No longer a need to argue?

Yakuda

Well-known member
You think it is imbecilic to compare ourselves to other nations and see if we can learn ways to make life better?

OK.

And "America love it or leave it" is just about the worst argument in the history of arguments. So I'll keep looking at other nations to see if they have ideas that can make life better here.
Yes i do as they aren't the same. Its like asking if apples are better than oranges. That's an imbecilic comparison.

Yes you should keep watching what the electrician is doing even though you need a plumber. Good job skippy.
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
Yes i do as they aren't the same. Its like asking if apples are better than oranges. That's an imbecilic comparison.
OK. We'll just compare America to nothing so we can keep thinking we are the best country in the world - its a deal!
Yes you should keep watching what the electrician is doing even though you need a plumber. Good job skippy.
Um. OK I guess? Weird.

The US is going to become more like the EU though. Might want to brace yourself :)
 

Yakuda

Well-known member
OK. We'll just compare America to nothing so we can keep thinking we are the best country in the world - its a deal!

Um. OK I guess? Weird.

The US is going to become more like the EU though. Might want to brace yourself :)
Where did I say we were the best country in the world. This is what I mean you're a nonsensical person.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
I think there may be less reason for atheists like me to take Christians to task then there used to be. What do you think?

One of the reasons I am such a zealot is because I see how Christianity can have a negative impact on my country. I saw Americans basing their ideas for laws on The Bible instead of facts and reasons (e.g. abortion). I saw Christians trying to teach Intelligent Design in the science class. I saw Christians trying to tell students that Evolution was not fact and the Earth was 6,000 years old. And I felt a need to oppose this because it impacted me and my family.
Following Jesus never was an argument.
What man's components of Christianity have "done" throughout the past 1988 years has impacted the entire planet, one way or the other.
We now have the past 1500 years to show why many of us don't talk about "Christianity." We focus on Jesus.
Earlier today I saw a picture a friend posted on facebook, and it was of a guy named Nabeel Qureshi, and his book--- Looking for Allah, finding Jesus.
He states--- I read the life of Mohammed, and turned away from islam.
I read the life of Jesus, and followed him.

1618526611102.png

Last night I started listening to a bible study on you tube. I didn't realize it until this morning, but it left me with the sense of not being sure about whom I believed, and was focusing more on what I needed to be doing. The point being--- he just focused on catch phrases, without any bible verses to give me a point where I needed to focus.
Ironically, the teacher I was listening to is a well-renown teacher.

Biblical Christianity is about what Jesus did for us. His life, death, and resurrection. We read in 2 Peter 1, vs 3 that God, through Jesus has provided us everything we need to live a life that honors God. We can either believe that, and take the time to read, so we can know, or we get stuck in a pocket of "man-made christianity" which isn't helpful, or even beneficial to us.
As Jesus quoted Isaiah---
“Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths​
And honor Me with their lips,​
But have removed their hearts far from Me,​
And their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men,​

People can talk all day long, focusing on manmade rules/regulations, fancy-religious sounding ideas, but completely miss what Jesus is calling us to. This really is why I left church in 1971-2. It was empty. Useless, philosophical drivel designed to make people feel good, but leaves them without the tools God has provided us to walk in a manner that's actually worthy of Him.

So..... do humans misconstrue the bible, and end up making a mess of things? Sure. Absolutely.
Does that mean that God is a mess maker? Nope. It means that people are mess-makers.


Now I think the nation has changed and this may no longer be the case.

Christianity is in decline and more people are either non-believers or just do not let their faith drive their politics. I do not think there is a huge Christian influence on our laws and classrooms anymore. It is still there but I do not think it is as much of a threat as it used to be.

So I ask myself - why argue about Christianity then?
Why indeed?
Why not focus on Jesus?
This is who the original form of Christianity is about. He's the whole reason the bible was written--- From Psalm 40, and quoted again in the new testament letter to the Hebrews.

In the volume of the book it is written of me. I have come to do your will O God.


If people believe in God it is fine by me. People can believe in Jesus or Allah or Shiva - its a free country. And if that belief is not impacting me in any way then why on Earth am I seeking out conflict here on CARM?
Why indeed?
So, what happens when someone who is a muslim, faithful to the Quran comes along, and upon pulling out a sword says--- convert or die?
And if you survive that, what about the various forms of hinduism, which come along, and their devotees pull the same thing--- covert or die.
then, what do you do when someone who is a follower of Jesus, and actually treats you as Jesus said?
Who do you pick up your conflict against?

I think tis possible that my original need to fight on these boards is moot. The nation changed and the impact of Christianity on my life is now about nil. I wonder if I am flexing this muscle out of habit or, worse, out of malice or some need to stroke my ego. And that's not healthy.

Maybe its time I changed too and just embrace everyone's beliefs - as long as they do not harm anyone else.

Anyhoo, I've been doing some soul searching and wanted to share :)
Well, come follow Jesus, and then you can find out the truth.
That's all any of us have asked of you.
 
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Furion

Well-known member
Okie dokie. When you can prove anything you say is true let me know. I'll be watching cartoons on the couch.
I don't mind you can't explain yourself coherently, and lash out like a child. You are ineffective in your argumentativeness.

I will do some atheistic non-existent soul searching for you, which turns out to be exclaiming your opinions that much louder.
 

Furion

Well-known member
You think it is imbecilic to compare ourselves to other nations and see if we can learn ways to make life better?

OK.

And "America love it or leave it" is just about the worst argument in the history of arguments. So I'll keep looking at other nations to see if they have ideas that can make life better here.
I think your dishonest arguments make atheism look bad.

The fundamentalist atheists here can't help themselves.

It could be that atheists are white knights of truth, teaching the errant and idiotic christians the truth!

Or it could just be your hubris. No one is listening to you, passive aggressive man.
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
Following Jesus never was an argument.
What man's components of Christianity have "done" throughout the past 1988 years has impacted the entire planet, one way or the other.
We now have the past 1500 years to show why many of us don't talk about "Christianity." We focus on Jesus.
Earlier today I saw a picture a friend posted on facebook, and it was of a guy named Nabeel Qureshi, and his book--- Looking for Allah, finding Jesus.
He states--- I read the life of Mohammed, and turned away from islam.
I read the life of Jesus, and followed him.

View attachment 1109

Last night I started listening to a bible study on you tube. I didn't realize it until this morning, but it left me with the sense of not being sure about whom I believed, and was focusing more on what I needed to be doing. The point being--- he just focused on catch phrases, without any bible verses to give me a point where I needed to focus.
Ironically, the teacher I was listening to is a well-renown teacher.

Biblical Christianity is about what Jesus did for us. His life, death, and resurrection. We read in 2 Peter 1, vs 3 that God, through Jesus has provided us everything we need to live a life that honors God. We can either believe that, and take the time to read, so we can know, or we get stuck in a pocket of "man-made christianity" which isn't helpful, or even beneficial to us.
As Jesus quoted Isaiah---
“Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths​
And honor Me with their lips,​
But have removed their hearts far from Me,​
And their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men,​

People can talk all day long, focusing on manmade rules/regulations, fancy-religious sounding ideas, but completely miss what Jesus is calling us to. This really is why I left church in 1971-2. It was empty. Useless, philosophical drivel designed to make people feel good, but leaves them without the tools God has provided us to walk in a manner that's actually worthy of Him.

So..... do humans misconstrue the bible, and end up making a mess of things? Sure. Absolutely.
Does that mean that God is a mess maker? Nope. It means that people are mess-makers.



Why indeed?
Why not focus on Jesus?
This is who the original form of Christianity is about. He's the whole reason the bible was written--- From Psalm 40, and quoted again in the new testament letter to the Hebrews.

In the volume of the book it is written of me. I have come to do your will O God.



Why indeed?
So, what happens when someone who is a muslim, faithful to the Quran comes along, and upon pulling out a sword says--- convert or die?
And if you survive that, what about the various forms of hinduism, which come along, and their devotees pull the same thing--- covert or die.
then, what do you do when someone who is a follower of Jesus, and actually treats you as Jesus said?
Who do you pick up your conflict against?


Well, come follow Jesus, and then you can find out the truth.
That's all any of us have asked of you.
Just FYI this is not working. You keep telling people to just listen to you and not look for evidence or proof. That is making people leave Christianity in droves. Your faith will be a minority in the next few years.

Shouting Bible verses is not changing that. Maybe you should try to listen to others and better prove your case.

Or not. Either way most people in the US will be secular with no need for God before 2025.
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
I don't mind you can't explain yourself coherently, and lash out like a child. You are ineffective in your argumentativeness.

I will do some atheistic non-existent soul searching for you, which turns out to be exclaiming your opinions that much louder.
Okie dokie. Have a great weekend. Its supposed to be nice here on the East coast. I may go for a hike with the kids.

Make sure you get out and have some fun :)
 

Authentic Nouveau

Well-known member
Note: this is what is called "atheist triumphalism". In general, a premature.... ....extrapolation.

I saw that in a space museum where Russian atheists used their space program and returned to tell people they didn't see God out there.
The first Russian in space was an actual Christian and he was not quoted. His kruschev lied about what he said like a troo atheist.
 

Furion

Well-known member
Okie dokie. Have a great weekend. Its supposed to be nice here on the East coast. I may go for a hike with the kids.

Make sure you get out and have some fun :)
Interesting.

When someone pushes back a little, you resort to okie dokie, homespun "I am a harmless little atheist" schtick.

And yet you can't admit when confronted about your Type A aggressive atheism.

You can't even tell the truth to yourself.
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
The 100 million plus people killed in the name of atheism in the past 100 years ............for what reason?

Bible says false accusers.
This never happened. And Christians killed millions of Jews and Muslims just because they did not worship the right god. You are in a glass house spraying rocks all over the place.

Best watch that broken glass.
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
Interesting.

When someone pushes back a little, you resort to okie dokie, homespun "I am a harmless little atheist" schtick.

And yet you can't admit when confronted about your Type A aggressive atheism.

You can't even tell the truth to yourself.
I have no idea what you are talking about here. I do not even know what Type A Aggressive Atheism is. I like to debate on this forum. I never debate religion in real life - I think it is rude to call out someone's beliefs for no good reason. So when my Hindu friends tell me Ganesha helped with the Vaccine I just smile.

However, this is a forum where Christians willingly come to answer hard questions from atheists. It seems silly to cry about hard questions from atheists

If I am so bad then just ignore me. Or admit that you cannot answer my questions. Or admit that I hit a nerve and it bothers you that you cannot explain why God is love as he gives kids cancer. or post on Christian sites where no one asks hard questions. You do you.

But whining about how aggressive I am during a debate is just silliness.
 

5wize

Well-known member
It depends on the country you are talking about.

Reason and evidence have defeated religion in Europe, but only because Europeans do not have a strong cultural attachment to the concept of objective morality and meaning like Americans do.

American and British intellectuals debated the Americans' right to revolt on these grounds. The Americans asserted universal objective morality and rights under Locke's influence, and further asserted that these rights were being violated by the British. In response, the British were more like, "What are you talking about? Morality is what society says it is." There are lots of letters and pamphlets from the revolutionary period attesting to this.

Many Americans, culturally, are unwilling not to believe in objective moral values and principles. I think that unless the connection between atheism and moral relativism is decisively severed, America will remain religious in some form for a very long time.
I think there is an evolving place in America for moral universalism absent the supernatural ultimate objective moral basis - an atheism that adheres to common human moral objectives.
 

5wize

Well-known member
I think there may be less reason for atheists like me to take Christians to task then there used to be. What do you think?

One of the reasons I am such a zealot is because I see how Christianity can have a negative impact on my country. I saw Americans basing their ideas for laws on The Bible instead of facts and reasons (e.g. abortion). I saw Christians trying to teach Intelligent Design in the science class. I saw Christians trying to tell students that Evolution was not fact and the Earth was 6,000 years old. And I felt a need to oppose this because it impacted me and my family.

Now I think the nation has changed and this may no longer be the case.

Christianity is in decline and more people are either non-believers or just do not let their faith drive their politics. I do not think there is a huge Christian influence on our laws and classrooms anymore. It is still there but I do not think it is as much of a threat as it used to be.

So I ask myself - why argue about Christianity then?

If people believe in God it is fine by me. People can believe in Jesus or Allah or Shiva - its a free country. And if that belief is not impacting me in any way then why on Earth am I seeking out conflict here on CARM?

I think tis possible that my original need to fight on these boards is moot. The nation changed and the impact of Christianity on my life is now about nil. I wonder if I am flexing this muscle out of habit or, worse, out of malice or some need to stroke my ego. And that's not healthy.

Maybe its time I changed too and just embrace everyone's beliefs - as long as they do not harm anyone else.

Anyhoo, I've been doing some soul searching and wanted to share :)
There is still a reason as a result of what evangelical Christians believe about the rest of the world and the warrant they feel to go out and proclaim it. If Christianity were a closed system religion where if only its adherents were punished for a lack of propitiation to a belief system they took on personally, then you are right. No harm, no foul. But that's not what they believe.

They believe you are hell bound for eternal suffering not so much as a result of what you believe (they didn't care what you thought before they became Christian), but as a result of the belief they took on to themselves. Their personal decision spills onto you and yours. It is not a closed system belief and as long as they can get in ear shot of those that I love and preach fear and eternal punishment, I will meet their message as damaging to the social fabric.
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
There is still a reason as a result of what evangelical Christians believe about the rest of the world and the warrant they feel to go out and proclaim it. If Christianity were a closed system religion where if only its adherents were punished for a lack of propitiation to a belief system they took on personally, then you are right. No harm, no foul. But that's not what they believe.

They believe you are hell bound for eternal suffering not so much as a result of what you believe (they didn't care what you thought before they became Christian), but as a result of the belief they took on to themselves. Their personal decision spills onto you and yours. It is not a closed system belief and as long as they can get in ear shot of those that I love and preach fear and eternal punishment, I will meet their message as damaging to the social fabric.
Great point. I just do not think Christianity is any more damaging than any other flawed ideology at this point. I think belief in Trickle Down Economics and belief in a rigged 2020 election and denying climate change are probably more damaging to America than Christianity is at this point. I am not sure I believed that 10 years ago.

But I agree that we should fight any belief that tells you that you do not need facts or evidence to believe.
 

5wize

Well-known member
Great point. I just do not think Christianity is any more damaging than any other flawed ideology at this point. I think belief in Trickle Down Economics and belief in a rigged 2020 election and denying climate change are probably more damaging to America than Christianity is at this point. I am not sure I believed that 10 years ago.

But I agree that we should fight any belief that tells you that you do not need facts or evidence to believe.
Let's take the religious angle out of it then. If you knew there was some person in your neighborhood that was out convincing the children in your neighborhood, including your own, that they would die if they didn't stop and wave their arms around their heads for 2 minutes when ever he came around, would you allow that to continue?

It's about more than evidence, facts, and belief... it's about psychological affect.
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
Let's take the religious angle out of it then. If you knew there was some person in your neighborhood that was out convincing the children in your neighborhood, including your own, that they would die if they didn't stop and wave their arms around their heads for 2 minutes when ever he came around, would you allow that to continue?
I would encourage my kids to ask the man to prove it. And if he could not prove it I would tell my kids to tell the man, "I see no reason to believe what you are saying is true."

That is a great life lesson. The world is full of con men, hucksters, and loonies. The sooner you realize that belief without a need for evidence makes you vulnerable to every crackpot scam artist the better.
It's about more than evidence, facts, and belief... it's about psychological affect.
I agree. But we can manage both. We can teach kids to demand evidence and counsel them psychologically. They are not mutually exclusive :)
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Just FYI this is not working. You keep telling people to just listen to you and not look for evidence or proof.
Well, you're obviously not paying attention.
So, if this isn't working, then pay attention.
I never said to "just listen to me, and not look for evidence."
I've repeatedly stated, hundreds of times now,
Read.
Learn
Do what Jesus said.
God will give you all the evidence that is necessary.



That is making people leave Christianity in droves. Your faith will be a minority in the next few years.
If keeping the teachings of Jesus is making people leave christianity in droves, then they were never followers of Jesus in the first place.

This is plainly stated in the gospels.

Shouting Bible verses is not changing that. Maybe you should try to listen to others and better prove your case.
Well, if you hear shouting, from written conversation, then you should see a doctor. I'm not shouting. I'm writing words on a written medium.

Or not. Either way most people in the US will be secular with no need for God before 2025.
You sound like you're scared that you'll actually enjoy yourself come eternity.
 
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