New creations through faith and regeneration

Sketo

Well-known member
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. - 1 Corinthians 2:14

Natural person = Unregenerate Person = Spiritually dead man!
You do understand it is talking about the deeper things of God which are revealed by the spirit
No! It is talking about the very message Paul is preaching as Paul himself confirms in 1 Cor. 1:21 here...

“For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.”

If you say that “those who believe” are natural persons then your assumption is in direct contradiction to 1 Cor 2:14 above!


This does not concern the gospel
Wrong... as Paul confirmed himself “through the folly of what we preach”!

which is written with the presumption of being understandable
That is not Paul’s “presumption”! 1 Cor 2:14
You can assume different than Paul if you want but it is not advisable!
John 20:31 —ESV
“but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”
Are you assuming here that The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are (not) folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are (not) spiritually discerned. - 1 Corinthians 2:14

You wouldn’t contradict Paul would you?
Rom. 10:17 —ESV
“So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.”
Are you assuming here that The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are (not) folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are (not) spiritually discerned. - 1 Corinthians 2:14

You wouldn’t contradict Paul would you?
2 Tim. 3:15 —ESV
“and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.”
Are you assuming here that The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are (not) folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are (not) spiritually discerned. - 1 Corinthians 2:14

You wouldn’t contradict Paul would you?
Is. 55:11 —ESV
“so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.”
Are you assuming here that The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are (not) folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are (not) spiritually discerned. - 1 Corinthians 2:14

You wouldn’t contradict Paul would you?
Rom. 1:16 —ESV
“¶ For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.”
Are you assuming here that The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are (not) folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are (not) spiritually discerned. - 1 Corinthians 2:14

You wouldn’t contradict Paul would you?
 

Sketo

Well-known member
This refers to those who rejecting the gospel as foolishness and are thus perishing
Everyone is “perishing” unless God regenerates them!
It does not state all regard the gospel as foolishness
That’s true! Those who are regenerated (no longer “natural person”) reguard the gospel as something other than “foolishness”!
If no one could understand the gospel how is this possible

1 Cor. 1:21 —ESV
“For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.”
Answer: Regeneration!
Notice here Paul calls his message “folly”!
or this this

John 20:31 —ESV
“but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”
Answer: Regeneration results in belief which results in eternal life!
Again, this text never suggests that mankind is born unable to respond to God’s clearly discerned gospel appeal.
And again... You are wrong because Paul who said “through the folly of what we preach” also said...
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. - 1 Corinthians 2:14

It only affirms that the mystery of the gospel must be discerned for us, which it has been.
And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. 1 Corinthians 2:13

Remember this verse does NOT sayinterpreting spiritual truths to those who are” natural!

Why?

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. - 1 Corinthians 2:14

Natural man must be regenerated, made spiritual man first, in order to understand and believe the Gospel!
As Paul states, “When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit.” Eph. 3:4
Are you assuming here that The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are (not) folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are (not) spiritually discerned. - 1 Corinthians 2:14

You wouldn’t contradict Paul would you?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
All believers were in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world Eph 1 4
All who believe are in Christ when they believe not before

Eph. 1:13 —KJV
“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”
 

TomFL

Well-known member
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. - 1 Corinthians 2:14

Natural person = Unregenerate Person = Spiritually dead man!
TomFL said:
You do understand it is talking about the deeper things of God which are revealed by the spirit
No! It is talking about the very message Paul is preaching as Paul himself confirms in 1 Cor. 1:21 here...

“For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.”

To save those that believe


So men are able to understand preaching and believe

It is as I told you a gospel message from one who had received revelation could be understood and and be believed

Just as the presumption is everywhere

John 20:31 —ESV
“but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”

2 Tim. 3:15 —ESV
“and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.”

In any case the whole passage is about wisdom

human wisdom verses the wisdom that comes from God

1 Cor. 1:17–21 —ESV
“For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
¶ For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”
¶ Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.”

It looks at those being saved that being is important it it talking about one who is on the path to salvation

I am saved I am being saved I will be saved and comparing it to those on the path to perishing having regarded the cross as foolish and do not believe

Further in chapter 2

1 Cor. 2:1–8 —ESV
Ҧ And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom.
For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.
And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling,
and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
¶ Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away.
But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory.
None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.”

The reference is to a secret and hidden wisdom not the gospel which is not hidden






I
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Everyone is “perishing” unless God regenerates them!

If you look at the context

1 Cor. 1:20–31 —ESV
Ҧ Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.
For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom,
but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles,
but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
¶ For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth.
But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong;
God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are,
so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.
And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,
so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.””

it is seen it is those who believe themselves wise through human wisdom who are the ones that are perishing

those not trusting in human wisdom are not perishing
 

Sketo

Well-known member
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. - 1 Corinthians 2:14

Natural person = Unregenerate Person = Spiritually dead man!

No! It is talking about the very message Paul is preaching as Paul himself confirms in 1 Cor. 1:21 here...

“For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.”

To save those that believe
Are you assuming that a “natural person” can believe over and against what Paul clearly says in 1 Cor 2:14?

But the one who endures (in belief) to the end will be saved. - Matthew 24:13

Dont stumble over the word “saved” as if it’s order is significant to prove your point!


So men are able to understand preaching and believe
According to Paul then “natural” men are NOT able until they are regenerated!
If you would like to disagree with him... that’s your error!
It is as I told you a gospel message from one who had received revelation could be understood and and be believed
And as I have repeatedly pointed out...
And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. 1 Corinthians 2:13

Remember this verse does NOT sayinterpreting spiritual truths to those who are” natural!

Why?

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. - 1 Corinthians 2:14

Natural man must be regenerated, made spiritual man first, in order to understand and believe the Gospel!
Just as the presumption is everywhere
Not if you take off your glasses and listen to Paul!
In any case the whole passage is about wisdom

human wisdom verses the wisdom that comes from God
Yes
natural” wisdom = “folly”!
spiritual” wisdom = “belief” to the end will be saved!
1 Cor. 1:17–21 —ESV
“For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
¶ For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”
¶ Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.”

It looks at those being saved that being is important it it talking about one who is on the path to salvation
Yes “that being is important”!
I agree! We are “being” saved by God by regeneration!
Regeneration is part of Gods “path” in his process of salvation!
I am saved I am being saved I will be saved
It’s good that you acknowledge that “saved” does not necessitate order!
and comparing it to those on the path to perishing having regarded the cross as foolish and do not believe
Because they are not “being” saved at that time and may never be!
Further in chapter 2

1 Cor. 2:1–8 —ESV
Ҧ And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom.
For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.
And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling,
and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
¶ Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away.
But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory.
None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.” (Natural people)

The reference is to a secret and hidden wisdom not the gospel which is not hidden
You are saying “we impart” is referring to them “imparting” “not the gospel”?

What are they “imparting” if “not the gospel”?

This is nonsense!

And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. 1 Corinthians 2:13

Remember this verse does NOT say “interpreting spiritual truths to those who are” natural!

Why?

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. - 1 Corinthians 2:14

Natural man must be regenerated, made spiritual man first, in order to understand and believe the Gospel!
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
All who believe are in Christ when they believe not before

Eph. 1:13 —KJV
“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”
Believers are in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world Eph 1 4
 

Iconoclast

Active member
You do understand it is talking about the deeper things of God which are revealed by the spirit

This does not concern the gospel

which is written with the presumption of being understandable

John 20:31 —ESV
“but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”

Rom. 10:17 —ESV
“So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.”

2 Tim. 3:15 —ESV
“and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.”

Is. 55:11 —ESV
“so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.”

Rom. 1:16 —ESV
“¶ For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.”



This refers to those who rejecting the gospel as foolishness and are thus perishing

It does not state all regard the gospel as foolishness

If no one could understand the gospel how is this possible

1 Cor. 1:21 —ESV
“For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.”

or this this

John 20:31 —ESV
“but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”

Again, this text never suggests that mankind is born unable to respond to God’s clearly discerned gospel appeal. It only affirms that the mystery of the gospel must be discerned for us, which it has been. As Paul states, “When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit.” Eph. 3:4
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
And ?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Sorry, it doesn't say "deeper things".
But I understand your need to ADD to Scripture to twist it to try to make it fit your false theology.

So you're saying that the gospel is NOT "revealed by the Spirit"?!
SERIOUSLY?!
Lets see

1 Corinthians 2:5–11 (KJV 1900)
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

that looks like deeper things to me

and you have done nothing to prove anything false

For example it is not that which we have through creation

Romans 1:17–25 (KJV 1900)
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.


further I stated nothing all about the gospel not being revealed by the spirit

I did state an inspired apostle could explain the gospel and be believed

you must have been confused
 
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