My two week binge on Calvary Chapel

[Nic]

Calvary Chapel, Chuck Smith, and George Bryson.

Years ago, I recall AOMIN's Jas R White saying something about Calvary Chapel producing Reformed Christians. If I have this right, his point was people can only endure so much of de-emphasized theology. I believe he pointed to an example or two as well.
But that's been many years ago. A cursory search reveals a would be link from 2010.
Calvary Chapel Bibliography Produces Another Believing Calvinist

 

[Christian]

I had just gotten out of the hospital, and was feeling like they should have sent me to the morgue instead. it was the middle of August with 100% humidity and no air conditioning. The barge I had been living on for the past five years was tied to some trees on a busted levy on the Sacramento delta. I would occasionally jump into the slough to cool off during the night only to gain a few winks of twilight sleep before resuming my tossing and turning.

Suddenly there was a thud in the pit of my chest like the fattest open string on a bass guitar. The pitch black darkness didn't help matters, and I lay there frozen for what seemed like an eternity. I didn't know if the grim reaper was hovering over me waiting for some signs of life to make sure he had the right address or perhaps there was some heroin addict looking to slit my throat before rummaging through my things for a few bucks to contribute to his next fix.

A light began to shine in the distance. As it increased in brightness and intensity, I could see that there was no one in the room. The light then made its way down the hallway, and I along with it to see if the bathroom, the other bedroom and the main salon were also empty of any intruders. I checked the door. It was latched, but not locked so that left only the possibility of the grim reaper or some other demonic entity tormenting my troubled soul.

I later learned that someone had been on the run from the law, and a sheriff's boat had been out with four HUGE stadium type flood lights searching the waterfront for him. As I stood in the darkness again. I fumbled around for something to light the room, and found an old black and white 12 volt tv I had stashed in the closet of the second bedroom. I had a few batteries keeping another boat afloat, but I had one available to power up this tv. It was around midnight and the only channel that had a signal was now announcing "The Shepherd's Chapel with your host, Pastor Arnold Murray". He welcomed his viewing audience and began reading from the bible.

An hour later the show was over, but then, lo and behold, it was yet another episode, and then another and another. Six full hours of the Shepherd's Chapel. After the last episode had aired, I went back to sleep for a few hours before going for a walk. I began to frequent church services, and bible study groups, while watching The Shepherd's Chapel every night for the next two weeks.

I got so hooked on Pastor Arnold Murray's glowing recommendations for The Companion Bible that I bought a copy for myself along with a Strong's Concordance. I still have that tattered bible along with an new large print edition which in an attempt to preserve, I try not to move from my desk.

Contrary to popular opinion, a tattered bible is not a sign of piety.

It is the tell-tale sign of a tormented mind.

I'm just south of you in the Modesto area and my brother lives on a houseboat in Stockton at Tower Park Marina. We will be playing golf today at Spanos in Stockton after this mornings church service. I fish up your way allot for sturgeon, stripers, salmon, steelhead and the shad runs in the spring.

 

[shnarkle]

I'm just south of you in the Modesto area and my brother lives on a houseboat in Stockton at Tower Park Marina. We will be playing golf today at Spanos in Stockton after this mornings church service. I fish up your way allot for sturgeon, stripers, salmon, steelhead and the shad runs in the spring.

I know the area well, and also spent years fishing for striper, steelhead, but mostly catfish. I spent quite a bit of time over at Lost Isle as well, but most of my time was spent on or around Bethel Island which anyone you ask will tell you is the worst place on the entire delta. Most of the time I was anchored across from the Delta Resort which anyone on Bethel Island will tell you is the worst place on the entire island. I now live in Florida and will never set foot back in the entire state of California ever again.

One evening my motorcycle broke down right in front of the bar. It sat there for the next two years. No one ever touched it. The shack just to the west was a meth lab. One morning around 6 am. local and federal law enforcement arrived in front of the bar at the Delta Resort and entered to get themselves some coffee and take a smoke break. About ten minutes later, a few officers looked at their watches and gave the signal to storm the shack next door. A few minutes later there was an officer taking video footage of a few of the occupants of the shack mixing some chemicals together to make meth right out on the levy.

A houseboat just down at the next resort literally exploded and burned for the next ten hours. Much of that time was spent listening to rounds going off and hoping none of them were aimed my way. Another subsequent explosion almost completely destroyed a sheriff's officer's boat. The whole front end was a mass of warped black melted fiberglass.

The resort consisted of a few rows of RV's and travel trailers with a couple mobile homes. Most tenants drank in the bar until they died, although one of the tenants in a small 24' trailer blew his brains out.

Hypodermic needles and spent bullet casings were a common sight littered around the park. I once saw an infant crawling around in his diapers pick up a bullet casing and stick it into his mouth. The metal is more flavorful than the plastic syringes and not as sharp either.

 

[Josheb]

Years ago, I recall AOMIN's Jas R White saying something about Calvary Chapel producing Reformed Christians. If I have this right, his point was people can only endure so much of de-emphasized theology. I believe he pointed to an example or two as well.
But that's been many years ago. A cursory search reveals a would be link from 2010.
Calvary Chapel Bibliography Produces Another Believing Calvinist

I think I missed it; is there a point of inquiry or comment intended for discussion in this thread?

I met Chuck Smith in the mid-80s when I was out in CA evangelizing for the '84 Olympics. Studied at Costa Mesa, the Vineyard, and Church on the Way. Thought that was the neatest thing. I became suspicious when such an emphasis was placed on end times and Zionism, and then became disappointed to learn Smith and several others' (Walvoord, Lindsay, etc.) end-times predictions all failed. The suspicion and disappointment increased as I learned more about the departure these guys took ecclesiologically (not to be confused with ecclesiastically) and Christology, teaching the Church is corrupt and Jesus is not currently reigning as king. These things don't reconcile well with whole scripture. My investigation eventually led me to understand they were teaching Dispensational Premillennialism (DP) and practicing the Dispensational hermeneutic invented by John Darby in the mid-1800s. Learning that, in turn led me to investigate alternatives where I learned,

• Historically speaking DPism is a relatively new theology,
• In terms of orthodoxy, DPism is a radical departure from core Christian doctrine,
• Hermeneutically, DPists don't practice their own hermeneutic with much consistency.

When Chuck Smith was teaching on many things, he was often well within the pale of historical and orthodox Christian thought and doctrine but the propensity to inject problems in the Church and end times into everything wasn't just unnecessary, it was often misguided. I find the same is true today, as well. Just last night I heard David Jeremiah and Gary Hamrick do the same. Chuck Smith is a pivotal influence. I also find there's a certain paradox and irony to Smith because he was trying to get away from sectarianism, yet there are now scores, if not hundreds, of Calvary Chapels worldwide, all with their roots in his congregation.

How many like-affiliated congregations does it take to form a denomination? I wonder if Luther, Knox, Wesley, Smith, and the others every considered that a problem.

 

[BJ Bear]

I think I missed it; is there a point of inquiry or comment intended for discussion in this thread?

I met Chuck Smith in the mid-80s when I was out in CA evangelizing for the '84 Olympics. Studied at Costa Mesa, the Vineyard, and Church on the Way. Thought that was the neatest thing. I became suspicious when such an emphasis was placed on end times and Zionism, and then became disappointed to learn Smith and several others' (Walvoord, Lindsay, etc.) end-times predictions all failed. The suspicion and disappointment increased as I learned more about the departure these guys took ecclesiologically (not to be confused with ecclesiastically) and Christology, teaching the Church is corrupt and Jesus is not currently reigning as king. These things don't reconcile well with whole scripture. My investigation eventually led me to understand they were teaching Dispensational Premillennialism (DP) and practicing the Dispensational hermeneutic invented by John Darby in the mid-1800s. Learning that, in turn led me to investigate alternatives where I learned,

• Historically speaking DPism is a relatively new theology,
• In terms of orthodoxy, DPism is a radical departure from core Christian doctrine,
• Hermeneutically, DPists don't practice their own hermeneutic with much consistency.

When Chuck Smith was teaching on many things, he was often well within the pale of historical and orthodox Christian thought and doctrine but the propensity to inject problems in the Church and end times into everything wasn't just unnecessary, it was often misguided. I find the same is true today, as well. Just last night I heard David Jeremiah and Gary Hamrick do the same. Chuck Smith is a pivotal influence. I also find there's a certain paradox and irony to Smith because he was trying to get away from sectarianism, yet there are now scores, if not hundreds, of Calvary Chapels worldwide, all with their roots in his congregation.

How many like-affiliated congregations does it take to form a denomination? I wonder if Luther, Knox, Wesley, Smith, and the others every considered that a problem.

I was in that area around the same time. What I would add is that some local cc'ers told me that Smith worked on the Moses principle, basically give the pitch and see who follows.

If their characterization was accurate then that would account for the similar spinoff congregations because if the formula worked in Costa Mesa then it would probably work elsewhere.

The other thing that I would add is that around that general time Chuck Missler was focused on teaching about the pyramids in some Christian sense. His out was that he never claimed to be a teacher in the church.

 

[Josheb]

I was in that area around the same time. What I would add is that some local cc'ers told me that Smith worked on the Moses principle, basically give the pitch and see who follows.

If their characterization was accurate then that would account for the similar spinoff congregations because if the formula worked in Costa Mesa then it would probably work elsewhere.

The other thing that I would add is that around that general time Chuck Missler was focused on teaching about the pyramids in some Christian sense. His out was that he never claimed to be a teacher in the church.

I have no reason to doubt Smith's membership among the elect. he was a charismatic and persuasive teacher, and I don't generally find fault in teachings (back then or hearing old sermons now) except for his eschatology. For the most part, his Christology and soteriology was sound, and most of his ecclesiology was sound. I say "for the most part" because he was susceptible to the same problems inherent in Dispensationalism: Jeus is King and Lord of all, but he's not yet King here on earth ?, anyone can be saved simply by believing in Jesus but Israel is first going to have to build a temple, reconstitute the Levitical priesthood, and reinstitute animal sacrifices (works) before they can and will be saved (so for Israel it is salvation by works+grace), and other problems that compromise core, orthodox, historical Christian thought, doctrine, and practice.

But maybe that plays to your point: make the pitch and see who follows.

 

[SteveB]

I have no reason to doubt Smith's membership among the elect. he was a charismatic and persuasive teacher, and I don't generally find fault in teachings (back then or hearing old sermons now) except for his eschatology. For the most part, his Christology and soteriology was sound, and most of his ecclesiology was sound. I say "for the most part" because he was susceptible to the same problems inherent in Dispensationalism:

Jesus is King and Lord of all, but he's not yet King here on earth ?,

Ok.
Why is Jesus already King on earth?

anyone can be saved simply by believing in Jesus

Yep. John 3:16-18, Romans 10:9-13, 1 John 5:10-13

but Israel is first going to have to build a temple, reconstitute the Levitical priesthood,

Ezekiel 40-47

and reinstitute animal sacrifices (works) before they can and will be saved (so for Israel it is salvation by works+grace),

Zechariah 13:6-9, Daniel 9:24-27, 12:10-12, and countless others.
We were never taught that Israel has to do works to be saved.
We were taught that they wouldn't believe that Jesus is their Messiah until the Abomination of Desolation takes place. After which they will realize how wrong they were. They'd then turn to YHVH, and place their trust in Jesus. At which point they'd turn in full measure, and fulfill their covenant with YHVH.
Not grace AND. Simply Grace, through Faith!

and other problems that compromise core, orthodox, historical Christian thought, doctrine, and practice.

Why does Israel have to abandon the covenant made with them?
this just raises a whole collection of questions. Talking about cracking open a whole pallet of cans of worms!

what core?
what orthodox?
what historical Christian thought?
what doctrine?
what practice?

Are you aware that we Gentiles are the wild olive branches engrafted onto the natural olive branch- Romans 11, and brought near, and welcomed into the household, and made citizens.... Ephesians 2:12-22-- ?

Seems like you're looking at this completely backwards.

 

[American Gothic]

Smith was mistaken on the meaning of "generation"
I think it actually has multiple meanings
a very simple one being when first son is born (ie. the times of so and so, then the times of so and so, etc.)
it can also be all the people of Israel alive at a certain time (ie. the curse Jesus put on that existing generation of Israel)

Smith thought it was 40 years or whatever when he wrote a book
he was wrong, and I'd bet admitted so
we are not to set dates like that on the Rapture, as it is eminent
that doesn't mean it has to happen today, tomorrow, or in the next 40 years

Satan is currently acting king of this world and god of this Age
can only do what the Creator, Owner, Ruler, and Judge of all Creation allows

there are multiple covenants recorded in the Bible, not just an Old and then a New
the Mosaic covenant with that Law was conditional and for a time - was broken, and was replaced with a better covenant, again made with Israel
there is no covenant cut directly with The Church

my neighbor "believes in Jesus" but can't tell me the Gospel
(she is really a Gnostic/neo-pagan with her own gospel)

gentiles don't become Israel, they are brought near
the Olive Tree is the place of blessing - the owner of that is Israel, per the Abrahamic covenant
we are blessed being in Messiah and blessed thru Edenic/Abrahamic/and Messianic covenant promises

anyone in Messiah thru the true faith is a child of God
Israel and those of it still have a unique distinction among the nations
the Mosaic covenant Law was about covenant Fellowship in a specific national relationship with God - not Salvation
our efforts never contribute to that salvation - it is a work of God, making the impossible possible

in extrabiblical liturature, the Rapture is called the "Mercy"
Qumran/Essenes had a dispensational calendar of the Ages based on a certain number of Jubilees
the departure is also in 2 Thessalonians
there is no reason for The Church to be in the Tribulation - it deals with Israel and the Nations (we of The Church are a new creation)
certainly "Christendom" - most of which is false - will be judged there

 

[SteveB]

Smith was mistaken on the meaning of "generation"
I think it actually has multiple meanings
a very simple one being when first son is born (ie. the times of so and so, then the times of so and so, etc.)
it can also be all the people of Israel alive at a certain time (ie. the curse Jesus put on that existing generation of Israel)

A few years ago I heard a curious study about the Greek word- genea.

According to Strong's concordance, it has 4 meanings.

Mat 24:34 WEB Most certainly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things are accomplished.

Strong's Definition: From (a presumed derivative of) G1085; a generation ; by implication an age (the period or the persons): - age, generation, nation, time.

Total KJV Occurrences: 42

Thayer has

Thayer Definition:

fathered, birth, nativity
that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family
the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy
metaphorically a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character
especially in a bad sense, a perverse nation
the whole multitude of men living at the same time
an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years

The study said that it's more likely that it's the stock or lineage of a people.
I.e., the entire Jewish people.
The entire Italian people.
The entire Chinese people....

The Jewish people will not pass away until all these things are fulfilled.

I don't think that became the new accepted norm.
But I do agree that it should be considered.
The only thing that I find myself wondering with this is that it opens the timing of the fulfillment to any point in history.
Perhaps that's the point because we're always trying to pinpoint the occurrence of the second most important event in the history of the human race.

Smith thought it was 40 years or whatever when he wrote a book
he was wrong, and I'd bet admitted so
we are not to set dates like that on the Rapture, as it is eminent
that doesn't mean it has to happen today, tomorrow, or in the next 40 years

Yes, actually he did. He was constantly giving qualifying his ideas (at Bible study, Church services).
The books pigeonholed the idea, and locked it in.
Well, it's 38 years later.
We who follow Jesus are still following Jesus.

Personally, I'm grateful he waited.
My wife got saved, a year later. 1989.
I have plenty of brothers and sisters in Christ who are now following Jesus, who weren't back then.

Make no mistake, I'd absolutely love to be with Jesus right now.
1981 was purportedly the rapture. 1988, the end of the tribulation period.
1989 would have been the beginning of the millennium. We'd be 38 years into a 1000 years of paradise on earth.

Ironically, the technology described in Revelation didn't exist back then.

It just got started in the time since.

AI is almost brand new and too young to be what is described in Revelation.
It may not take long to grow up, but what Chuck and others were thinking at the time was awfully immature.

There's a much more advanced level of globalization on the rise.

There's a global consortium who has prepared a new idea referred to as "The Great Reset."

The World Economic Forum is behind it.

And this too may be too early a version.

A lot of us today are convinced that some catastrophic event will be required before the Reset can succeed.

We're presently thinking that it's the rapture that is the catalyst.

But...
There's so much we don't know.

And in all honesty... those of us who have been around for a long time and have lived through the past 40+ years.... We're OK with it.

Jesus will come when the Father says he'll come.

One thing is absolutely certain....

We're even more excited about his coming than we were 40+ years ago. Probably because we're older now, and would prefer the rapture to our bodies growing older and breaking down on us.

Brothers in Christ who were part of the original 1960's and early 70's Jesus movement are starting to get promoted to go be with Jesus.

But, the present joke we have is-

Rapture or rupture.


Back when, it was-

Here, there or in the air!

All that said... We're still saying


Maranatha Lord Jesus!