Nine out of 10 Illinois sheriffs WILL NOT ENFORCE new gun law

[Eightcrackers]

By your logic it could be lawful.

There's no "could be" in law - it either is, or is not, legal.
If you mean to say that it could become lawful, then, yes, of course it could.

But until it does, you are arguing about angels dancing on pinheads.

It would then be killing, not murder.

Correct - if the killing of homeless trespassers became legal, it would no longer be murder.

I missed where it is written it's okay to kill as long as it's inside the mother?

Here is my first condition, again:

1. Abortion at the behest of the pregnant woman

Why is someone who kills a pregnant woman charged with two counts of murder?

Assuming that is the case, it's because the unborn was not killed at the behest of the mother.

 

[Reformedguy]

There's no "could be" in law - it either is, or is not, legal.
If you mean to say that it could become lawful, then, yes, of course it could.

But until it does, you are arguing about angels dancing on pinheads.

Correct - if the killing of homeless trespassers became legal, it would no longer be murder.

Here is my first condition, again:




Assuming that is the case, it's because the unborn was not killed at the behest of the mother.

So if the mother okays it it's a killing, if not it's murder? Where do I find this rule? Go ahead and rip it limb from limb as long as you get the moms okay.

 

[Reformedguy]

You would need to cite the local laws allowing/prohibiting it.

Personally, I care less about whether or not it was murder, than whether or not it was wrong.

If the state said it wasn't murder, then it wouldn't be.

How many times do I have to say it - murder is a legal term.

The law says it is not punishable.

"Legal" is not the same as "moral".

You need a law saying it's not okay to gas people to death?

So the holocaust was legal and was killing, not murder. Using your logic of course

 

[Eightcrackers]

So if the mother okays it it's a killing, if not it's murder?

Depends on the jurisdiction - in some places, an unborn cannot be the victim of a crime.

Where do I find this rule?

Local legislation.

Go ahead and rip it limb from limb as long as you get the moms okay.

Aka, abortion.
Yes.

 

[Eightcrackers]

You need a law saying it's not okay to gas people to death?

Morally OK, or legally OK?

I do not need a law to tell me that the Holocaust was wrong.
Had it been legal - it likely wasn't, but still - I would consider it wrong.

So the holocaust was legal and was killing, not murder.

As I said, Nazi law was unclear, but if it had been legal, it would not have been murder.

The problem is that you call any killing you consider to be immoral, murder.
I don't - I am able to tell the difference.

 

[Reformedguy]

Morally OK, or legally OK?

I do not need a law to tell me that the Holocaust was wrong.
Had it been legal - and it likely wasn't, but still - I would consider it wrong.

As I said, Nazi law was unclear, but if it had been legal, it would not have been murder.

The problem is that you call any killing you consider to be immoral, murder.
I don't - I am able to tell the difference.

There's a difference? The state decides right? What standard of morality would you appeal to?

It was state sanctioned genocide. The state said it was okay. It encouraged it. No one should have been put on trial. The,"I was only following orders", defense should have been sufficient for a aquital no?

 

[Eightcrackers]

There's a difference? The state decides right?

The state defines legal, not right.

What standard of morality would you appeal to?

Mine.
What else would I use?

It was state sanctioned genocide. The state said it was okay. It encouraged it.

If all this is true, it was not murder under Nazi law.

No one should have been put on trial. The,"I was only following orders", defense should have been sufficient for a aquital no?

They were put on trial by other jurisdictions, ones that considered Nazi laws to be immoral.

 

[Reformedguy]

The state defines legal, not right.

Mine.
What else would I use?

If all this is true, it was not murder under Nazi law.

They were put on trial by other jurisdictions, ones that considered Nazi laws to be immoral.

These are questions of morality. The state does define what is right and wrong.

Everyone just gets to make up their own? As long as it's state approved?

So they should have disobeyed the laws of the state?

 

[Eightcrackers]

These are questions of morality. The state does define what is right and wrong.

How can it?
It says abortion is OK, but you think it's immoral...

Everyone just gets to make up their own?

Morality? Yes.
Indeed, nothing can stop them.

As long as it's state approved?

I don't know what you mean.

Laws are written largely in response to the majority's morals - almost everybody would rather not be stolen from, or raped, or killed, so we make those things illegal.

So they should have disobeyed the laws of the state?

If I consider a law to be immoral, I consider disobedience of it to be morally acceptable.

 

[Reformedguy]

How can it?
It says abortion is OK, but you think it's immoral...

Morality? Yes.
Indeed, nothing can stop them.

I don't know what you mean.

Laws are written largely in response to the majority's morals - almost everybody would rather not be stolen from, or raped, or killed, so we make those things illegal.

If I consider a law to be immoral, I consider disobedience of it to be morally acceptable.

It is immoral. It's legalized immorality.

The state can.

Majority rules?

Really? So preventing someone from killing their unborn baby I consider morally acceptable. I get to pick and choose as well.

 

[Eightcrackers]

It is immoral. It's legalized immorality.

Immoral, in your opinion.

As I said, I don't care.
And neither do any other pro-choicers - come back when your opinion is the law.

The state can.

The state can stop people from having moral opinions?

Uhhh... do you live somewhere the police have access to mind control?

Majority rules?

Here is what I said, again:

Laws are written largely in response to the majority's morals

Note the "largely".

Really? So preventing someone from killing their unborn baby I consider morally acceptable.

Good for you.

I get to pick and choose as well.

You get to pick and choose your opinion.
If you try to enact that opinion by force, you will be committing a crime.

 

[Reformedguy]

Immoral, in your opinion.

As I said, I don't care.
And neither do any other pro-choicers - come back when your opinion is the law.

The state can stop people from having moral opinions?

Uhhh... do you live somewhere the police have access to mind control?

Here is what I said, again:

Note the "largely".

Good for you.

You get to pick and choose your opinion.
If you try to enact that opinion by force, you will be committing a crime.

Should we care about yours?

Opinions and acting on your moral principles are two different things

What would be a exception to "largely"?

Really? The state does it all the time. Majority rules remember?

 

[Eightcrackers]

Should we care about yours?

No.
You should care about the law. It just so happens that my opinion is reflected in the law.

Opinions and acting on your moral principles are two different things

Agreed.
What's your point? Acting on moral opinions can be a crime.

What would be a exception to "largely"?

The US Constitution safeguards against mob rule, for example.

Really? The state does it all the time.

The state does it on behalf of the populace.
That's what laws are.

 

[Reformedguy]

No.
You should care about the law. It just so happens that my opinion is reflected in the law.

Agreed.
What's your point? Acting on moral opinions can be a crime.

The US Constitution safeguards against mob rule, for example.

The state does it on behalf of the populace.
That's what laws are.

Some of your opinions are reflected in the law.

So the state is the ultimate arbiter of what is moral and immoral. The way you act that is. Your opinions are irrelevant.

So your precious almighty state always has the best interests of the populace?

 

[Eightcrackers]

So the state is the ultimate arbiter of what is moral and immoral.

No.
The state is the arbiter of what is legal.

If the state said "abortion is not immoral", would that change your mind? Of course not.
The state can't tell you what to think, and morality is in the mind.

The way you act that is. Your opinions are irrelevant.

Your opinions are irrelevant to whether not your actions are legal, and punishable.

So your precious almighty state

And this is right-wing rantery.

 

[Reformedguy]

No.
The state is the arbiter of what is legal.

If the state said "abortion is not immoral", would that change your mind? Of course not.
The state can't tell you what to think, and morality is in the mind.

Your opinions are irrelevant to whether not your actions are legal, and punishable.

And this is right-wing rantery.

Legal questions are questions of morality.

Of course not. None the less the state decides and codified morality right?

My opinions would matter if I were in power though huh

 

[christ_undivided]

No.
The state is the arbiter of what is legal.

If the state said "abortion is not immoral", would that change your mind? Of course not.
The state can't tell you what to think, and morality is in the mind.

Your opinions are irrelevant to whether not your actions are legal, and punishable.

And this is right-wing rantery.

You sound like Pope Francis..... Have you converted?

 

[Eightcrackers]

Legal questions are questions of morality.

No, they aren't.

"Is X moral" is not the same as "is X legal".

Of course not. None the less the state decides and codified morality right?

The state does not decide morality - you just stipulated to that.

The state enforces what society deems to moral.

My opinions would matter if I were in power though huh

Yup.

 

[Eightcrackers]

You sound like Pope Francis..... Have you converted?

Nothing in what I've said, remotely implies the worship of the Catholic god.

 

[Reformedguy]

No, they aren't.

"Is X moral" is not the same as "is X legal".

The state does not decide morality - you just stipulated to that.

The state enforces what society deems to moral.

Yup.

Yes they are.

And yes can and do. See Augustines morality laws as a example.

They do? You said they simply decide what's legal.