Mysterious Ruins

[En Hakkore]

If there was a global flood that covered the whole Earth, we should have a date, or at least a range of dates.

Agreed. Those who believe such an event took place would have to provide this date (date range) and some have, though for the reasons I outlined previously, deriving this from the biblical texts is methodologically problematic... to say nothing of the practical and geological obstacles in the way.

Kind regards,
Jonathan

 

[En Hakkore]

You appear to be writing about myth with regard to Noah & so on. Do you actually believe there was a huge flood of the entire ancient near east? Or have I completely misunderstood you?

There was flooding in the Ancient Near East, as in many other places throughout the world, but nothing so catastrophic that the area's entire civilization was wiped out save a handful of humans and animals... myths of floods as agents of divine judgment developed in the Ancient Near East (and elsewhere), from which the biblical version derived.

The strands have been woven together rather well but there are some clear differences between them.

Differences for sure... supplements to the core story draw on oral and/or written variations and do not necessarily agree with that which precedes. Organic growth around a core better explains the literary evidence. For example, in the deity's instructions to Noah in 7:1 the man is told to enter the ark. This is typically assigned to J, yet there has been no mention of an ark in so-called J material up to this point... the comment assumes the instructions assigned to P for the building of the ark in 6:14-16. Friedman's shifting translation of the clause between Who Wrote the Bible and The Bible With Sources Revealed is illuminating and reflects an attempt to evade the problem this poses to his thesis that J precedes P. In the earlier book he (correctly) articulates the noun (pg 55), but in the latter book he (incorrectly) renders the instruction to come "into an ark" (pg 43). It is a subtle but important difference whereby J can now be read as simply a terse account that the author(s) of P later expanded on... unfortunately it is a mistranslation of the underlying Hebrew text where the noun is articulated.

If you have not already done so I recommend Finkel's The Ark Before Noah.

I have not read it, thanks for the reference... I'll try to get hold of a copy at some point (not so easy anymore when my university lacks an e-version of a particular title).

Are you referring to the cuneiform text or the general myth?

The general myth.

Kind regards,
Jonathan

 

[En Hakkore]

A cubit was about 18 inches, and 15 cubits=~22.5 feet. https://www.britannica.com/science/cubit
If the bible describes an actual flood event then it could have occurred on the Tigris and/or Euphrates rivers.

OK, so let's start with Gen 7:18 where the ark is said to have floated on the face of the waters. According to 7:11 the flood began on the 17th day of the 2nd month and 150 days later on the 17th day of the 7th month (5 months of 30 days each) the ark came to rest on some mountains (8:3-4). Could you please tell me where, if the Tigris or Euphrates rivers flooded, the ark would be about 150 days later and where you think it grounded... thanks.

Kind regards,
Jonathan

 

[En Hakkore]

FAO En Hakkore I now remember you! [I cannot find an "embarrassed" emoticon]

It's always nice to be remembered!

Kind regards,
Jonathan

 

[J regia]

OK, so let's start with Gen 7:18 where the ark is said to have floated on the face of the waters. According to 7:11 the flood began on the 17th day of the 2nd month and 150 days later on the 17th day of the 7th month (5 months of 30 days each) the ark came to rest on some mountains (8:3-4). Could you please tell me where, if the Tigris or Euphrates rivers flooded, the ark would be about 150 days later and where you think it grounded... thanks.

Kind regards,
Jonathan

Dunno, but if the story actually happened, it wasn't Mt Ararat, or even Ararat. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ararat,_Victoria

 

[En Hakkore]

Dunno, but if the story actually happened, it wasn't Mt Ararat, or even Ararat.

I never said it was... I asked where you thought it was. I would highly recommend you come up with something better than "Dunno" if you expect your interpretation of the biblical text to be given serious consideration. I can appreciate your hesitation in answering either this or the other question about where the ark floated... it is driving at a serious problem in reconciling your local flood theory with the text, the geography of the area and how rivers and floods work. When you are ready to tackle it, I'll continue to engage the topic with you...

Kind regards,
Jonathan

 

[J regia]

I never said it was... I asked where you thought it was. I would highly recommend you come up with something better than "Dunno" if you expect your interpretation of the biblical text to be given serious consideration. I can appreciate your hesitation in answering either this or the other question about where the ark floated... it is driving at a serious problem in reconciling your local flood theory with the text, the geography of the area and how rivers and floods work. When you are ready to tackle it, I'll continue to engage the topic with you...

Kind regards,
Jonathan

If the story was factual then where do you think that Noah's boat floated, given that the KJV says the flood was only 15 cubits high?

 

[En Hakkore]

If the story was factual then where do you think that Noah's boat floated, given that the KJV says the flood was only 15 cubits high?

Continued evasion and circling back to previously-trodden ground noted...

Kind regards,
Jonathan

 

[J regia]

That's your issue not mine for your continued evasion and circling back to previously-trodden ground, but it doesn't change the fact that the KJV clearly says that the flood which drowned most of Noah's family was only 15 cubits high, which is why Noah's brothers (Jubal and Jabal) and their families weren't drowned (Gen 4:20-21).

You know it makes sense.

 

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

There was flooding in the Ancient Near East, as in many other places throughout the world, but nothing so catastrophic that the area's entire civilization was wiped out save a handful of humans and animals... myths of floods as agents of divine judgment developed in the Ancient Near East (and elsewhere), from which the biblical version derived.



Differences for sure... supplements to the core story draw on oral and/or written variations and do not necessarily agree with that which precedes. Organic growth around a core better explains the literary evidence. For example, in the deity's instructions to Noah in 7:1 the man is told to enter the ark. This is typically assigned to J, yet there has been no mention of an ark in so-called J material up to this point... the comment assumes the instructions assigned to P for the building of the ark in 6:14-16. Friedman's shifting translation of the clause between Who Wrote the Bible and The Bible With Sources Revealed is illuminating and reflects an attempt to evade the problem this poses to his thesis that J precedes P. In the earlier book he (correctly) articulates the noun (pg 55), but in the latter book he (incorrectly) renders the instruction to come "into an ark" (pg 43). It is a subtle but important difference whereby J can now be read as simply a terse account that the author(s) of P later expanded on... unfortunately it is a mistranslation of the underlying Hebrew text where the noun is articulated.



I have not read it, thanks for the reference... I'll try to get hold of a copy at some point (not so easy anymore when my university lacks an e-version of a particular title).



The general myth.

Kind regards,
Jonathan

If you have an hour or so to spare there is a very entertaining lecture Finkel gave at the Oriental Institute a few years ago that is available to watch online.

 

[En Hakkore]

If you have an hour or so to spare there is a very entertaining lecture Finkel gave at the Oriental Institute a few years ago that is available to watch online.

Thanks for the link... hopefully I can squeeze it in sometime this weekend.

Kind regards,
Jonathan

 

[J regia]

If you have an hour or so to spare there is a very entertaining lecture Finkel gave at the Oriental Institute a few years ago that is available to watch online.

Did the Hebrews write their version of the flood story after reading the Babylonian story while they were sitting down beside the rivers of Babylon?

march of Hebrew slaves video - Bing video

www.bing.com

 

[En Hakkore]

If you have an hour or so to spare there is a very entertaining lecture Finkel gave at the Oriental Institute a few years ago that is available to watch online.

Thanks again the video link. I managed to watch it this evening... Finkel is a very engaging speaker. I have an overwhelming urge to go out and build a coracle, but will need to make sure there are no goats nearby!

Kind regards,
Jonathan

 

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Thanks again the video link. I managed to watch it this evening... Finkel is a very engaging speaker. I have an overwhelming urge to go out and build a coracle, but will need to make sure there are no goats nearby!

Kind regards,
Jonathan

Good to hear you enjoyed it. You could always try a reduced scale model of the coracle to float in the bath!

From my reading of his work and whenever I have seen him on programmes - or as in that lecture - Dr Finkel strikes me as a most engaging individual and someone in whose company, and with a glass of something, I anticipate a very congenial evening could be spent.

 

[Authentic Nouveau]

Dude, where did you graduate?Lol

The verse says:

The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than fifteen cubits.

You said:

But either way, it still doesn't change the fact that the KJV clearly says that the flood depth was only 15 cubits ...

--

The measurement was about 23 feet above the mountain peak. To make it simple to you, you submerge yourself in a pool until your feet touch the floor. From your head to the water surface above you is 23 feet. Did you get this, Mr. retired plant physiologist and orchardist? Lol

Sorry, I have to leave this discussion with you as my stomach really hurts from laughing. Lol

The Devil has been supervising that trick for several years here. He can't learn.

The phrase

and all the high hills that were under the whole heaven were covered.

 

[Authentic Nouveau]

In other words you have no evidence to support your hypotheses that about 4000 years ago the ocean level was 15 cubits higher than Mt Everest and that sloths and kangaroos are native to the middle east.

Why don't you deliver evidence?

Reminder Darwin told you aussies were very little more intelligent than apes.

 

[J regia]

The Devil has been supervising that trick for several years here. He can't learn.

The phrase

That's your issue if you are unfamiliar with the English language, but it doesn't change the fact that the KJV clearly says that the flood height was only 15 cubits even if you believe that the Devil wrote it.

 

[Tiburon]

That's your issue if you are unfamiliar with the English language, but it doesn't change the fact that the KJV clearly says that the flood height was only 15 cubits even if you believe that the Devil wrote it.

And where was this height measured from? Sea level? The tops of the mountains? The original position of the ark?

 

[J regia]

And where was this height measured from? Sea level? The tops of the mountains? The original position of the ark?

Obviously it was measured from the normal river height before it flooded.

 

[Tiburon]

Obviously it was measured from the normal river height before it flooded.

Obviously? Why obviously? Is any mention made of the river?