NDEs and ADCs: Their Evidential Value for Christian Apologetics

Berserk

Member
Let me begin with this disclaimer: I am an evangelical Christian for whom Christ's atoning death and resurrection are the anchor of my faith. But at their best, the verifications inherent in ADCs (=After-Death Contacts) and NDEs (near-death experiences) seem more evidentially probative even than the evidence for Jesus' resurrection and, in my experience of evangelistic witnessing, are far more effective than any Bible-based apologetics. To demonstrate why I will share some of the most mind-blowing evidential NDEs and ADCs I have encountered, including some of the most convincing which have not been published.

But first, I will provide some biblical background for ADCs:
(1) Apart from Jesus' resurrection appearances, the most obvious NT example of an ADC is the return of Moses and Elijah to be present with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration (Mark 9:2-9 and parallels).

(2) "After His resurrection, they [deceased saints] came out of the tombs and came into the holy city and appeared to many (Matthew 27:53)."
Whether their bodies were actually resurrected or their spirits simply appeared to the living in Jerusalem, these paranormal appearances qualify as ADCs.

(3) Hebrews 12:1: "Since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight and the sin that clings so closely and run with perseverance the race that is set before us."
In part this image of "the cloud of witnesses" refers back to the list of OT saints discussed in chap. 11. But in Hebrews, the word "witnesses" (Greek: martyres) always refers to eyewitnesses and the witnesses in 12:1 do not precede the living spiritual athletes, but rather surround them. So "the cloud of witnesses" are alive and are currently monitoring the progress of the spiritual athletes competing in the arena below. Hebrews 12:1 is thus an important prooftext for the affirmation in the Apostles' Creed, "I believe in the communion of saints." We don't need to embrace the Catholic practice of praying to deceased saints to recognize this point.

(4) In the Catholic OT Judas Maccabaeus has a vision of 2 deceased saints, the high priest Onias III and the prophet Jeremiah, whose encouragement and prayer support spur them on to military victory in Israel's decisive battle with the Greeks (2 Maccabees 15:6-19). True, this book is absent from the Protestant canon. But this visionary appearance of Jeremiah inspires speculation that Jesus in fact represents Jeremiah's return from the grave (Matthew 16:14).

(5) NDEs are experienced as a form of OBE. Paul considers his visit to Paradise a possible OBE (2 Corinthians 12:1-5) and Ezekiel describes his visions like ADCs:
e. g.: "Then the Spirit lifted me up (Ezekiel 3:12)."

My next planned posts will document some of the most evidentially impressive ADCs and NDEs. Please share any ADCs or NDEs that you or your acquaintances have experienced and what you think of them.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Can we assume you'll be presenting an unbiased account by also considering the various non-supernatural accounts of what is happening in NDE cases?
 

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
...
(5) NDEs are experienced as a form of OBE. Paul considers his visit to Paradise a possible OBE (2 Corinthians 12:1-5) and Ezekiel describes his visions like ADCs:...
It was unlawful for Paul to speak of it; why do you presume to do so?

2Cor 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2Cor 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Cor 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; )
2Cor 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
 

Authentic Nouveau

Well-known member
It was unlawful for Paul to speak of it; why do you presume to do so?

2Cor 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2Cor 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Cor 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; )
2Cor 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
What were the "words"?

You botched the point you tried to make.
 

Berserk

Member
(1a) NDE researchers like Dr. Raymond Moody are now writing books about shared NDEs, which can be far more evidential than regular NDEs because the doctors, nurses, and family members witnessing the apparent deaths actually experience key elements of the NDEs, including the OBE and the Past Life Review. Watch this short interview with Dr. Moody for a summary of this type of afterlife evidence:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...5FEC&FORM=VIRE

Elsewhere Dr. Moody describes his own shared NDE at his mother's deathbed. The shared nature of these NDEs is somewhat reminiscent of Jesus' resurrection appearances.

(1b) For a gripping personal account of a shared NDE, watch Dr. Scott Taylor' testimony:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...E67B&FORM=VIRE

Such shared NDEs refute the desperate claim of skeptics that NDEs are delusions caused by oxygen deprivation of a dying brain.
 

5wize

Well-known member
(1a) NDE researchers like Dr. Raymond Moody are now writing books about shared NDEs, which can be far more evidential than regular NDEs because the doctors, nurses, and family members witnessing the apparent deaths actually experience key elements of the NDEs, including the OBE and the Past Life Review. Watch this short interview with Dr. Moody for a summary of this type of afterlife evidence:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...5FEC&FORM=VIRE

Elsewhere Dr. Moody describes his own shared NDE at his mother's deathbed. The shared nature of these NDEs is somewhat reminiscent of Jesus' resurrection appearances.

(1b) For a gripping personal account of a shared NDE, watch Dr. Scott Taylor' testimony:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...E67B&FORM=VIRE

Such shared NDEs refute the desperate claim of skeptics that NDEs are delusions caused by oxygen deprivation of a dying brain.
Religious fervor accounts for a lot of emotional experiences. None of them verify Christian dogma in particular. You only get as far as those having the moment of fervor believes in an already shared mental propensity. It only means they had an internal emotional mental state. Those happen to groups sharing like mind and purpose all the time.
 

Berserk

Member
5wise,

You confuse 'fervor" with evidence and ignore the fact that many of these participants in shared NDEs aren't religious at all! Your error results from a failure to actually watch the videos expressing the evidence. Atheists are so threatened by real evidence that they confine their investigation to the safe myopic confines of their own Ghetto and need to be teased out for even a modicum of honest and open inquiry. It is giggle-worthy that atheists are actually proud of their cowardly unwillingness to actually read through the evidence in my personal testimony--as if they would be doing my a favor by watching a testimony intended for Christians.
 

Whateverman

Well-known member
5wise,

You confuse 'fervor" with evidence and ignore the fact that many of these participants in shared NDEs aren't religious at all!
You still haven't shown how any of this is useful for Christian apologia.

ps. the rest of your reply to @5wize paints a very clear picture of where the closed-mindedness lies...
 

Furion

Active member
5wise,

You confuse 'fervor" with evidence and ignore the fact that many of these participants in shared NDEs aren't religious at all! Your error results from a failure to actually watch the videos expressing the evidence. Atheists are so threatened by real evidence that they confine their investigation to the safe myopic confines of their own Ghetto and need to be teased out for even a modicum of honest and open inquiry. It is giggle-worthy that atheists are actually proud of their cowardly unwillingness to actually read through the evidence in my personal testimony--as if they would be doing my a favor by watching a testimony intended for Christians.
FYI.

To these here, if they've not experienced it, it simply cannot be. They'll just start calling you closed minded, as if theirs is not shut like a steel trap.
 

5wize

Well-known member
5wise,

You confuse 'fervor" with evidence and ignore the fact that many of these participants in shared NDEs aren't religious at all! Your error results from a failure to actually watch the videos expressing the evidence. Atheists are so threatened by real evidence that they confine their investigation to the safe myopic confines of their own Ghetto and need to be teased out for even a modicum of honest and open inquiry. It is giggle-worthy that atheists are actually proud of their cowardly unwillingness to actually read through the evidence in my personal testimony--as if they would be doing my a favor by watching a testimony intended for Christians.
I watched both of them and noticed that only 1 participant of the experience was interviewed and admitted that their were no details but a "feeling - an emotional state" of how the deceased was cradled by his mother and how the lone interviewee was already a pre-disposed Christian like the aunt.

I also read your bio of confused mental states and your predisposition to pick out a few premonition hits from what was more than likely a life filled with paranoia predictions where I'm sure that 90+ of the mental spew didn't come to pass. Didn't report any of that did you?

So giggle away because it it so annoying how Pentecostals that babble to each other in closets think they know how the world works outside their enclave of nonsense - Harvard or not. So tell me now, did I listen to enough of it, and read enough of your bio to know that your dime-a-dozen self delusion is common in paranoid schizophrenics too?
 

Berserk

Member
I watched both of them and noticed that only 1 participant of the experience was interviewed and admitted that their were no details but a "feeling - an emotional state" of how the deceased was cradled by his mother and how the lone interviewee was already a pre-disposed Christian like the aunt.
You exhibit an appalling propensity to read self-serving details into what you see and read that are not there.
First, Scott Taylor is not a Christian, but rather a reincarnationist, despite his childhood Presbyterian roots.
Second, there is no evidence in the video that any family members present at the death vigil were Christians, not even the aunt who who was taken out of body.
Third, both Scott and the aunt had identical experiences, despite the fact that they were unaware of each other's paranormal participation.
I also read your bio of confused mental states and your predisposition to pick out a few premonition hits from what was more than likely a life filled with paranoia predictions where I'm sure that 90+ of the mental spew didn't come to pass. Didn't report any of that did you?
More mindlessly false assumptions to protect you from evidence you find threatening! In fact, ALL of premonitions have come true--and I have more premonitions to share. So keep checking that thread for new posts. Also, you predictably overlook the other paranormal corroborating details of 2 of these premonitions.

(2) Here is an even more evidential shared NDE drawn from the book, "Lighted Passage." This book was brought to the attention of an agnostic friend of mine by a colleague who worked with him at HUD and was a relative of the author, Dr. Howell Vincent. Dr. Vincent, a Presbyterian minister, wrote this book, about his daughter Rea and her death in a car accident on her honeymoon. His description of a shared ADC involving his late first wife Nellie and other family members is quoted from p. 25:

"On at least 2 occasions this radiant mother had come to Rea in visible tangible form and talked with her...I was privileged to be present at one of these heavenly visits by Mother Nellie. Together with Rea I talked with Nellie, fully recognizing her face and form and voice. I saw her place her hand on Rea's head in blessing, and I saw her give Rea a flower, a calendula, which we pressed and kept. At that time 3 other members of our family were present, including Rea's second mother, Agnes, and they all saw Nellie and talked with her, as Rea and I did. We were all wide awake and walked around the room with Nellie."

Note the artifact given by Nellie as a memento of this ADC, a type of verification that is provided by other NDEs and ADCs. From an evidential perspective this testimony rivals the Gospel resurrection stories and, for that very reason, lends them added credibility. Rev. Vincent's testimony certainly opened my agnostic top HUD executive friend's heart to the Gospel and the possibility that Jesus really did rise from the dead.
 

Berserk

Member
(3a) Leonard was a wealthy elderly businessman who was a beloved member of a church I pastored in western New York. On a few occasions I had dinner with him and his wife Helen. He was very anxious that I visit his brother, his wife, and his cousin when they had health issues. But one day it dawned on me that he seemed to have little or no grief about the premature deaths of his son Jeff, Jeff's wife Karen, and their 2 children in a small plane crash. One day Leonard asked me to visit him to discuss a possible visit to his dying cousin who lived across the road who had refused any visitation. Leonard wasn't home, but I found myself remarking to Helen at how easily Leonard seemed to adjust to the tragic deaths of his young son's family. Helen replied cryptically, "Oh, that's because Jeff visited him, but Leonard doesn't like to talk about that!"
Curious, I took the risk to make the same observation to Leonard the next time I saw him. His responded with the most dramatically supernatural encounter I've ever encountered. Leonard told me that after the funeral he was about to drive Jeff's pickup truck to town on an errand. As he approached the end of his driveway, he noticed a figure looming from the ditch by the highway. It was his late son Jeff! Jeff approached the pickup, saying, "Hi Dad, do you mind if I drive my pickup for old time's sake?" A stunned Leonard slid over and Jeff got in and drove his pickup north towards Rochester, NY on Rte. 37. Jeff assured his Dad that he and his family were together and OK and then revealed the details of his financial investments to help Leonard settle his estate. After driving a few miles, Jeff abruptly turned right on a less traveled highway and drove a couple of miles until they approached a thicket of woods. Jeff then solemnly remarked: "I'm sorry, Dad, but I'm not permitted to drive any further." Jeff then got out of the pickup, walked towards the woods, and dematerialized! A stunned Leonard then drove the pickup home. Leonard told me that Jeff's paranormal visit did little to ease his grief because he was in shock and the whole adventure seemed too surreal to be real. But everything changed the next morning. Leonard awakened with a heavy heart and went for a walk in the woods behind his house to ease his grief. He was soon overcome by a weeping spell and sat down on a log. Then he heard a branch crack and saw a young woman approaching. It was Jeff's late wife Karen! She chided him, "Dad, didn't we tell you that we are all together and OK? So what are you doing grieving like this? You get back in the house and comfort Mom (Helen)!" It was Karen's comforting visit that dispatched most of Leonard's grief. After sharing this amazing account, Leonard gazed at my incredulous expression with great concern and I felt ashamed because he hadn't wanted to share this experience and I had goaded him into sharing it. I apologized, adding that I was grateful that he shared his ADC and I just needed time to process what I'd heard. I asked him if he had shared this experience with his 2 daughters and he said No. He didn't want his family to think he was crazy. I left to pastor another church a year later and eventually heard that Leonard had passed away, but that his daughter had shared his ADC at his funeral service. Apparently, my sympathetic listening had encouraged him to share his ADC with his daughters.


(3b) You will remember the bald actor, Telly Savalas, who starred in the Kojak TV series. Telly shares an ADC analogous to Leonard's in an interview: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...D861&FORM=VIRE I suspect that the discarnate driver is trapped in Hades.
c
 
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5wize

Well-known member
You exhibit an appalling propensity to read self-serving details into what you see and read that are not there.
First, Scott Taylor is not a Christian, but rather a reincarnationist, despite his childhood Presbyterian roots.
Second, there is no evidence in the video that any family members present at the death vigil were Christians, not even the aunt who who was taken out of body.
Third, both Scott and the aunt had identical experiences, despite the fact that they were unaware of each other's paranormal participation.

More mindlessly false assumptions to protect you from evidence you find threatening! In fact, ALL of premonitions have come true--and I have more premonitions to share. So keep checking that thread for new posts. Also, you predictably overlook the other paranormal corroborating details of 2 of these premonitions.

(2) Here is an even more evidential shared NDE drawn from the book, "Lighted Passage." This book was brought to the attention of an agnostic friend of mine by a colleague who worked with him at HUD and was a relative of the author, Dr. Howell Vincent. Dr. Vincent, a Presbyterian minister, wrote this book, about his daughter Rea and her death in a car accident on her honeymoon. His description of a shared ADC involving his late first wife Nellie and other family members is quoted from p. 25:

"On at least 2 occasions this radiant mother had come to Rea in visible tangible form and talked with her...I was privileged to be present at one of these heavenly visits by Mother Nellie. Together with Rea I talked with Nellie, fully recognizing her face and form and voice. I saw her place her hand on Rea's head in blessing, and I saw her give Rea a flower, a calendula, which we pressed and kept. At that time 3 other members of our family were present, including Rea's second mother, Agnes, and they all saw Nellie and talked with her, as Rea and I did. We were all wide awake and walked around the room with Nellie."

Note the artifact given by Nellie as a memento of this ADC, a type of verification that is provided by other NDEs and ADCs. From an evidential perspective this testimony rivals the Gospel resurrection stories and, for that very reason, lends them added credibility. Rev. Vincent's testimony certainly opened my agnostic top HUD executive friend's heart to the Gospel and the possibility that Jesus really did rise from the dead.
So your theory is that common ghost stories told by people with predispositions to want to believe in an afterlife are proof of Christianity? Solid ground there.

You know, if you'll look up at the picture post I have above of a small section of my library you'll see that I am steeped in these stories. Studied them for entertainment and research for years. In fact the big black book "GHOSTS" is the complete investigation works of Ed and Loraine Warren.

The Japanese have some of the absolute best stories and writers and accounts. That doesn't prove Shinto Kami. The Hundu have a rich tradition of after death stories and ghosts. Would that prove lord Krishna to you? The middle east and Islam as well, much better stories than Washington Irving, Poe and LeFanau. Has Mohammad been proven to be true by these accounts then?

What you need is a good dose of James Randi.
 
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Berserk

Member
So your theory is that common ghost stories told by people with predispositions to want to believe in an afterlife are proof of Christianity? Solid ground there.

You know, if you'll look up at the picture post I have above of a small section of my library you'll see that I am steeped in these stories. The Japanese have some of the absolute best stories and writers and accounts. That doesn't prove Shinto Kami. The Hundu have a rich tradition of after death stories and ghosts. Would that prove lord Krishna to you? The middle east and Islam as well, much better stories than Washington Irving, Poe and LeFanau. Has Mohammad been proven to be true by these accounts then?
In typical fashion, you duck the verifications that confirm the NDEs and ADCs I'm reporting. For example, how can a hallucination of the deceased drive a truck with his Dad as passenger, confirm his unknown investments to his Dad to make estate settlement easier, and thus instantly eliminate his grief, hmm? Your only recourse is the claim that I or Leonard must be lying and that is precisely where I want to bring atheists on this site: i. e. they must postulate that evidence that confirms spiritual realities must a prior be the product of lies and delusions. That kneejerk reaction is as rational as the fundamentalist dismissal of all fossils as demonic inventions designed to deceive.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
I'm not sure which is more delusional - your anecdotal stories about having supernatural predictive abilities, or your expectation that rational people should take them seriously.
 
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