No discussion?

John t

Super Member
I was under the impression that this was a discussion board. Where people can discuss things.
You are correct in saying that CARM is a discussion board; however, it is NOT a bickering board. There is a big difference between the two. You can look it up in a dictionaryto be sure.
Telling a person to "shut up" is extremely rude.
I used the word "please" so I was really NOT being rude. :rolleyes:
If you're not interested in what a person has to say, you can always put the person on "ignore." There is no shame in that at all.
I have done so to some posters. Doing to others is a viable option.

Really, do you think that scolding a poster for not posting the "correct half" of a post constitutes "good discussion"?
 

BMS

Well-known member
The same place where "electric lights" are. And "solar panels." And "flowers on the altar." And "Organ music."

There are a lot of things that just weren't understood at all at the time of Jesus.
Jesus claimed He is the Truth the way and the life. I believe that. You cant claim that if when Jesus refers to the creation you dont believe Him.

here are devout, God-fearing Christians
What do you mean by God-fearing Christians. Christians are those who believe in and follow Jesus. Jesus said if we love Him we obey His teaching (John 14-17) and those who don't love Him don't obey His teaching. So dont give the devout Christians with the implication that devout means not believing Jesus is the truth and thinking you know than Jesus.

So clearly, just because it's not in the Bible, doesn't mean it's a sin.
Same sex relations are in the Bible and described as sin.

But, you'll say, it IS in the Bible. Homosexuality is clearly condemned in Scripture.
It would be a lie to say it isnt, and lying is also a sin. For example "for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine" - 1 Timothy 1.
I asked you where LGBT is in the Bible and you cant say because its not there, its a lie.

Of course, there are a lot of things that are condemned in the Old Testament that Christians were told we no longer have to follow. Eating shellfish. Wearing clothing of mixed fibers. Performing various ritual cleansings at various periods of our lives. I'm guessing you agree with Paul that the Old Testament commandments are completed, or "perfected" (those words are the same in Greek), by Christ's salvific act. We don't measure ourselves by the Law, but by Christ.
And you add to your ignorance still because Jesus pronounces food clean (Mark 7:19, Romans 14, Acts 10) and what one wears (Matthew 6)

Where Christ speaks, we are saved. Where Christ is silent, we are silent.
I keep pointing you to what Christ speaks and you don't know, worse than that you deny what He says.

Do you know what Jesus said about homosexuality?
I can explain it full to you here: This is the entirety of what Jesus said about homosexuality:
Yes I do know, I have cited and quoted what He says about His creation of man and woman in faith union. I also challenged you to also believe Jesus and asked you where your lgbt idea fits which you have declined to respond to. So I know. The Holy Spirit, which Christ promised, guides us in truth and reminds us of what Jesus said. (John 14-17) God said "let us make mankind in our image" - Gen 2. That includes Jesus, "in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God." Who do you think God was when He said "let us make mankind in our image" ? 4 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth." - John 1
Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib[h] he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

23 The man said,

“This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called ‘woman,’
for she was taken out of man.”
24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.

So what does Jesus says about homosexuality, He didnt create it, its the opposite of the reason He created a man and a woman as God's image. And His purpose is that a man and a woman unite. That is why the faithful marriage of man and woman is likened to Christ and His church, the bride and bridegroom. Eventually, because at the resurrection there is no marriage, there is neither male nor female because all will be like angels.

So no lgbt in Christ, a man doesnt leave his father ad father and be united with his lgbt friend.

That is why the CofE is apostate, because it wants its members to listen to false teachers so the false teachers can deceive then because otherwise the believers will get persecuted as Jesus also warns.

No such lie as LGBT in God's Kingdom, even if you dont believe Jesus you ought to listen to those in God's Kingdom who have same sex attraction and know it is a sin. That is the power of God, not that any of us are perfect but we believe Jesus.
 

BMS

Well-known member
And this is a good indication of why the CofE will wither on the vine. No -one is bothered by a church that is the same as the world.
 

HillsboroMom

Active member
Jesus claimed He is the Truth the way and the life. I believe that. You cant claim that if when Jesus refers to the creation you dont believe Him.
I've never made any such claim.

What do you mean by God-fearing Christians.
"God-fearing" is kind of an old-fashioned way of referring to Christians. I guess it's an older use of the word "fear." It hasn't always had such a negative connotation in the English language. I apologize if you don't understand my slang from 50+ years ago.


Same sex relations are in the Bible and described as sin.
There are many types of relationships that are described in the Bible.

Some specific same-sex relationships are described as sin. Some same-sex relationships are described as being acceptable. Some opposite-sex relationships are described as being sinful, and some opposite-sex relationships are described as being acceptable that we today consider wrong. For example, the Bible says it is perfectly acceptable to marry multiple women. Most modern Christians consider that wrong. (Not all, but many do.) The Bible says it is perfectly acceptable to have a wife and any number of concubines -- basically sex slaves. I would hope you, and anyone else reading this, would think that is wrong. But in the Bible, it is described as perfectly acceptable.

There are literally hundreds of things that have been labeled "sin" in the Bible that Christians no longer consider sin, and things that are considered acceptable that are absolutely sin. Why do you hold ONE thing up as still being sin if not the other hundreds of things? By what authority do you decide that one thing is sin and another not, if the Bible says they're all sin?

The answer to this question is easy. So easy my son could have answered it when he was 5. At that age, he told me that whenever there was a "Children's Sermon" and the Pastor asked a question, the answer was almost always "Jesus."

Guess what? He was pretty much right. Jesus is almost always the answer.

By what authority can you claim one thing is a sin and not another? Jesus.

Guess what Jesus never condemns......

And, as Jesus said, "Is there no one who can condemn you? Then neither do I."

If it wasn't important enough for Jesus to mention, then I'm not going to condemn it.

Now, if you want to follow the Gospel of Timothy, or the Gospel of Paul, or the Gospel of Moses, then I wish you the best. I will support your right to worship Timothy, or Paul, or Moses, and to adhere to their teaching, as much as you like. You sure could pick worse teachers to follow. They're all excellent choices, and I bear no ill will to you or anyone else who chooses to follow any Biblical figure over Jesus.

And who knows? Maybe Timothy is right. Maybe homosexuality is a sin, and Jesus just forgot to mention it, when he was busy listing all the other things that evangelicals conveniently forget, even though he repeated them over and over and over again but they still pretend that he didn't say them. I suppose that's possible.

But then, if I believed that, I wouldn't be a follower of Jesus.
 

BMS

Well-known member
I've never made any such claim.
So if you believe that God created man and woman in His image and for the purpose that a man shall leave his father and mother and be united with his wife, then what is lgbt you were talking about and where does it fit in? Or did you not make any specific claim to that effect so you have to compromise your position.

"God-fearing" is kind of an old-fashioned way of referring to Christians. I guess it's an older use of the word "fear." It hasn't always had such a negative connotation in the English language. I apologize if you don't understand my slang from 50+ years ago.
Yes I know what it means.
"But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence?" Luke 23
But
"There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love." John 4
As I pointed out to you, Jesus says if we love Him we will obey His teaching and His commands (John 14-17)

This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. -1 John 4

There are many types of relationships that are described in the Bible.
Yes and same sex ones are only ever condemned as sin ie. Gen 19, Judges 19, Lev 18 & 20, 1 Cor 5-7, Romans 1 and 1 Tim 1

Some specific same-sex relationships are described as sin.
No they aren't, nor have you given any examples. Nor can there be since God created man and woman in marriage.
Some same-sex relationships are described as being acceptable.
No they aren't, nor have you given any examples, nor can you because same sex relations are against God's creation purpose.
Some opposite-sex relationships are described as being sinful,
Of course, that is why all sexual relations outside faithful man woman marriage is against God's purpose because the image of God is a man and a woman. As soon as there is domestic abuse the image of God is marred. As soon as there is divorce the image of God is broken, that is why Jesus NT witness addresses it as sin. And same sex coupling is not even in God's image in the first place.
"But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery." - Matthew 5
"2 But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband. " - 1 Cor 7

For example, the Bible says it is perfectly acceptable to marry multiple women.
Obviously as we see Jesus from Christ's NT teaching that isn't God's purpose even though it went on. But you should note that is man and women, not lgbt.

Most modern Christians consider that wrong.
Its what Jesus said, Jesus is the truth and not who we might consider 'modern Christians"

There are literally hundreds of things that have been labeled "sin" in the Bible that Christians no longer consider sin,
Like what?
When you say labelled 'sin' what do you mean? The word the NT uses, gospels and epistles, is hamartia.
"Once more Jesus said to them, “I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come.” - John 8

Why do you hold ONE thing up as still being sin if not the other hundreds of things?
I don't, nor have I said that. That is a question for you to deal with yourself. Why do you hold a sin as not a sin? By what authority do you disagree with Jesus teaching?
"By what authority do you decide that one thing is sin and another not, if the Bible says they're all sin?" I don't nor have I said that. So you agree the Bible says same sex relations are sin then. Gen 19, Judges 19, Lev 18 & 20, 1 Cor 6-7, Romans 1, 1 Tim 1. Good. So where does this lgbt you mention fit in?

Guess what Jesus never condemns......
Who said? "For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.” - Matthew 12.

And, as Jesus said, "Is there no one who can condemn you? Then neither do I."
Its says "No one, sir,” she said. “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.” - John 8. Did you miss the bit about leaving the life of sin? As you see from the teachings of Jesus I have cited and posted, Jesus didn't come to condemn but to save people from sin.

Now, if you want to follow the Gospel of Timothy, or the Gospel of Paul, or the Gospel of Moses, then I wish you the best. I will support your right to worship Timothy, or Paul, or Moses, and to adhere to their teaching, as much as you like. You sure could pick worse teachers to follow. They're all excellent choices, and I bear no ill will to you or anyone else who chooses to follow any Biblical figure over Jesus.
So you dont believe Jesus then, you don't love Him because you cant obey His teaching on His creation of man and woman. The Epistle writers knew Jesus teaching on what His creation of man and woman in faithful union, (1 Cor 6-7, Eph 5, Heb 13 etc) you obviously don't. They believed it, quote it, and expand on it, you obviously don't believe it.

But then, if I believed that, I wouldn't be a follower of Jesus.
Your posts show you aren't, according to Jesus NT teaching.

This is why the cofe 'living in love and faith' is neither living in love or faith, but quite the opposite. Its listening to people who claim to be following Jesus but simply deny Him.

Now I asked you about where the lgbt you mentioned fits in and you have not only not answered, but you have waffled on about who you think Jesus is and how you claim to follow Him.

"He also told them this parable: “Can the blind lead the blind? Will they not both fall into a pit?" - Luke 6
 

John t

Super Member

HillsboroMom said:
I've never made any such claim.

In light of this below, wanna walk that back?

John 14: 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

PS If you do "walk it back" PLEASE do not blame me for your not proof reading what you posted. I also cannot read your mind to understand what you actually wanted to write, OK?
 

John t

Super Member
If it wasn't important enough for Jesus to mention, then I'm not going to condemn it.

Absolutely silly reasoning. If God ever changed his mind about what he condemned in many other parts of the Bible, He'd clearly let us know. As it is, you are taking a negative, meaning no evidence of Him changing His mind as a positive, saying that now, He gives us permission to practice debauchery.

I fiind that position abhorrent, and way out of line with what the Bible clearly teaches. Your reasoning is not God-infused; there is no doubt that your reasoning is inspired by Satan.
 

HillsboroMom

Active member
Earlier, BMS had said:
You cant claim that if when Jesus refers to the creation you dont believe Him.

To which I replied:
I've never made any such claim.

Then this:
So if you believe that God created man and woman in His image and for the purpose that a man shall leave his father and mother and be united with his wife, then what is lgbt you were talking about and where does it fit in? Or did you not make any specific claim to that effect so you have to compromise your position.

You really like putting words in other people's mouths, don't you.

I have never claimed that I don't believe Jesus when he refers to the creation.

You seem to think that Jesus' comment was proscriptive rather than descriptive.

I believe that Jesus was referring to the creation, to the way things were, not (necessarily) the way things should always be from this point forward and forever into eternity.

You believe that he wasn't referring to the creation, but that he was declaring a decree, a commandment for all future generations.

That is certainly a possible interpretation of the verse in question, but I see no clues, no textual evidence to indicate such an interpretation, no contextual requirement for such twisting, no reason for eisegesis whatsoever.

Mind you, I'm not saying that you're not allowed to believe that Jesus meant something more elaborate than what he said. It is possible that Jesus was making a declaration with that statement. As always, you are free to believe that. You're free to believe that Jesus was saying any time a man doesn't leave his parents to get married, he should be hunted down and beaten bloody and left for dead. As long as you don't actually carry out that belief into action, I would support you in having that belief.

I just happen to think in this particular case, Jesus wasn't being all that figurative. I think this might be one of the few cases where we CAN take Jesus' words literally.

But that's just my opinion, and we all have opinions.

I don't expect you to accept my opinions. I don't really care one way or the other.

I am not trying to convince you that my opinions are better than yours.

It's not my job to convince you of anything.

At the end of the day, I don't have to answer to you. I have already answered to the only one I will ever have to answer to, and I am confident in that.
 

BMS

Well-known member
You really like putting words in other people's mouths, don't you.

I have never claimed that I don't believe Jesus when he refers to the creation.
My question didn't put words into your mouth. It was a question of logic about your contradiction.
If as you say "I have never claimed that I don't believe Jesus when he refers to the creation." Does that mean you do believe it or that you haven never claimed that you dont? Obviously the latter since if you believe that God created man and woman in His image and for the purpose that a man shall leave his father and mother and be united with his wife, then what is lgbt you were talking about and where does it fit in? Or did you not make any specific claim to that effect so you have to compromise your position.

I believe that Jesus was referring to the creation, to the way things were, not (necessarily) the way things should always be from this point forward and forever into eternity.
You believe that he wasn't referring to the creation, but that he was declaring a decree, a commandment for all future generations.
That is certainly a possible interpretation of the verse in question, but I see no clues, no textual evidence to indicate such an interpretation, no contextual requirement for such twisting, no reason for eisegesis whatsoever.
Obviously not since we are all still men and women whom Jesus said He created to be in union. Since when are lgbt not men and women? It means you dont believe Jesus or have faith in Him. Jesus said He is the way the truth and the life. Do you think lgbt ideology has replaced that?

I just happen to think in this particular case, Jesus wasn't being all that figurative. I think this might be one of the few cases where we CAN take Jesus' words literally.
So the whole of the Biblical testimony only ever countenances man/woman relations and only ever condemns same sex relations so on what grounds apart from the fact it harms your idol of lgbt ideology do you not take it to mean what it says?
 

BMS

Well-known member
Which is why the churches taken over by lgbt ideology with witther on the vine.
They have nothing to offer that the world needs
 

BMS

Well-known member
Guess what? He was pretty much right. Jesus is almost always the answer.

By what authority can you claim one thing is a sin and not another? Jesus.

Guess what Jesus never condemns......

And, as Jesus said, "Is there no one who can condemn you? Then neither do I."

If it wasn't important enough for Jesus to mention, then I'm not going to condemn it.

Now, if you want to follow the Gospel of Timothy, or the Gospel of Paul, or the Gospel of Moses, then I wish you the best. I will support your right to worship Timothy, or Paul, or Moses, and to adhere to their teaching, as much as you like. You sure could pick worse teachers to follow. They're all excellent choices, and I bear no ill will to you or anyone else who chooses to follow any Biblical figure over Jesus.

And who knows? Maybe Timothy is right. Maybe homosexuality is a sin, and Jesus just forgot to mention it, when he was busy listing all the other things that evangelicals conveniently forget, even though he repeated them over and over and over again but they still pretend that he didn't say them. I suppose that's possible.

But then, if I believed that, I wouldn't be a follower of Jesus.
Here is a typical uninformed view festering in the church, a lie which some in the church has believed from the world.
Firstly when Jesus said "Is there no one who can condemn you? Then neither do I." He also declared "Go now and leave your life of sin.”
So we can say that Jesus condemned the sin of adultery. So the answer to the question
By what authority can you claim one thing is a sin and not another? Jesus.
IS right, Jesus pronounces adultery as sin. Jesus didn't come to condemn, but to save through Him 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

And who knows? Maybe Timothy is right. Maybe homosexuality is a sin, and Jesus just forgot to mention it, when he was busy listing all the other things that evangelicals conveniently forget, even though he repeated them over and over and over again but they still pretend that he didn't say them. I suppose that's possible.
But of course as we know when Jesus is challenged over divorce in Matt 19 and Mark 10, He cites the creation accounts. When they say God said let us make mankind in our image, male and female he made them, the 'us' and 'our' includes Jesus. So we can say that the image of God is a man and a woman because God took woman out of man and mankind is made in the image of God. And it was for this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be united with his wife and the two shall become one flesh.
So if one believes Jesus then one wont ask the question maybe homosexuality is a sin because one knows that God created man and woman in His image to be united.
Of course this is explained further in the Epistles such as 1 Cor 7 and Eph 5, that the union is sacrificial where the husband and wife give themselves body and soul to each other. It is also compared to the relationship between Christ and His church, the bride and bridegroom.

Christians needs to understand that the epistle writers have understood this, because Jesus says if we love Him we will obey His teaching.
 

John t

Super Member
HillsboroMom said:

Guess what? He was pretty much right. Jesus is almost always the answer.

By what authority can you claim one thing is a sin and not another? Jesus.

So if one believes Jesus then one wont ask the question maybe homosexuality is a sin because one knows that God created man and woman in His image to be united.
Of course this is explained further in the Epistles such as 1 Cor 7 and Eph 5, that the union is sacrificial where the husband and wife give themselves body and soul to each other. It is also compared to the relationship between Christ and His church, the bride and bridegroom.

Christians needs to understand that the epistle writers have understood this, because Jesus says if we love Him we will obey His teaching.

Underneath what you both are saying is the issue of lying spirits. In short, they are demons who tell lies so as to fester turmoil within the church. As a pastor in three churches, and as a layman in others they worked their evil, and I also heard the lies being said as they distorted things that I said.

If they say lies to believers, then you can imagine what they say to unbelievers. We, who are saved are also called to holiness, but to the unbelievers, that is torqued into the twin lies of the Evil One:
  1. You have to become "good" before you can be saved.
  2. Jesus (and Christians) hate sinners, especially those in the LBG (etc) group
What those people do are outright abominations; consequently condemned by God. Correctly, Jesus condemns their actions, but not their person. He does that because He created all of us bearing the image, and for anyone to condemn one person is to despise the inherent image of God in that person in particular, and generally, that concept applies to all people.

That is why no one ever can find an instance where Jesus condemns what He uniquely made, a being bearing His very image. But at the same time we must condemn the rightful consequences of those sins, doing so by showing mercy and compassion to those afflicted humans. It is a very fine line upon which to walk, but it is a distinction that we must seek to practice.

In other words, hate the sin, but agape love the ones sinning.
 
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BMS

Well-known member
What John t says is fundamentally correct and the heart of God. But lets not ignore the fact that the image of God is male and female, more precisely a man and a woman.
 
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