Neither Jesus Nor God From Heaven Spoke In Heavenly Tongues When The Holy Spirit Fell On Jesus At John's Baptism of Him.

Jabez

Active member
Shocking, but wholly true.

As well, the Angels in Scripture only spoke the common language of those they appeared to. The Angels seen in the various Visions and Visitations to Heaven did not speak any "Heavenly Languages," but always spoke the Earthly language of the Prophets involved.

Edit per mod. Do not misrepresent others.

From the rules:

No name-calling, insults, or mockery of a board poster/member. No negative comments of any sort concerning any board poster/member/moderator/administrator. The rule applies only to forum posters/members. Posters are personally responsible for any comments made on persons, not members of the forum.

Do not discuss a board poster on the forums/visitor messages/chat, do not comment using their user name, and, most importantly, no disrespectful comments about our Lord.
 
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Exeter

Member
More astounding is the love directive:

1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.

Desiring spiritual gifts is good, especially in order to speak forth God's Word:

1Co 14:1-4 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. (2) For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. (3) But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. (4) He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.
 

Exeter

Member
The modern display of purported spiritual gifts does not speak God's Word. So called "prophets" today are busy babblers. None can be named who are inerrant. All are brass and cymbals.
Watch out then, because we are told the Kingdom of Heaven is subject to tainting, as follows:

Ten Kingdom Of Heaven Similitudes

1. Wheat with Tares Growing:
Mat 13:24-25
Another parable He put forth to them, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; (25) but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way.

2. Branches with Birds Nesting:
Mat 13:31-32
Another parable He put forth to them, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field, (32) which indeed is the least of all the seeds; but when it is grown it is greater than the herbs and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and nest in its branches."

3. Flour with Leaven Spreading:
Mat 13:33
Another parable He spoke to them: "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened."

4. Field with Treasure Hiding:
Mat 13:44
"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and hid; and for joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.

5. Merchant with Expensive Pearl Purchasing:
Mat 13:45-46
"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking beautiful pearls, (46) who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had and bought it.

6. Dragnet with Fish Gathering:
Mat 13:47-48
"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, (48) which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away.

7. King with Debt Reconciling:
Mat 18:23-24
Therefore the Kingdom of Heaven is like a certain king, who wanted to reconcile accounts with his servants. (24) When he had begun to reconcile, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents.

8. Landowner with Labourer Hiring:
Mat 20:1-2
"For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. (2) Now when he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard.

9. King with Wedding Guest Inviting:
Mat 22:2-3
"The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, (3) and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come.
Mat 22:10-11 So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests. (11) "But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment.

10. Virgins with Lamp Trimming:
Mat 25:1-2
"Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. (2) Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
Mat 25:10-13 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut. (11) "Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, 'Lord, Lord, open to us!' (12) But he answered and said, 'Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.' (13) "Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.

The Instructing Of Scribes Concerning The Kingdom Of Heaven:

Mat 13:51-52
Jesus said to them, "Have you understood all these things?" They said to Him, "Yes, Lord." (52) Then He said to them, "Therefore every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old."
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
Shocking, but wholly true.

As well, the Angels in Scripture only spoke the common language of those they appeared to. The Angels seen in the various Visions and Visitations to Heaven did not speak any "Heavenly Languages," but always spoke the Earthly language of the Prophets involved.
This seems very important to you. I'm not sure why. God is not required to speak in tongues...and I'm sure you will agree that He can if He wants to.

When Paul was greeted by Jesus on the road to Damascus, we have a very interesting description of the encounter. First in chapter nine, it goes like this: 7 The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless. They heard the voice but did not see anyone.

But Paul, testifying in chapter 22, puts it this way: " 9 My companions saw the light, but they could not understand the voice of the One speaking to me." When he testifies again in chapter 26, he adds the detail that he heard Jesus speaking in the Hebrew tongue.

A Pentecostal can tell you what is going on...It's exactly as it was on the day of Pentecost: 120 people spoke in tongues, and everyone around them each heard those words, each in their own tongue.

On the road to Damascus, only Paul could interpret the tongues he was hearing...and he heard those tongues in his own language, while the others heard only gibberish.

There is much you do not understand, apparently, and much you seem to fear. Where does that fear come from?

Thanks for posting.
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
Per the Forum TOS, you are to confine your personal remarks upon posters to your own mind, or convey them via the messaging function. This is how Lord Jesus is to be honored.
When you use the second person pronoun to respond to me, you contradict your own admonition.

Feel free to respond to the biblical points I outlined. My posts make observations. I do not mean to offend. Ever. This is a forum whose value would plumb the depths of animus if I meant otherwise.
 

Jabez

Active member
When you use the second person pronoun to respond to me, you contradict your own admonition.

Feel free to respond to the biblical points I outlined. My posts make observations. I do not mean to offend. Ever. This is a forum whose value would plumb the depths of animus if I meant otherwise.
Plumb as you wish. Keep your unnecessary personal comments under the washing of Christ's shed blood.

Feel free to show how any aspect of Pentecostalism duplicates or follows a single feature of Acts ch. 2.
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
Plumb as you wish. Keep your unnecessary personal comments under the washing of Christ's shed blood.

Feel free to show how any aspect of Pentecostalism duplicates or follows a single feature of Acts ch. 2.
I did. You prefer this for a response. This is not an answer and I see no need to repeat what I took the time to say above.
 

Jabez

Active member
I did. You prefer this for a response. This is not an answer and I see no need to repeat what I took the time to say above.
As I thought, no actual witness is possible today about following what occurred in Acts ch. 2.

1.) No Command from Christ to wait in one accord for power.
2.) No mighty rushing wind from heaven filling the building.
3.) No visible appearance of cloven fire resting on everyone.
4.) No spontaneous utterances of all Believers present in known foreign languages spoken by international Jews from every nation.
5.) Nothing at 10-AM in the morning.
6.) No Apostolic preaching of just a few minute's length which brings thousands into faith and baptism.
7.) No additional signs and wonders performed by Apostles.
8.) No new Believers selling all their possessions, and bringing their net worth to Apostles and the Church.

Yet, many people oddly call themselves "Pentecostal." Bless them in their emotional diligence.
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
As I thought, no actual witness is possible today about following what occurred in Acts ch. 2.

1.) No Command from Christ to wait in one accord for power.
2.) No mighty rushing wind from heaven filling the building.
3.) No visible appearance of cloven fire resting on everyone.
4.) No spontaneous utterances of all Believers present in known foreign languages spoken by international Jews from every nation.
5.) Nothing at 10-AM in the morning.
6.) No Apostolic preaching of just a few minute's length which brings thousands into faith and baptism.
7.) No additional signs and wonders performed by Apostles.
8.) No new Believers selling all their possessions, and bringing their net worth to Apostles and the Church.

Yet, many people oddly call themselves "Pentecostal." Bless them in their emotional diligence.
Thank you. Though you repeat many of your initial comments that were not removed, there is substance here. We can have a fruitful chat. I’ll be back.
 
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Jabez

Active member

Shocking, but wholly true.

As well, the Angels in Scripture only spoke the common language of those they appeared to. The Angels seen in the various Visions and Visitations to Heaven did not speak any "Heavenly Languages," but always spoke the Earthly language of the Prophets involved.

Edit per mod. Do not misrepresent others.

From the rules:

No name-calling, insults, or mockery of a board poster/member. No negative comments of any sort concerning any board poster/member/moderator/administrator. The rule applies only to forum posters/members. Posters are personally responsible for any comments made on persons, not members of the forum.

Do not discuss a board poster on the forums/visitor messages/chat, do not comment using their user name, and, most importantly, no disrespectful comments about our Lord.

Thank you. Though you repeat many of your initial comments that were not removed, there is substance here. We can have a fruitful chat. I’ll be back.
Ready to learn of Pentecostal substance.
Any fruitfulness will need to be honest upon Scripture, rather than upon imaginary proceedings.
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
As I thought, no actual witness is possible today about following what occurred in Acts ch. 2.
You're limiting yourself to Acts 2. I recommend a thorough study of the entire Bible, especially where prophets are concerned. You will see the prophets were never limited by God to periods, but by sin. "The Word of the Lord was rare in those days." As in the late days of the Judges, so has the Word been rare right up to the 20th century, where Pentecost exploded, and Christianity spread as it did at the beginning of the church.

Fun facts on prophecy that are worthy of note, because they are timely and applicable:
Moses asked for and received seventy, filled with the spirit to prophesy, not one of whose prophecies were ever recorded.
Obadiah hid one hundred prophets from Jezebel, not one of whose prophecies was ever recorded.
There were never four hundred "silent years." Anna prophesied without ever being challenged in the temple for decades. Simeon likewise. Caiaphas even prophesied, "because he was high priest..."

Doctrines in the modern church are prone to ignore sound exegesis, and to propound egregious fallacy based on lack of experience, lack of understanding and centuries old tradition that is based on the same.

So...by the numbers:
1.) No Command from Christ to wait in one accord for power.
That's nonsense...Let me clarify:
Do you suggest that the Acts of the Apostles were not precedent setting, and exemplary?
Do you suggest that it's a bad idea to "wait in one accord for power?"
Do you suggest that it is a good idea to "have a form of godliness, AND to deny the power thereof?" Paul warned us of such who do just that.
Do you think that "they that wait upon the Lord will" NOT "renew their strength?" "They will" NOT "mount up on wings as eagles?" "They will run and" WILL "grow weary?" "They will walk" AND "faint?"

Or do you suggest that there is no power promised in Isaiah's word here and elsewhere? Do you understand that "waiting upon the Lord" is an Old Testament concept whose thread is found throughout the scriptures? How do you think David pleased the Lord?
2.) No mighty rushing wind from heaven filling the building.
I'm not sure what the issue is. Are you saying that this CANNOT happen? Or are you saying every time the Holy Spirit came, in Samaria, on Cornelius' family, on Paul, in Ephesus...it was invalidated because the wind didn't blow and no flames were seen?

And are you claiming revelation knowledge of all the times the Holy Spirit came on a group throughout history, beginning with the death of the Spirit Filled church during the Jesus wars in the first centuries? Because there are eye-witness testimonies to the contrary throughout the centuries.
3.) No visible appearance of cloven fire resting on everyone.
Again...immaterial. Cornelius' family received the SAME gift as that the apostles received AT THE BEGINNING...without the flames...And the witnesses testified to that effect BECAUSE they heard them speaking in tongues NO ONE UNDERSTOOD. (There were no foreigners in Cornelius' house. Everyone there spoke the same language. No need for tongues, as the false doctrine claims their necessity on the day of pentecost.)
4.) No spontaneous utterances of all Believers present in known foreign languages spoken by international Jews from every nation.
Nope...but your false assumption is that they spoke in "known foreign languages." That didn't work in Cornelius' house nor in Ephesus, where, again, ALL spoke the same single language. All knew each other, and there were no foreigners present to require an unknown "known" language for "evangelism." Yet they all spoke in tongues...exactly as Paul describes the gift so clearly in 1 Corinthians 14.

You are ignoring that the Parthian and the Mede are standing side by side listening to people speaking in tongues on the day of Pentecost, and each is hearing everything spoken in his own language. The Parthian hears Parthian and the Mede hears Mede. Three thousand people were not separated into language groups so that Apostles, suddenly gifted in linguistic discernment, could assign the appropriate tongues speaker to the assigned group. That concept is impossible fantasy, but it gets taught in the church in total ignorance. With the gift comes the interpretation by the same Spirit. When Paul was on the road to Damascus, he heard Jesus speak in Hebrew...the folks who were with him did not understand the speech. Clearly Jesus was speaking in tongues, and only Paul had the interpretation.
5.) Nothing at 10-AM in the morning.
Has that become an issue? Why? Biblically?
6.) No Apostolic preaching of just a few minute's length which brings thousands into faith and baptism.
Millions came to the Lord in Nigeria in the nineties when Reinhard Bonnke preached. Millions.
7.) No additional signs and wonders performed by Apostles.
When are you talking? I'm not sure what you mean. Are you talking about healings and miracles that continued throughout the book of Acts right up to the last chapter, where Paul forewarns of a church that will "hear and not understand, lest they should turn and repent...and I should heal them?" ...quoting that verse from Isaiah for the fourth time in the NT. Or are you talking about the healings and miracles that are still being manifested where the Word of the Lord is being preached, especially in Muslim countries and where Christianity has not taught unbelief?
8.) No new Believers selling all their possessions, and bringing their net worth to Apostles and the Church.
Have you ever heard of Benedict? There are still Benedictins and Franciscans today...evangelical groups who do just that.

Yet, many people oddly call themselves "Pentecostal." Bless them in their emotional diligence.
Folks who have lived and understood Pentecost for fifty years, since 1970, and have traveled to work on four continents and preached and worked in a dozen nations, and have seen and witnessed what Jesus promised they would, have that pesky tendency...that's for sure...
 
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Jabez

Active member
You're limiting yourself to Acts 2. I recommend a thorough study of the entire Bible, especially where prophets are concerned. You will see the prophets were never limited by God to periods, but by sin. "The Word of the Lord was rare in those days." As in the late days of the Judges, so has the Word been rare right up to the 20th century, where Pentecost exploded, and Christianity spread as it did at the beginning of the church.

Fun facts on prophecy that are worthy of note, because they are timely and applicable:
Moses asked for and received seventy, filled with the spirit to prophesy, not one of whose prophecies were ever recorded.
Obadiah hid one hundred prophets from Jezebel, not one of whose prophecies was ever recorded.
There were never four hundred "silent years." Anna prophesied without ever being challenged in the temple for decades. Simeon likewise. Caiaphas even prophesied, "because he was high priest..."

Doctrines in the modern church are prone to ignore sound exegesis, and to propound egregious fallacy based on lack of experience, lack of understanding and centuries old tradition that is based on the same.

So...by the numbers:
That's nonsense...Let me clarify:
Do you suggest that the Acts of the Apostles were not precedent setting, and exemplary?
Do you suggest that it's a bad idea to "wait in one accord for power?"
Do you suggest that it is a good idea to "have a form of godliness, AND to deny the power thereof?" Paul warned us of such who do just that.
Do you think that "they that wait upon the Lord will" NOT "renew their strength?" "They will" NOT "mount up on wings as eagles?" "They will run and" WILL "grow weary?" "They will walk" AND "faint?"

Or do you suggest that there is no power promised in Isaiah's word here and elsewhere? Do you understand that "waiting upon the Lord" is an Old Testament concept whose thread is found throughout the scriptures? How do you think David pleased the Lord?
I'm not sure what the issue is. Are you saying that this CANNOT happen? Or are you saying every time the Holy Spirit came, in Samaria, on Cornelius' family, on Paul, in Ephesus...it was invalidated because the wind didn't blow and no flames were seen?

And are you claiming revelation knowledge of all the times the Holy Spirit came on a group throughout history, beginning with the death of the Spirit Filled church during the Jesus wars in the first centuries? Because there are eye-witness testimonies to the contrary throughout the centuries.
Again...immaterial. Cornelius' family received the SAME gift as that the apostles received AT THE BEGINNING...without the flames...And the witnesses testified to that effect BECAUSE they heard them speaking in tongues NO ONE UNDERSTOOD. (There were no foreigners in Cornelius' house. Everyone there spoke the same language. No need for tongues, as the false doctrine claims their necessity on the day of pentecost.)
Nope...but your false assumption is that they spoke in "known foreign languages." That didn't work in Cornelius' house nor in Ephesus, where, again, ALL spoke the same single language. All knew each other, and there were no foreigners present to require an unknown "known" language for "evangelism." Yet they all spoke in tongues...exactly as Paul describes the gift so clearly in 1 Corinthians 14.

You are ignoring that the Parthian and the Mede are standing side by side listening to people speaking in tongues on the day of Pentecost, and each is hearing everything spoken in his own language. The Parthian hears Parthian and the Mede hears Mede. Three thousand people were not separated into language groups so that Apostles, suddenly gifted in linguistic discernment, could assign the appropriate tongues speaker to the assigned group. That concept is impossible fantasy, but it gets taught in the church in total ignorance. With the gift comes the interpretation by the same Spirit. When Paul was on the road to Damascus, he heard Jesus speak in Hebrew...the folks who were with him did not understand the speech. Clearly Jesus was speaking in tongues, and only Paul had the interpretation.
Has that become an issue? Why? Biblically?
Millions came to the Lord in Nigeria in the nineties when Reinhard Bonnke preached. Millions.
When are you talking? I'm not sure what you mean. Are you talking about healings and miracles that continued throughout the book of Acts right up to the last chapter, where Paul forewarns of a church that will "hear and not understand, lest they should turn and repent...and I should heal them?" ...quoting that verse from Isaiah for the fourth time in the NT. Or are you talking about the healings and miracles that are still being manifested where the Word of the Lord is being preached, especially in Muslim countries and where Christianity has not taught unbelief?
Have you ever heard of Benedict? There are still Benedictins and Franciscans today...evangelical groups who do just that.

Folks who have lived and understood Pentecost for fifty years, since 1970, and have traveled to work on four continents and preached and worked in a dozen nations, and have seen and witnessed what Jesus promised they would, have that pesky tendency...that's for sure...
I recommend a review be made of the current so-called Prophets who are full of error upon repeated occasions, thereby proving Cessationism.
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
I recommend a review be made of the current so-called Prophets who are full of error upon repeated occasions, thereby proving Cessationism.
In what way do anecdotes drawn from todays web clarify scripture? Answer that, and we can look and see.

I took the time to answer your post with a scriptural overview because I value the contribution folks like you make. No one is above criticism. Yours is valuable, even if sometimes misplaced. I hope you can take the time to answer my post. I'm looking forward to your insights.

Jesus forewarned us that "The night is coming where no man can work..." He foretold of a day where the signs and wonders would be hidden by darkness...He never said our destiny is to live in the night. What will it look like when, as in Muslim countries today, folks are awakened to the gospel of the Jesus Christ by dreams, visions, signs and wonders.

The best book I've read recently is by Robby Dawkins, an evangelist who was wearing "Jesus is God" t-shirts in Kabul before the city fell, written in English and Arabic. His book, well worth reading, Identity Thief. There are many first-hand anecdotes...so not scripture (and to be taken with a grain of salt), but with reference to corresponding scripture and biblical acts.
 
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Jabez

Active member
Loo
In what way do anecdotes drawn from todays web clarify scripture? Answer that, and we can look and see.

I took the time to answer your post with a scriptural overview because I value the contribution folks like you make. No one is above criticism. Yours is valuable, even if sometimes misplaced. I hope you can take the time to answer my post. I'm looking forward to your insights.

Jesus forewarned us that "The night is coming where no man can work..." He foretold of a day where the signs and wonders would be hidden by darkness...He never said our destiny is to live in the night. What will it look like when, as in Muslim countries today, folks are awakened to the gospel of the Jesus Christ by dreams, visions, signs and wonders.

The best book I've read recently is by Robby Dawkins, an evangelist who was wearing "Jesus is God" t-shirts in Kabul before the city fell, written in English and Arabic. His book, well worth reading, Identity Thief. There are many first-hand anecdotes...so not scripture (and to be taken with a grain of salt), but with reference to corresponding scripture and biblical acts.
Anyone can "look and see" apart from my answers you try to ask for in a challenging manner. As well, you represent no group of "we." This may be new information for you. It is an issue of honesty and accuracy.

Can you providr a name and information about any inscrutable Prophet alive today who has the Pedigree of Samuel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, John the Baptist, Ezekiel Elijah, Elisha, Hosea, Amos, Daniel, Enoch, Anna of the Temple? If not then God no longer speaks in 2022 through reliable Prophets.

There exist no accounts apart from Scripture of the supernatural features detailed in Acts ch. 2 and other passages.
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
Anyone can "look and see" apart from my answers you try to ask for in a challenging manner.
I'm having difficulty understanding this statement...Look and see what? I've not seen your answers to my questions or the several biblical points I'm making.

As well, you represent no group of "we." This may be new information for you. It is an issue of honesty and accuracy.
You have no clue what group I represent, but I began informing myself in 1970. And I've worked as a Christian missionary in over a dozen countries on four continents. I've been arrested for "possession of subversive literature with the intent to convert a Muslim," and been dragged as Jesus forewarned before the magistrates in a North African country. There's not been a lot of "new" information lately.

And honesty and accuracy are paramount to these discussions. You are correct.

Can you providr a name and information about any inscrutable Prophet alive today who has the Pedigree of Samuel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, John the Baptist, Ezekiel Elijah, Elisha, Hosea, Amos, Daniel, Enoch, Anna of the Temple? If not then God no longer speaks in 2022 through reliable Prophets.
Few prophets had a pedigree. Amos was just a shepherd. Elijah was a Tishbite...that's all we know. Anna was of the tribe of Asher, and we know of NO prophecy she ever spoke...despite decades of prophesying in the Temple without getting expulsed by Scribe or Pharisee or Sadducee.

I think you're asking if I know of folks with adequately admirable, spirit-empowered ministry that would measure up to those in Hebrews 11. I've. been close to, even involved in some very reputable ministries. They have measured to biblical standards if you are honest with those standards.

Let me explain. Before reading ahead, assess Solomon. Good guy? Or bad guy? He had seven hundred wives, three hundred concubines and built temples to Asherah for several of them. He also multiplied horses despite Moses' warning. So...what do you remember? His pedigree? His excellence. I've met several ministers of today who compete with Solomon. I'm thinking you'd be more tolerant of the excesses of Samson or Solomon than you would be of modern ministers. What do you think? I've heard prophecies that were pinpoint accurate and life changing. I've watched self-proclaimed prophets fail abjectly with no effort on my part. That is biblical...we're told to test everything. To reject is disobedience to the Gospel Paul preached.

There exist no accounts apart from Scripture of the supernatural features detailed in Acts ch. 2 and other passages.
Let me restate your claim: There exists no account apart from scripture of the supernatural detailed in Acts to which I am obligated to lend credence.

I have seen what you have not seen. I am required to believe what I have seen and heard. Under no wise would I suggest that you should believe me, not having seen. But Acts set the level of my expectations very high, so that when I was arrested, I knew what to expect, and I was not disappointed.

We are not REQUIRED to believe anything outside of scripture, but sometimes it is helpful to trust each other.
 

Jabez

Active member
I'm having difficulty understanding this statement...Look and see what? I've not seen your answers to my questions or the several biblical points I'm making.

You have no clue what group I represent, but I began informing myself in 1970. And I've worked as a Christian missionary in over a dozen countries on four continents. I've been arrested for "possession of subversive literature with the intent to convert a Muslim," and been dragged as Jesus forewarned before the magistrates in a North African country. There's not been a lot of "new" information lately.

And honesty and accuracy are paramount to these discussions. You are correct.

Few prophets had a pedigree. Amos was just a shepherd. Elijah was a Tishbite...that's all we know. Anna was of the tribe of Asher, and we know of NO prophecy she ever spoke...despite decades of prophesying in the Temple without getting expulsed by Scribe or Pharisee or Sadducee.

I think you're asking if I know of folks with adequately admirable, spirit-empowered ministry that would measure up to those in Hebrews 11. I've. been close to, even involved in some very reputable ministries. They have measured to biblical standards if you are honest with those standards.

Let me explain. Before reading ahead, assess Solomon. Good guy? Or bad guy? He had seven hundred wives, three hundred concubines and built temples to Asherah for several of them. He also multiplied horses despite Moses' warning. So...what do you remember? His pedigree? His excellence. I've met several ministers of today who compete with Solomon. I'm thinking you'd be more tolerant of the excesses of Samson or Solomon than you would be of modern ministers. What do you think? I've heard prophecies that were pinpoint accurate and life changing. I've watched self-proclaimed prophets fail abjectly with no effort on my part. That is biblical...we're told to test everything. To reject is disobedience to the Gospel Paul preached.

Let me restate your claim: There exists no account apart from scripture of the supernatural detailed in Acts to which I am obligated to lend credence.

I have seen what you have not seen. I am required to believe what I have seen and heard. Under no wise would I suggest that you should believe me, not having seen. But Acts set the level of my expectations very high, so that when I was arrested, I knew what to expect, and I was not disappointed.

We are not REQUIRED to believe anything outside of scripture, but sometimes it is helpful to trust each other.
Did you forget writing the words "look and see" and "we?" Perhaps they were just rambled as part of supposed rema talk.

Please share with me what specific aspects of Acts ch. 2 are replicated by Pentecostals in order to honestly assign that name to themselves.
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
Did you forget writing the words "look and see" and "we?" Perhaps they were just rambled as part of supposed rema talk.
Sure I do...

This is frustrating indeed: I actually wrote, "In what way do anecdotes drawn from today's web clarify scripture? Answer that, and we can look and see.

Do you always take random words out of context and scramble them to make an accusation? How does that serve anyone in any way?

So...Look more slowly at what I wrote, please...Begin with this: "In what way do anecdotes [in context: "a review be made of the current so-called Prophets who are full of error upon repeated occasions..."] drawn from today's web clarify scripture?" Can you answer that?

And can you tell me how, as you claim, anyone's error proves anything about cessationism, except in some weird, self-congratulatory way? I'm not required to believe anyone. I AM, however, required to believe God as HE alone has the right to decide what form that communication will take. Your claims notwithstanding, He is not obligated to stop pouring out His spirit at any time, and the gifts He gives cannot be forgiven by your traditions that only nullify the promises for you alone.

Please share with me what specific aspects of Acts ch. 2 are replicated by Pentecostals in order to honestly assign that name to themselves.
How long do you think this conversation will last? I began seeing Pentecost in 1970, and He's been consistent, being God, as He is. I do have a lot of eye-witness accounts of what I've seen. What of my words will you believe because I'm telling you?

Let me try this, and you tell me what you think: It was demonstrated to me that Cessationism is a deadly lie, because I WAS dragged before the magistrates of a Muslim North African town (where it is illegal to possess Bible studies in Arabic), as Jesus foretold, and I did not prepare in advance the answers I would give, according to His instructions...and the HOLY SPIRIT did give me the words to say as Jesus promised. I know this, because for three days, my interrogators kept asking me how I knew what I was telling them. We ended talking about them, and their families, and God's love...not the laws of smuggling I'd broken.

So let me ask you: Have you ever been dragged before the magistrates for the gospel? Would you expect the Holy Spirit would inspire your speech as Jesus promised He would? Or is that "not for today" because today did not end up in the Bible? How does a cessationist deal with the promises Jesus...who is God...promised?
 
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Jabez

Active member
Sure I do...

This is frustrating indeed: I actually wrote, "In what way do anecdotes drawn from today's web clarify scripture? Answer that, and we can look and see.

Do you always take random words out of context and scramble them to make an accusation? How does that serve anyone in any way?

So...Look more slowly at what I wrote, please...Begin with this: "In what way do anecdotes [in context: "a review be made of the current so-called Prophets who are full of error upon repeated occasions..."] drawn from today's web clarify scripture?" Can you answer that?

And can you tell me how, as you claim, anyone's error proves anything about cessationism, except in some weird, self-congratulatory way? I'm not required to believe anyone. I AM, however, required to believe God as HE alone has the right to decide what form that communication will take. Your claims notwithstanding, He is not obligated to stop pouring out His spirit at any time, and the gifts He gives cannot be forgiven by your traditions that only nullify the promises for you alone.

How long do you think this conversation will last? I began seeing Pentecost in 1970, and He's been consistent, being God, as He is. I do have a lot of eye-witness accounts of what I've seen. What of my words will you believe because I'm telling you?

Let me try this, and you tell me what you think: It was demonstrated to me that Cessationism is a deadly lie, because I WAS dragged before the magistrates of a Muslim North African town (where it is illegal to possess Bible studies in Arabic), as Jesus foretold, and I did not prepare in advance the answers I would give, according to His instructions...and the HOLY SPIRIT did give me the words to say as Jesus promised. I know this, because for three days, my interrogators kept asking me how I knew what I was telling them. We ended talking about them, and their families, and God's love...not the laws of smuggling I'd broken.

So let me ask you: Have you ever been dragged before the magistrates for the gospel? Would you expect the Holy Spirit would inspire your speech as Jesus promised He would? Or is that "not for today" because today did not end up in the Bible? How does a cessationist deal with the promises Jesus...who is God...promised?
Acts Ch. 2 has nothing on the Text about being dragged anywhere before Magistrates.

Did you have actual narrative about Pentecostals today duplicating any specific feature of Acts Ch.-2? It requires only a simple and honest answer, not a windy and divergent explanation.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Acts Ch. 2 has nothing on the Text about being dragged anywhere before Magistrates.

Did you have actual narrative about Pentecostals today duplicating any specific feature of Acts Ch.-2? It requires only a simple and honest answer, not a windy and divergent explanation.
The Lord Bless you and heal your deepest needs.
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
Acts Ch. 2 has nothing on the Text about being dragged anywhere before Magistrates.
No. That's in the gospels more than once. It represents one of the greatest boons a believer has being filled with the Spirit with the gifts Paul describes. These gifts, the Cessationist claims, are not for today, and I mention them because, since arrests are obviously for today, the gifts proved necessary, indeed valid and effective, for the arrested.

Did you have actual narrative about Pentecostals today duplicating any specific feature of Acts Ch.-2? It requires only a simple and honest answer, not a windy and divergent explanation.
I think I'm beginning to understand your claim, now. Correct me if I'm wrong:

You're claiming that, because, when the Holy Spirit came both visibly and audibly on the day of Pentecost, He set the standard for His coming, and no experience of Him is valid unless there are sounds like rushing, mighty winds, and individual flames over folks' head?

Is that right? You're looking for visible manifestations?

Can I help you understand why that is so weird a claim, and absolutely unbiblical?

The analogous coming of the Holy Spirit in the OT happened when the Spirit of God lit the fires on the altars of the Temple, and entered the Holy of Holies. You had actual fires, and sounds and...get this...the "priests could not stand to minister." You had the same drunken behavior evident on the Day of Pentecost after the Resurrection.

Now, understand this: NO ONE in the days of Solomon ever claimed that NO sacrifice was ever valid unless it was lit by God, and not by matches. That fire from heaven happened once then...and then, once again with Elijah on Mt. Carmel a few hundred years later. The priests, fortunately, recovered and stood and ministered. Your expectations are artificially ginned up to unbiblical levels.

On the other hand, the history of the church is rife with the Holy Spirit appearing over venues, for example at Azusa street, as a rainbow drawing folks from the highways to see what was happening. It has often happened that folks could not "stand to minister" when the Holy Spirit came upon them. The press coined the term "holy rollers" to describe what was happening in the late nineteenth century during the famous holiness tent revivals in Kansas.
 
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