Neither Arminianism Nor Calvinism

Hark

Well-known member
Paul dealt with all kinds of problems but still fellowshipped with immature churches.

If you can't find literally anyone to fellowship and obey hebrews 10:25 with, and you see apostates behind every bush, then the problem might be in the mirror.
Paul also dealt with unrepentant brothers for why churches are to excommunicate them to lead them to repentance per 1 Corinthians 5:1-13.

Paul also addressed those who fell away from the faith as this iniquity was happening back in his days in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-15 and He continued to address the disorderly that will be damned by issuing the commandment to withdraw per 2 Thessalonians 3:1-7 but he pointed out that in withdrawing from them, it is not to treat them as an enemy, but to admonish them as brothers still 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15 because they are His.

Believers that think they can change the minds of an erring & unrepentant church should consider Paul's calling them out here.

2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

It is like a Catholic who believes they are saved but they are staying in the church to show their faith in Him so others may believe, but in the eyes of others, they cannot see their faith in Him that they are saved when to those that believe by staying within the church & doing the works within is how they are saved per their Catholic Catechism of #846. Also #846 with #847 is why today, the Pope tells Catholics not to convert unbelievers but non-Catholics Christians because the CC believes unbelievers are saved regardless. Such thinking makes one wonder why Jesus came at all. Would you agree that would be a time to walk away? Believe it or not, that is how bad the other churches are today when you consider the distant Presbytery ruling over churches that the pastor would be risking losing his job if they went against an erring Presbytery.
 

Simpletruther

Well-known member
Paul also dealt with unrepentant brothers for why churches are to excommunicate them to lead them to repentance per 1 Corinthians 5:1-13.

Paul also addressed those who fell away from the faith as this iniquity was happening back in his days in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-15 and He continued to address the disorderly that will be damned by issuing the commandment to withdraw per 2 Thessalonians 3:1-7 but he pointed out that in withdrawing from them, it is not to treat them as an enemy, but to admonish them as brothers still 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15 because they are His.

Believers that think they can change the minds of an erring & unrepentant church should consider Paul's calling them out here.

2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

It is like a Catholic who believes they are saved but they are staying in the church to show their faith in Him so others may believe, but in the eyes of others, they cannot see their faith in Him that they are saved when to those that believe by staying within the church & doing the works within is how they are saved per their Catholic Catechism of #846. Also #846 with #847 is why today, the Pope tells Catholics not to convert unbelievers but non-Catholics Christians because the CC believes unbelievers are saved regardless. Such thinking makes one wonder why Jesus came at all. Would you agree that would be a time to walk away? Believe it or not, that is how bad the other churches are today when you consider the distant Presbytery ruling over churches that the pastor would be risking losing his job if they went against an erring Presbytery.
But again, if you literally can’t fnd anyone to obey Hebrews 10:25 with, then either one of two things:

1. You are misapplying the scriptures and dividing over nonessentials.

2. You are the only non rebellious believer around.

My money is on number 1.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
I recognize the motive in your position, but I have to disagree with your advice.

If someone comes up to me and tells me that they are "Christian", the term is used so much has been so watered down, that I don't know if the person calling himself a "Christian":
- believing in one god or many;
- believes in the Trinity or not;
- believes in the deity of Jesus or not;
- believes in sola Scriptura or not;
- believes in other authorities or not;
- believes in faith alone or not;
- believes in praying to saints or not;
- even believes that God exists or not.

So in that regard, it's a meaningless label.

In contrast, if someone identifies as:
- Arminian;
- Calvinist;
- Roman Catholic;
- Presbyterian;
- Jehovah's Witness;
- Mormon;
- Seventh-day Adventist,
... I suddenly know a LOT about their theology, and I can more appropriately and more effectively communicate with them.

I've said it many times.... As early as 5-years-old, I know that "Anglican", and "Baptist", and "Methodist", and "Presbyterian", were all Christian denominations, so if someone identifies by a particular denomination, it is obvious that they also identify as Christian.

It's like saying that if you really want to be patriotic, you shouldn't identify as "New Yorker", or "Texan", or "Floridian", but only as "American". But if you live in one of the 50 states then you ARE American.

<sigh>

Calvinists do NOT "follow" Calvin.
Arminians do NOT "follow" Arminius.
Lutherans do NOT "follow" Luther.
Wesleyans do NOT "follow" Wesley.

They all follow CHRIST, to the best of their understanding.
The names are simply labels for the theology they hold.

So quoting 1 Cor. 3 is completely irrelevant and misplaced.

Most Calvinists don't look to "John Calvin" for our theology.
We look to the BIBLE for our theology.
John Calvin doesn't "define" Calvinism.
For instance, I reject Calvin's view of "infant baptism" as unBiblical.
But that's okay, since "Calvinism" does NOT mean "believe whatever John Calvin taught".

And yes, I fully believe that my theology follows ALL of the Scriptures. I've spent 30 years with my beliefs being attacked, and all attacks have failed.

Newsflash: Calvin was a sinner.
I'm sorry if you never realized that before.

But if you lived in that era, it is 99.99% certain that YOU would also have supported the execution of heretics. It would be arrogant to assume otherwise, and assume you were some "super-Christian" who was far more moral than any other Christian.

This is an example of "hindsight is always 20/20".

What "words" are you referring to?
Where did Calvin write, "I do not know Jesus Christ"?

People's opinion as to belief's importance is irrelevant, because according to the Bible there is nothing more important than belief.

If faith is belief based and the truth and reality of God is ONLY knowable with belief and in a believing mind, then there is nothing more important than belief and a believing mind in regards to the things of God, because without belief faith and the truth and reality of God is unknowable. God and the writers of the Bible didn't command us to believe, recommend to us belief, and commend us for believing 245 times in the NT alone because belief isn't important. But He and they did this because believers in Christ depend completely on belief in order to make the truth and reality of God and His Kingdom known to them.

You can tell a lot about people and where they are in regards to the truth and reality of God and His Kingdom from their view of belief and its importance.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
People's opinion as to belief's importance is irrelevant, because according to the Bible there is nothing more important than belief.

Really?
Is that written in lemon juice, and you have to heat it up with a light bulb to make it visible?

1Cor. 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is ............... charity.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Really?
Is that written in lemon juice, and you have to heat it up with a light bulb to make it visible?

1Cor. 13:13 And now abideth 1. faith, 2. hope, 3. charity, these three; but the greatest of these is ............... charity.

I believe that context is important in regards to revealing the truth contained in Scripture. Notice that the writer listed "faith" first, so this implies that our faith is the greatest love that we have, because in faith is the love of the truth and reality of God.

and now there doth remain faith, hope, love -- these three; and the greatest of these [is] love. (1 Corinthians 13:13)

When Christ was asked what commandment was greatest he answered what he believed was the most important commandment, and like him as believers we too are to “love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thine understanding -- this is a first and great command”.

So, context is important in understanding just what Christ was referring to and denoting when he says “love the Lord thy God” he was in fact referring to and denoting the love of God's truth and reality. As he is referring to and denoting what he believes to be the greatest love and truth of God, and that “love” would be referring to and denoting the love of the truth and reality of God. After all it is only in the truth we find in Christ that can set us free and only belief in His reality that can make us righteous before God.

When asked which commandment is greatest, And Jesus said to him, `Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thine understanding -- this is a first and great command; and the second [is] like to it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself; on these -- the two commands -- all the law and the prophets do hang.' (Matthew 22:37-40)

Jesus, therefore, said unto the Jews who believed in him, `If ye may remain in my word, truly my disciples ye are, and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.' (John 8:31-32)

What, then, shall we say Abraham our father, to have found, according to flesh? for if Abraham by works was declared righteous, he hath to boast -- but not before god; for what doth the writing say? `And Abraham did believe God, and it was reckoned to him -- to righteousness;' and to him who is working, the reward is not reckoned of grace, but of debt; and to him who is not working, and is believing upon Him who is declaring righteous the impious, his faith is reckoned -- to righteousness: even as David also doth speak of the happiness of the man to whom God doth reckon righteousness apart from works: `Happy they whose lawless acts were forgiven, and whose sins were covered; happy the man to whom the Lord may not reckon sin.' (Romans 4:1-8)

And ALL of this is based on belief. So, to pretend belief doesn't play the primary role in a believers faith is NOT true and completely illogical.
 
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