believe the application of His message is to be ready to leave others behind and follow Me Home, but that does not mean, when you caught a brother in a trespass, you just ignore him & follow Me when Jesus left this instructions for those "little ones" that have gone astray.
Well, I'm not following you home. You sound like you're lost, and I'm not wandering the halls of madness with a stranger.
I'd apologize, but as I said--- I've been in what we call-- pea soup fog, and have seen seriously catastrophic accidents, where over 100 people have gotten seriously injured because of it. It's just not going to happen.

Matthew 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. 11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. 15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
Great passage.
The thing is--- you're the one who is walking in here and telling me I have a problem because I attend a calvary chapel. Then you start dropping a bunch of incoherent, disconnected thoughts, which are like poorly aimed darts, hitting everything except the dartboard.
I'm not having a problem with the fact that you want to help. I'm having a problem with the fact that your help is not helping.

In fact, let's do it this way.....

A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold In settings of silver.

Your words are not fitly spoken. I wish they were, but they're not. At all.



So applying His words to mean the opposite of what you are saying is not righty dividing the word of truth.
A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold
In settings of silver.

You're not rightly dividing the word of truth. It'd be nice if you were, but you're butchering the word's beauty.

Then reconsider your words for how you are replying to me. What are you doing posting like this? Is this your attempt to correct me in His love? How is that not applying that message in ignoring me and just follow Jesus in what you are trying to post to me to do? It is hypocrisy
I have repeatedly reconsidered what you're saying, and you're not speaking in a clear and coherent manner.

As Paul said to the Corinthians regarding speaking in tongues.

6 But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you unless I speak to you either by revelation, by knowledge, by prophesying, or by teaching? 7 Even things without life, whether flute or harp, when they make a sound, unless they make a distinction in the sounds, how will it be known what is piped or played? 8 For if the trumpet makes an uncertain sound, who will prepare for battle? 9 So likewise you, unless you utter by the tongue words easy to understand, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air. 10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of languages in the world, and none of them is without significance. 11 Therefore, if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to him who speaks, and he who speaks will be a foreigner to me. 12 Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel.​

So, please.... speak coherently. Make it clear so we can understand you.

Galatians 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
Nope. It's not that you speak truth that I have a problem here. It's that your speaking of the truth is as Paul says in 1 Cor. 14..... You're not speaking in a manner which presents the truth you seek to speak clearly. Reading your material I have to read it several times, and each time it makes less and less sense.


Look, brother. I understand getting caught flat footed on an iniquity can be unsettling. It doesn't mean the Lord is not with you. As it was for me, so it is for you; you still trust your church leaders and your favorites in Christian leadership to not have led you astray. You do not want to be in the wrong. You need to lean on Him for help to apply His words to see that they did, and you need His help to forgive them too.
oh goody....
Ok. What flat-footed iniquity have I committed?


Just as we need His forgiveness for leading others astray by leading any to make a commitment to Christ rather than teaching others in looking to Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd to help us to follow Him. We are to correct others or else where is the love of Christ in our hearts?
Yeah, I seek his forgiveness daily. As John said, more importantly I seek his cleansing, so I can be free from a corrupted conscience. I really like having a clean conscience. It's a nice sense to be whole, and right with God.

So there will be a time to apply what you are saying and that is when He comes as the Bridegroom when He shall help us leave all our cares and loved ones behind for the Marriage Supper above as that is what is meant to follow Him if He so chooses to leave them behind.
Well, as you've provided nothing to support that you know what you're talking about, or why my attending Calvary Chapel is a sin, please work this out, so I can see a coherent, and clear set of ideas, supported with biblical passages.

19 Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not despise prophecies. 21 Test all things; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.
 
Hello Steve B and Hark, I think you both bring good content to the conversation so in fairness to Steve I'll also rep his comments as well. Seeing that today I find myself to be outside of American fundamentalism, I have issues with the mysticism among other things. Here's a read I'd recommend and yes I'm biased and it's by a Lutheran addressing the universal church at large. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/13772008-broken
Hi Nic.
So, when you say-- "outside of American fundamentalism"-- what do you mean?

When you say--- mysticism-- what do you mean?

Please define these terms so we can have a coherent and clear conversation. And if there are terms I'm using which are not clear to you, please let me know those too.
 
Calvary Chapel pastors are easier to nail down. The rank file believe lots of different things although the goal, at least in part, would be to embrace the views of the now departed Chuck Smith founder, under the slogan of like-minded believers.
Which leads to the question of what they mean by like minded believers. More on that next.
As far as your question goes. Calvary Chapel has a low view of theology in preferring to de-emphasize it all for the simple sake of abiding in him. All you need is Jesus is a common theme. In my opinion, that is somewhat debatable. You hear all we need is Jesus, then we hear you need to be abiding according to scripture. That last yoke is law and bondage.
It depends on how they seek to follow Him. Is it by doing the best they can, then it is law and bondage. Is it by looking to Jesus to help them to follow Him , then that is resting in Him at liberty.
There is also the need to get along but not officially among themselves, but that isn't ubiquitous. Cliques are common but not just there. There tends to be smugness with some or more pastors I've known and then among some or more that would emulate them.
I usually see the example Paul and others set as how they follow Christ in not looking to themselves to do it when all their hopes for following Him is on Him. Philippians 3rd chapter is an example of the difference Paul lived religiously to the law in following God and how he considers it dung now so as to know Him & the power of His resurrection when Paul relies on Jesus all the time for following Him.
Although in fairness, I've met and visited with some pastors of Calvary Chapel who weren't of that ilk and fortunately most of the rank and file weren't as a rule. I think in part pastors are expected to be a bit smug as if they have the inside track on relationship with God and to some degree are showman towards their hearers. Its expected of the pastors so they in a sense play the role (perform) and its cyclical feeding off each other. I've seen this worse in other groups (non-Calvary Chapel persons). Wow. Did I digress! BTW, Calvary Chapel doesn't own an exclusiveness on smugness. Sadly that's somewhat if not universal and some are worse than others.
I sometimes wonder if smugness is like seeing themselves as righteous and expecting others to follow them without question, thus secretly despising others no matter where they are in their walk with the Lord.

I sometimes wonder if I come across too strong in trying to prove all things that He has proven to me and yet I know He reminds me to point to Him to prove it to them. So I am grateful to the Lord in being my Good Shepherd & Friend to help me be that friend to those asleep or astray.
Getting back to your question, I think it comes down to the individual and the sincerity and kindness they choose to walk in and of course what they personally emphasize.
I believe the question of choice is not ours to make but recognize His choice for us that we are able to follow Him by our bearing fruit as His disciple.

John 15:.2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.....14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. 15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. 16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. 17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.

We never stop growing in the Lord as He prunes us to bear more fruits. Seeing His work in my life is how I know He has chosen me in helping me to abide in His words to bear fruit in the knowledge of Him that my love abounds more and more.

I will say this, Calvary Chapel tends to be a good works conscience group of believers and I mean that as a high compliment.
It is true that God can commend a church for good works and yet still have something against them that they can wind up being left behind which I believe is referring to that mysticism ( spiritual fornication ) whereby they seek another spirit for how they get that tongue for private use, uttering the depths of Satan for which they speak. that you are aware and staying away from that is in the church..

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

That is God acknowledging their good works, but...

20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

To your point, I too agree the body of Christ should be treated as the body of Christ even under different umbrellas. Sometimes those differences don't allow for conversations to go too far forward, other times you're blessed, but the word of God will silence the mouths (Rom 3:19), so seeds if nothing else are sown or watered. I tend to agree with you.
Seeing how God warned the 5 churches in Revelation and exhorted the 2 good churches to hold fast, I would say as the Lord leads and provide opportunities, He would have us share the water for any one that may hear by His grace & by His help to in order tp lean on Him to repent.
Rom 3:19, ESV
Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.
Contrary perhaps to the fundamentalist, I believe the law and the gospel go well beyond just getting people saved.

Nic
Especially if they sought justification by the deeds of the law then by the law is the knowledge of sin for why their mouths would be stopped.

Discipleship or running that race is not for obtaining salvation, but to be ready by looking to Jesus Christ daily to help us lay aside every weight & sin for the high prize of our calling to be received by the Bridegroom as a vessel unto honor in His House which is the eternal glory that comes with our salvation. We run that race as saved believers by the grace of God as we rely on Him all the time for helping us to follow Him. Amen.
 
Hi Nic.
So, when you say-- "outside of American fundamentalism"-- what do you mean?

When you say--- mysticism-- what do you mean?

Please define these terms so we can have a coherent and clear conversation. And if there are terms I'm using which are not clear to you, please let me know those too.
Hello Steve, when I use the term American fundamentalism I'm primarily referring to Christian groups that were unheard of before the novel expression of what today perhaps falls under contemporary or American Christianity. So pretty much anything outside the pale of more traditional expressions although today many of these have been caught up in the same prevailing winds of modern Christianity. I do recognize within the many and often peculiar expressing forms of American Christianity that there exists a wide range of attitudes and views, some better than others. As for my take with Calvary Chapel, it exists primarily within the subset of what I would call Baptist for all practical purposes and yes I'm familiar with their unique after glow meetings.
Mysticism refers to subjectivism and emotionalism.

Nic
 
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Hello Steve, when I use the term American fundamentalism I'm primarily referring to Christian groups that were unheard of before the novel expression of what today perhaps falls under contemporary or American Christianity. So pretty much anything outside the pale of more traditional expressions although today many of these have been caught up in the same prevailing winds of modern Christianity. I do recognize within the many and often peculiar expressing forms of American Christianity that there exists a wide range of attitudes and views, some better than others.
Sounds like a broad spectrum.
I grew up Methodist. My paternal grandparents were Methodist. Ironically, my paternal grandfather grew up an Irish catholic and abandoned his beliefs when he met my grandmother.
I didn't learn until I was 25 that my paternal grandfather's family members and ancestors were all catholic. It surprised me more than I can describe.

My mother was raised a Presbyterian, but went to a parochial school growing up.

I left the Methodist church when I was 11-12. I had no interest whatsoever in it once my family disintegrated.


As for my take with Calvary Chapel, it exists primarily within the subset of what I would call Baptist for all practical purposes and yes I'm familiar with their unique after glow meetings.
What would you say if I told you that Chuck Smith was a Four Square prior to starting CC?

I became a believer in Jesus at Calvary chapel Costa Mesa. The change took place immediately, but the application took longer.

Mysticism refers to subjectivism and emotionalism.

Nic
Ah. Ok.

I view mystical experiences in Christ as something else. And it's probably not even the right word to use.
 
Sounds like a broad spectrum.
I grew up Methodist. My paternal grandparents were Methodist. Ironically, my paternal grandfather grew up an Irish catholic and abandoned his beliefs when he met my grandmother.
I didn't learn until I was 25 that my paternal grandfather's family members and ancestors were all catholic. It surprised me more than I can describe.

My mother was raised a Presbyterian, but went to a parochial school growing up.

I left the Methodist church when I was 11-12. I had no interest whatsoever in it once my family disintegrated.



What would you say if I told you that Chuck Smith was a Four Square prior to starting CC?

I became a believer in Jesus at Calvary chapel Costa Mesa. The change took place immediately, but the application took longer.


Ah. Ok.

I view mystical experiences in Christ as something else. And it's probably not even the right word to use.
Hi Steve, thanks for your reply. It is a broad spectrum think pentecostal to Baptist and everything in between and to the periphery that would still be viewed as Christianity aside from bizarre quirks among different groups.
I'm familiar with Calvary Chapel beginnings, I was associating with them for probably 20 yrs give or take. I went to The Jesus Style retreat many years ago and I mentioned to Gayle Erwin that he reminded me of three comedians. He acknowledge he patterned his presentations after two of those men one being Red Skelton. The third one was lost on him, but I also said I can see a bit of Bobcat Goldthwait in his routine as well for lack of a more apt description. Which brings up a criticism that is sometimes heralded at Calvary Chapel (among many) for being entertaining almost without respect to setting.
Thanks for your reply.
p.s.
Contemplative or centering prayer is one logical progression of the mysticism I referenced above.

Nic
 
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Sounds like a broad spectrum.
I grew up Methodist. My paternal grandparents were Methodist. Ironically, my paternal grandfather grew up an Irish catholic and abandoned his beliefs when he met my grandmother.
I didn't learn until I was 25 that my paternal grandfather's family members and ancestors were all catholic. It surprised me more than I can describe.

My mother was raised a Presbyterian, but went to a parochial school growing up.

I left the Methodist church when I was 11-12. I had no interest whatsoever in it once my family disintegrated.



What would you say if I told you that Chuck Smith was a Four Square prior to starting CC?

I became a believer in Jesus at Calvary chapel Costa Mesa. The change took place immediately, but the application took longer.


Ah. Ok.

I view mystical experiences in Christ as something else. And it's probably not even the right word to use.
IMO, Just because a person discovers a new or renewed zeal for Christ later in life, doesn't necessitate the person wasn't a Christian prior to these latter found experiences. One could say emotional experiences, a.k.a. mysticism.
 
Which leads to the question of what they mean by like minded believers. More on that next.

It depends on how they seek to follow Him. Is it by doing the best they can, then it is law and bondage. Is it by looking to Jesus to help them to follow Him , then that is resting in Him at liberty.

I usually see the example Paul and others set as how they follow Christ in not looking to themselves to do it when all their hopes for following Him is on Him. Philippians 3rd chapter is an example of the difference Paul lived religiously to the law in following God and how he considers it dung now so as to know Him & the power of His resurrection when Paul relies on Jesus all the time for following Him.

I sometimes wonder if smugness is like seeing themselves as righteous and expecting others to follow them without question, thus secretly despising others no matter where they are in their walk with the Lord.

I sometimes wonder if I come across too strong in trying to prove all things that He has proven to me and yet I know He reminds me to point to Him to prove it to them. So I am grateful to the Lord in being my Good Shepherd & Friend to help me be that friend to those asleep or astray.

I believe the question of choice is not ours to make but recognize His choice for us that we are able to follow Him by our bearing fruit as His disciple.

John 15:.2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.....14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. 15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. 16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. 17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.

We never stop growing in the Lord as He prunes us to bear more fruits. Seeing His work in my life is how I know He has chosen me in helping me to abide in His words to bear fruit in the knowledge of Him that my love abounds more and more.


It is true that God can commend a church for good works and yet still have something against them that they can wind up being left behind which I believe is referring to that mysticism ( spiritual fornication ) whereby they seek another spirit for how they get that tongue for private use, uttering the depths of Satan for which they speak. that you are aware and staying away from that is in the church..

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

That is God acknowledging their good works, but...

20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.


Seeing how God warned the 5 churches in Revelation and exhorted the 2 good churches to hold fast, I would say as the Lord leads and provide opportunities, He would have us share the water for any one that may hear by His grace & by His help to in order tp lean on Him to repent.

Especially if they sought justification by the deeds of the law then by the law is the knowledge of sin for why their mouths would be stopped.

Discipleship or running that race is not for obtaining salvation, but to be ready by looking to Jesus Christ daily to help us lay aside every weight & sin for the high prize of our calling to be received by the Bridegroom as a vessel unto honor in His House which is the eternal glory that comes with our salvation. We run that race as saved believers by the grace of God as we rely on Him all the time for helping us to follow Him. Amen.
Hi Hark
There isn't anything cryptic about being like minded. Many of Chuck's books were used not dissimilar to that of catechisms in other traditions of Christianity.
Following Jesus-
Faith or trusting confidence is a gift. The Christian life is walked daily; repentance and faith go hand in hand. What you're advocating as Christian liberty becomes law as soon as you demand it of others.

Smugness is always sinful pride. I won't second guess motives or anothers thoughts beyond what can be viewed in plain sight on the surface. God himself and his law serves as the thought police.

Yes Christ first loved us! He has chosen us. But that doesn't mean determinism is the norm for Christian living which is synonymous with the law. As it is often touted we are not robots, but yes monergism echoes salvation belongs to the Lord and is of the Lord alone. The One who made the promise fulfills the promise and that's very good news for us. For while we were yet sinners Christ FOR US! The emphasis is on the *for us*. If we were without sin then are freedom to live Christian lives in the way we see fit wouldn't obscure Christ.
Running the race-
And when we fail to run the race, we sin.
The only sin that condemns is unbelief. It could be said that all sin is rooted in unbelief. Faith in Christ, his freely given gift alone saves.
My auto-correct is trying my patience substituting entire words and sometimes phrases that I revise often more than once to eliminate the error.
I really don't have the luxury of time to post these days. My previous off the cuff comments were met as such to give the reader an overview of what I've seen at Calvary Chapel and it wasn't intended to be more than that.
Thank for your reply


Nic
 
What are you talking about when you use the term- commitment?
You use these terms, but never provide definitions of what you mean.
As a man made yoke of bondage equal to vows & promises? That has been shared if you had read entirely rather than glancing down the post.
Sharing what you think you know, but are not able, or willing to clarify, so we can benefit from your wisdom does us no good. It's like a man who speaks in a foreign tongue to a group of non-native speakers. It's like babbling.

Your job was never to convince me. It's to providfe a coherent, and clearly stated message from which I'm able to make a clear choice.
You haven't even done that.

Yeah. I did that. He says I can ignore you because you're talking in babblings.

And yet, you have no idea what you're saying, because you don't provide clarity of thought and coherence.
You do know because you referred to speaking against man made vows but saw nothing wrong with added vows to marriage to wit, I say do apply the same reasonings against promises and vows to your added vows to marriage & a believer's commitment.
My commitment to God is based entirely on his commitment to me, as evidenced by what he did in providing his Son to die for me.
Death is pretty much the ultimate commitment. It doesn't get any more committed than that.
On the contrary, your commitment speaks of you. It is to your glory if you keep it. His commitment speaks of Him and it is to His glory if & when you apply your faith in Him to keep it. You cannot do both. Either you did it or He did it, enabling you to follow Him by faith alone and not by the deeds of the law like keeping a commitment or a promise.
As far as his coherent commitment.... Peter tells us in his second letter.

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.​

We can read, and see that as we increase our knowledge, and experience of God, and Jesus, His Grace and His Peace is increased towards us, multiplicatively. We can experience this, because he has committed to us everything we need to live a life of godliness. How can we know this? Through our knowledge and experience of him in our lives.
And this is possible, because of his glory and virtue. His Glory and Virtue have provided us with many exceedingly great and precious promises, which make it possible for us to become partakers of His Divine Nature. Further making it possible for us to escape the corruption that is in this world because of evil desires. Thus, it's God's commitment to us, which makes our becoming followers of Jesus possible, as well as his commitment to us, that make our escaping our sin possible.
That does not explain why you felt obligated to add your commitment to Him. If you believed in His commitment to you per the New Covenant and all He asks from you is to believe Him that He will finish His work in you, then look to Him in helping you to lay aside every weight & sin in following Him by faith.
5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.​

Then, in verses 5-8, we're engendered to "give all diligence" (our response to Him, for what he's committed to us), which itself is a commitment to Him, to add faith, virtue, knowledge, self-control, perseverance, godliness, brotherly kindness, and love. Pete further states that in giving all diligence to adding each of these to our lives, we can experience great success in our walk in Christ.
What I find curious is that he said the lack of these attributes in our lives means that we've lost sight of what God did on our behalf. I.e., that he previously cleansed us from our sin.
Add to your faith .... in Him.... as in what you look to Him to do in you in gaining or adding those things.. He will finish His work in you. Believe.
10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.​

Then here we note that if we give ourselves over to focusing on developing those attributes in our lives, we can have a guarantee from God that we'll never stumble.... And, to top it off--- that we'll receive an abundant entrance into the everlasting Kingdom of Jesus, our Lord and Savior.
When I consider this, I find myself being reminded of the massive parades that took place when the soldiers came home from World War II.
Not even in ministry will there be a parade for us in Heaven.

1 Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are your's; 22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your's; 23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

1 Corinthians 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
 
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12 For this reason I will not be negligent to remind you always of these things, though you know and are established in the present truth. 13 Yes, I think it is right, as long as I am in this tent, to stir you up by reminding you,

Seems like Pete's pretty committed to making sure we are reminded of these things, so we don't get stuck in the short-sightedness, and lose perspective of what God's Commitment is to us.
Hopefully by now Jesus is showing the short-sightedness you are having with His commitment to us when you speak of your commitment to Him. If you have faith in His commitment to us, then you should know there is no need for your commitment to Him when you are applying your faith in Him in His commitment to us as our Good Shepherd in helping us follow Him. Otherwise reread post #39 with His help.
Paul further identifies numerous points where God's Commitment was complete and total to us, so we can commit ourselves to him, knowing that God is able to hold in trust that which we commit to him, against the day of Jesus' return.

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

2 Timothy 1:12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.

Colossians 3: 1 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

So..... I have no idea what kind of a commitment you're talking about, but it's explicitly because of God's commitment to us that we can commit to him our lives.

David says as much too.
Psalm 37
4 Delight yourself also in the LORD, And He shall give you the desires of your heart.
5 Commit your way to the LORD, Trust also in Him, And He shall bring it to pass.
6 He shall bring forth your righteousness as the light, And your justice as the noonday.


Psa 31:5 NKJV - Into Your hand I commit my spirit; You have redeemed me, O LORD God of truth.

As does Solomon

Pro 16:3 NKJV - Commit your works to the LORD, And your thoughts will be established.

Seems to me that commitment is a good thing. Iy YHVH can commit himself to us, by giving us his son to die for us, we should be able to commit ourselves to him, and rest in his commitment to us. As you noted in Philippians 1:6

being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;
Right; now see how applying faith in Him to finish requires no looking to yourself to help Him do it as if He cannot finish His work on His own. We are to trust Him to do His work and even finish it, for why we are to rest in Him to help us to follow Him without any man made bondage of the law like making and thus keeping religiously a commitment to Christ where men can boast in and they do in the religious world, even in Alcoholic Anonymous & Narcotics Anonymous.

For other believers and even sinners to see your hope in Christ to destroy the works of the devil in their lives to be set free and be able to follow Him, they need to see your faith in Him; not your commitment to Him because they cannot see it in themselves to keep a man made bondage when sin has dominion over their lives.

A woman had walked away from an altar call because she was led to believe she had to clean up her life first before coming to Jesus to believe in Him. She never said it was make a commitment to Christ that turned her away but given the altar calls in the valley where I lived in, I would not be surprised. Sinners cannot see it in themselves to make such a commitment when sin has been ruling over their lives in disappointing them. Fortunately, a while later, she believed me and had announced that she came to and believed in the Lord Jesus Christ & I saw joy of her salvation on her face. Whoever the Lord sent to confirm what I had shared, God caused the increase as that person & I are nothing. He gets the glory in Heaven and should get the glory on earth, but believers seem to give credit to whomever gives that altar call to make a commitment to Christ..

I admit that I had that thought of "accomplishment" when the Lord rebuked me for thinking that way when I led some other woman before that time, in making a commitment to Christ. He was trying to tell me something else but I was unable to receive it because I could not fathom that the church taught me wrong in serving Him on the evangelism team that He never had asked for a commitment nor a promise from His disciples to follow Him. He said to deny yourself as able to follow after Him, pick up the cross daily; as in it is not we who live but Christ in us lives, and to follow "me" is to trust Him as our Good Shepherd to help us to follow Him by faith alone.

Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

No commitment. Just believe Him. You will see yourself following Him by faith of what you could not do by doing the best you can in keeping that commitment.
 
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