No longer a need to argue?

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
I think there may be less reason for atheists like me to take Christians to task then there used to be. What do you think?

One of the reasons I am such a zealot is because I see how Christianity can have a negative impact on my country. I saw Americans basing their ideas for laws on The Bible instead of facts and reasons (e.g. abortion). I saw Christians trying to teach Intelligent Design in the science class. I saw Christians trying to tell students that Evolution was not fact and the Earth was 6,000 years old. And I felt a need to oppose this because it impacted me and my family.

Now I think the nation has changed and this may no longer be the case.

Christianity is in decline and more people are either non-believers or just do not let their faith drive their politics. I do not think there is a huge Christian influence on our laws and classrooms anymore. It is still there but I do not think it is as much of a threat as it used to be.

So I ask myself - why argue about Christianity then?

If people believe in God it is fine by me. People can believe in Jesus or Allah or Shiva - its a free country. And if that belief is not impacting me in any way then why on Earth am I seeking out conflict here on CARM?

I think tis possible that my original need to fight on these boards is moot. The nation changed and the impact of Christianity on my life is now about nil. I wonder if I am flexing this muscle out of habit or, worse, out of malice or some need to stroke my ego. And that's not healthy.

Maybe its time I changed too and just embrace everyone's beliefs - as long as they do not harm anyone else.

Anyhoo, I've been doing some soul searching and wanted to share :)
 

docphin5

Active member
I think there may be less reason for atheists like me to take Christians to task then there used to be. What do you think?

One of the reasons I am such a zealot is because I see how Christianity can have a negative impact on my country. I saw Americans basing their ideas for laws on The Bible instead of facts and reasons (e.g. abortion). I saw Christians trying to teach Intelligent Design in the science class. I saw Christians trying to tell students that Evolution was not fact and the Earth was 6,000 years old. And I felt a need to oppose this because it impacted me and my family.

Now I think the nation has changed and this may no longer be the case.

Christianity is in decline and more people are either non-believers or just do not let their faith drive their politics. I do not think there is a huge Christian influence on our laws and classrooms anymore. It is still there but I do not think it is as much of a threat as it used to be.

So I ask myself - why argue about Christianity then?

If people believe in God it is fine by me. People can believe in Jesus or Allah or Shiva - its a free country. And if that belief is not impacting me in any way then why on Earth am I seeking out conflict here on CARM?

I think tis possible that my original need to fight on these boards is moot. The nation changed and the impact of Christianity on my life is now about nil. I wonder if I am flexing this muscle out of habit or, worse, out of malice or some need to stroke my ego. And that's not healthy.

Maybe its time I changed too and just embrace everyone's beliefs - as long as they do not harm anyone else.

Anyhoo, I've been doing some soul searching and wanted to share :)
Christian orthodoxy may be in decline but there will always be a need among humans for a religious conscience. Even if Christianity goes away over the next thousand years, something else will replace it. People are connected to God, even if they don't know it and if we sever our conscious self from that link, bad things happen to our psyche. Just look what happened to nations in the last century when the government forced a-theism on everyone. Barbarism resulted.
 

Torin

Active member
@Lighthearted Atheist, the reason to argue on CARM is the same now as it has always been, namely recreation. Winning arguments on CARM has little if any relationship to the thoughts and actions of our legislators. If your goal is to influence the legislation that gets passed, then political activism, writing letters to the editor, writing to your state and federal representatives, and that sort of thing would be a better investment of time.
 

Yakuda

Well-known member
I think there may be less reason for atheists like me to take Christians to task then there used to be. What do you think?

One of the reasons I am such a zealot is because I see how Christianity can have a negative impact on my country. I saw Americans basing their ideas for laws on The Bible instead of facts and reasons (e.g. abortion). I saw Christians trying to teach Intelligent Design in the science class. I saw Christians trying to tell students that Evolution was not fact and the Earth was 6,000 years old. And I felt a need to oppose this because it impacted me and my family.

Now I think the nation has changed and this may no longer be the case.

Christianity is in decline and more people are either non-believers or just do not let their faith drive their politics. I do not think there is a huge Christian influence on our laws and classrooms anymore. It is still there but I do not think it is as much of a threat as it used to be.

So I ask myself - why argue about Christianity then?

If people believe in God it is fine by me. People can believe in Jesus or Allah or Shiva - its a free country. And if that belief is not impacting me in any way then why on Earth am I seeking out conflict here on CARM?

I think tis possible that my original need to fight on these boards is moot. The nation changed and the impact of Christianity on my life is now about nil. I wonder if I am flexing this muscle out of habit or, worse, out of malice or some need to stroke my ego. And that's not healthy.

Maybe its time I changed too and just embrace everyone's beliefs - as long as they do not harm anyone else.

Anyhoo, I've been doing some soul searching and wanted to share :)
But you haven't seen how atheism has had just as negative an effect. Its amazing how much like christians atheists behave but bash christians for behaving the way they themselves behave.
 

Algernon

Active member
I think there may be less reason for atheists like me to take Christians to task then there used to be. What do you think?

One of the reasons I am such a zealot is because I see how Christianity can have a negative impact on my country. I saw Americans basing their ideas for laws on The Bible instead of facts and reasons (e.g. abortion). I saw Christians trying to teach Intelligent Design in the science class. I saw Christians trying to tell students that Evolution was not fact and the Earth was 6,000 years old. And I felt a need to oppose this because it impacted me and my family.

Now I think the nation has changed and this may no longer be the case.

Christianity is in decline and more people are either non-believers or just do not let their faith drive their politics. I do not think there is a huge Christian influence on our laws and classrooms anymore. It is still there but I do not think it is as much of a threat as it used to be.

So I ask myself - why argue about Christianity then?

If people believe in God it is fine by me. People can believe in Jesus or Allah or Shiva - its a free country. And if that belief is not impacting me in any way then why on Earth am I seeking out conflict here on CARM?

I think tis possible that my original need to fight on these boards is moot. The nation changed and the impact of Christianity on my life is now about nil. I wonder if I am flexing this muscle out of habit or, worse, out of malice or some need to stroke my ego. And that's not healthy.

Maybe its time I changed too and just embrace everyone's beliefs - as long as they do not harm anyone else.

Anyhoo, I've been doing some soul searching and wanted to share :)
The reasons still exist. Hasn't been my experience that fundamentalist Christians have less impact than before. If anything, they were emboldened by the previous administration, making them more zealous in exerting their conservative influence. Think "religious right". If the nation has "changed", it is for the worse.

Many Christians have a predisposition to self-centered and simplistic views such as thinking that things are true because they believe them. Think evolution, climate change, covid, racism and so on.
 
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Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
Christian orthodoxy may be in decline but there will always be a need among humans for a religious conscience.
Nope. People are replacing superstition, dogma, and religion with secular compassion. There is no need for gods or religion. The entire need for religion is going away - not just Christianity.
Even if Christianity goes away over the next thousand years, something else will replace it. People are connected to God, even if they don't know it and if we sever our conscious self from that link, bad things happen to our psyche. Just look what happened to nations in the last century when the government forced a-theism on everyone. Barbarism resulted.
This is just false.

Your claims cannot change the facts. But I guess you can try. It does not matter much since more and more people are leaving Christianity, Islam, Judaism, and Hinduism in the USA and they are not replacing it with another religion. Its just fact.

But you can continue to believe what you like of course.
 

Algor

Active member
Nope. People are replacing superstition, dogma, and religion with secular compassion. There is no need for gods or religion. The entire need for religion is going away - not just Christianity.

This is just false.

Your claims cannot change the facts. But I guess you can try. It does not matter much since more and more people are leaving Christianity, Islam, Judaism, and Hinduism in the USA and they are not replacing it with another religion. Its just fact.

But you can continue to believe what you like of course.
Note: this is what is called "atheist triumphalism". In general, a premature.... ....extrapolation.
 

Torin

Active member
Note: this is what is called "atheist triumphalism". In general, a premature.... ....extrapolation.
It depends on the country you are talking about.

Reason and evidence have defeated religion in Europe, but only because Europeans do not have a strong cultural attachment to the concept of objective morality and meaning like Americans do.

American and British intellectuals debated the Americans' right to revolt on these grounds. The Americans asserted universal objective morality and rights under Locke's influence, and further asserted that these rights were being violated by the British. In response, the British were more like, "What are you talking about? Morality is what society says it is." There are lots of letters and pamphlets from the revolutionary period attesting to this.

Many Americans, culturally, are unwilling not to believe in objective moral values and principles. I think that unless the connection between atheism and moral relativism is decisively severed, America will remain religious in some form for a very long time.
 

docphin5

Active member
It depends on the country you are talking about.

Reason and evidence have defeated religion in Europe, but only because Europeans do not have a strong cultural attachment to the concept of objective morality and meaning like Americans do.

American and British intellectuals debated the Americans' right to revolt on these grounds. The Americans asserted universal objective morality and rights under Locke's influence, and further asserted that these rights were being violated by the British. In response, the British were more like, "What are you talking about? Morality is what society says it is." There are lots of letters and pamphlets from the revolutionary period attesting to this.

Many Americans, culturally, are unwilling not to believe in objective moral values and principles. I think that unless the connection between atheism and moral relativism is decisively severed, America will remain religious in some form for a very long time.
Good thoughtful post. I am sure there is a lot of truth to it, although it is generalizing how Europeans think and Americans think, despite the fact that what each thinks changes over time.

But even if you are right, in general, that the European attitude for some time, even centuries, has been moving away from an objective morality, it doesn't prove that it will remain so forever, or that a new religion will grow up around it and replace it. I think of Egyptian religion which was around for two thousand years before it was replaced by the Greek religions/culture which was supplanted by the Roman one, which adopted the Christian religion. The Assyrians were around for as long and they were eventually reborn as the Neo-Assyrians who were overthrown by the Babylonians, who then were overthrown by the Persians followed by the Greeks. In all these empires/cultures religion was always present, in fact, even contributory to its eventual success, for Cyrus who supplanted the king of Babylon, was praised as the great liberator of all religions. Therefore, even though empires come and go, the need for religion remains the same. It is part of our collective non conscious self per Jung.

Atheism may appear to be "overcoming" religious thought but it is actually only overcoming the dead, dry religions of orthodoxy. Something else will rise up and be preferable to atheism. Why? Because atheism is at its root nihilism. It denies any objective morality, it finds no intrinsic value in living things. At its root, atheism advocates that whoever holds the power decides the rules, distributes the wealth, and makes its own justice. It is an idea that results in its members eating its own after eating those around it. It cannot inspire the hopes of a civilization although it may dominate its thought for a period of time.

Only religion can promote peace, a religion based on an objective morality (aka God, or whatever term is chosen to represent him) that promotes truth, justice, and good for all. It is what our founding Fathers based our government on and arguably why our nation rose to the top. Of course, it will not stay there because no empire/culture does. Because people change over time. Their attitudes change. What may have made them successful at one time no longer holds true. So even if orthodoxy wanes as atheism grows in the near future, it won't last long because it is an idea that is self defeating. With no objective morality, only raw power is left to decide the rules, and that leads to barbarism.
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
But you haven't seen how atheism has had just as negative an effect. Its amazing how much like christians atheists behave but bash christians for behaving the way they themselves behave.
The EU is superior to the USA in every measurable way except military. They beat us in medical outcomes, medical costs, education outcomes, education costs, poverty, quality of life, access to clean food and water, job security, wealth distribution, and literally every measurable aspect of human life.

And they are mostly atheist. So is Japan. So is Canada.

Even the people that believe in a god in these nations say their religion has little influence on their lives - they have a spiritual side but they do not go to church or make religion a central part of their lives, their voting, and their decisions.

I'm afraid this is just wishful thinking on your part. The evidence is clear that atheism is not associated with any negative consequences and it may very well be associated with many positive ones.
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
The reasons still exist. Hasn't been my experience that fundamentalist Christians have less impact than before. If anything, they were emboldened by the previous administration, making them more zealous in exerting their conservative influence. Think "religious right". If the nation has "changed", it is for the worse.

Many Christians have a predisposition to self-centered and simplistic views such as thinking that things are true because they believe them. Think evolution, climate change, covid, racism and so on.
Really great post - made me think quite a bit. I am in Virginia and we have been trending blue and secular over the last 10 years. I see the impact of Evangelicals diminish year to year. That does not make it true for the nation. Thanks for making that point to me.

I also think Trumpism was a blow to Evangelical power. I think when the Evangelicals supported Trump it showed how their faith has less and less to do with their politics. They went from "Family Values" to enthusiastic support of a man who paid porn stars for extra marital sex. That is quite a fall.

Its hard to support Trump and then claim that Christ like values matter.

I think there are lots of issues there - denial of facts and evidence, ignorance, raging racism, anti-government hate, poverty, desperation - but I no longer think removing religion for the equation will fix it. Its the secular stuff we need to address =- and that is an improvement :)
 

Yakuda

Well-known member
The EU is superior to the USA in every measurable way except military. They beat us in medical outcomes, medical costs, education outcomes, education costs, poverty, quality of life, access to clean food and water, job security, wealth distribution, and literally every measurable aspect of human life.

And they are mostly atheist. So is Japan. So is Canada.

Even the people that believe in a god in these nations say their religion has little influence on their lives - they have a spiritual side but they do not go to church or make religion a central part of their lives, their voting, and their decisions.

I'm afraid this is just wishful thinking on your part. The evidence is clear that atheism is not associated with any negative consequences and it may very well be associated with many positive ones.
Biy you sure do talk a lot but don't say much. Youre a european aren't you?
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
Note: this is what is called "atheist triumphalism". In general, a premature.... ....extrapolation.
We'll see. So far the numbers are really clear. The Western democracies - plus Japan and South Korea - have been moving away from religion heavily over the past few decades - and the rate is increasing. There is no evidence that they are replacing religion with another religion - they are just leaving superstition in the dust.

Christianity is on the rise in China and South America - that's it. Christianity seems to rise where the people are the most desperate and struggling. In the stable democracies we see people losing the need for religion.

But I guess time will tell. This is the first year we saw the number of people who belong to a church drop below 50% - that's amazing. In the next ten years we will see the number of Americans who call themselves Christian drop below 50% as well. Christians will be a minority in this country.

You may be right. But I think this trend is inevitable.
 

Furion

Well-known member
Anyhoo, I've been doing some soul searching and wanted to share :)
A few things. Atheists tell me there is no evidence for souls. So I guess you were blood sifting or something. It's all material.

Nothing you say here has any effect whatsoever, it's an obscure message board.

Nobody cares what you think about america or americans.

In short, just think of this place as where you get your jollies because you have no actual effect.

I am always impressed by atheists who think they are something, that what they say matters.

Like any message board dedicated to Christ, you can only be the cynical critic, that's all.
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
Biy you sure do talk a lot but don't say much. Youre a european aren't you?
Born and raised in the USA. I am a boomer. Never even been to Europe (which is embarrassing).

Are you just lashing out or did you have a point?

Its ok to lash out. I know a lot of boomers and people from smaller towns who just do not like how much the nation is changing. The US is becoming less Christian, less white, and less rural. We have always been a nation of diverse races and cultures but now this diversity is pushing into every small town in the country and some people just do not like change.

So I get the need for ad hominem. No worries.

But you cannot stop it. Best to embrace the change and adapt to the younger generations. Like our parents had to do in the 60s and 70s as we got rid of Jim Crow, ended their ridiculous war in Viet Nam, and championed Civil Rights.

Anyhoo, Christianity is leaving American life - you cannot stop that. And if God is real he does not seem to want to stop it either.

Its our turn to let the nation change and for us to change with it :)
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
A few things. Atheists tell me there is no evidence for souls. So I guess you were blood sifting or something. It's all material.
lol - its just a turn of phrase.
Nothing you say here has any effect whatsoever, it's an obscure message board.
That is probably true.
Nobody cares what you think about america or americans.
That is probably true too.
In short, just think of this place as where you get your jollies because you have no actual effect.

I am always impressed by atheists who think they are something, that what they say matters.

Like any message board dedicated to Christ, you can only be the cynical critic, that's all.
Great point. Thank you.
 

Yakuda

Well-known member
Born and raised in the USA. I am a boomer. Never even been to Europe (which is embarrassing).

Are you just lashing out or did you have a point?

Its ok to lash out. I know a lot of boomers and people from smaller towns who just do not like how much the nation is changing. The US is becoming less Christian, less white, and less rural. We have always been a nation of diverse races and cultures but now this diversity is pushing into every small town in the country and some people just do not like change.

So I get the need for ad hominem. No worries.

But you cannot stop it. Best to embrace the change and adapt to the younger generations. Like our parents had to do in the 60s and 70s as we got rid of Jim Crow, ended their ridiculous war in Viet Nam, and championed Civil Rights.

Anyhoo, Christianity is leaving American life - you cannot stop that. And if God is real he does not seem to want to stop it either.

Its our turn to let the nation change and for us to change with it :)
No need to lash out you should go to Europe if it is so much better. No euo
Born and raised in the USA. I am a boomer. Never even been to Europe (which is embarrassing).

Are you just lashing out or did you have a point?

Its ok to lash out. I know a lot of boomers and people from smaller towns who just do not like how much the nation is changing. The US is becoming less Christian, less white, and less rural. We have always been a nation of diverse races and cultures but now this diversity is pushing into every small town in the country and some people just do not like change.

So I get the need for ad hominem. No worries.

But you cannot stop it. Best to embrace the change and adapt to the younger generations. Like our parents had to do in the 60s and 70s as we got rid of Jim Crow, ended their ridiculous war in Viet Nam, and championed Civil Rights.

Anyhoo, Christianity is leaving American life - you cannot stop that. And if God is real he does not seem to want to stop it either.

Its our turn to let the nation change and for us to change with it :)
No need to lash out. If it's so good then go to european. Not one European country has the challenges that face the US. Its imbecilic to compare the 2.
 

Furion

Well-known member
lol - its just a turn of phrase.

That is probably true.

That is probably true too.

Great point. Thank you.
When does a turn of the phrase become not being able to deal with your own beliefs?

I think atheists betray what the believe about the human soul.

But it's ok, it is your blood sifting.
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
No need to lash out you should go to Europe if it is so much better. No euo

No need to lash out. If it's so good then go to european. Not one European country has the challenges that face the US. Its imbecilic to compare the 2.
You think it is imbecilic to compare ourselves to other nations and see if we can learn ways to make life better?

OK.

And "America love it or leave it" is just about the worst argument in the history of arguments. So I'll keep looking at other nations to see if they have ideas that can make life better here.
 
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