No one who does good , not even one

Johnnybgood

Well-known member
In Romans 3 it says this.

No one does good not even one

In Ecclesiastes 7 it says no one is just on earth and does good

In Psalm 14 and 53 it says there is no one who does good, not even one

How can any person say total depravity is not true after reading these passages and see their own sinfulness before our Holy and Righteous and Just God ?

I have a difficult time understanding how any one who says they are a Christian and believes the Bible can disagree with total depravity. They must not see themselves as sinners and think they are somehow good.
 

SovereignGrace

Well-known member
In Romans 3 it says this.

No one does good not even one

In Ecclesiastes 7 it says no one is just on earth and does good

In Psalm 14 and 53 it says there is no one who does good, not even one

How can any person say total depravity is not true after reading these passages and see their own sinfulness before our Holy and Righteous and Just God ?

I have a difficult time understanding how any one who says they are a Christian and believes the Bible can disagree with total depravity. They must not see themselves as sinners and think they are somehow good.
The problem stems from their way of understanding total depravity. It doesn’t teach that man is as bad as he can possibly be(but Hitler, Bin Laden, Hussein, Pol Pot, Vlad Dracula, &c. seem to have been about as bad as one can get), but that every bit of man fell in the Garden, including his will. That is where they get their dander up. If total depravity didn’t teach that even the will was affected, they wouldn’t offer any resistance.
 

civic

Well-known member
In Romans 3 it says this.

No one does good not even one

In Ecclesiastes 7 it says no one is just on earth and does good

In Psalm 14 and 53 it says there is no one who does good, not even one

How can any person say total depravity is not true after reading these passages and see their own sinfulness before our Holy and Righteous and Just God ?

I have a difficult time understanding how any one who says they are a Christian and believes the Bible can disagree with total depravity. They must not see themselves as sinners and think they are somehow good.
Amen it is irrefutable and James Arminius also taught mans depravity that there is nothing good in man apart from God doing a work in man.

Here are 16 reasons scripture says man is utterly ,totally, completely, entirely depraved.

1)Man by nature is deceitful (Jeremiah 17:9)

2)Man is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)

3)Man loves darkness (John 3:19)

4)Man does not seek for God (Romans 3:10-12)

5)Man is ungodly (Romans 5:6)

6)Man is dead in his sins (Ephesians 2:1)

7)Man by nature is a child of wrath (Ephesians 2:3)

8)Man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:14)

9)Man is a slave of sin (Romans 6:16-20)

10)Man is sinful at birth, sinful from the time of conception (Psalms 51:5)

11)Man is like a filthy rag his garments stained by sin and is unrighteous (Isaiah 64:6)

12)Man is hostile towards God and cannot submit to Him or His law (Romans 8:7)

13)Man cannot do good and is completely incapable of such an act (Romans 3:12)

14)Man is not born with faith so everything is done in sin (Romans 14:23)

15)Man has not one single thing that is good in him (Romans 7:18)

16)Man is born condemned (John 3:18)

hope this helps !!!
 

civic

Well-known member
Anyone who is not a calvinist on this forum and disagrees cannot call themselves an Arminian either since Arminius teaches TD below and NO FREE WILL- it was DESTROYED at the fall. He said man has no free will after the fall: the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost.

Jacob Arminius writes,

“IN the state of Primitive Innocence, man had a mind endued with a clear understanding of heavenly light and truth concerning God, and his works and will, as far as was sufficient for the salvation of man and the glory of God; he had a heart imbued with ‘righteousness and true holiness,’ and with a true and saving love of good; and powers abundantly qualified or furnished perfectly to fulfill the law which God had imposed on him. This admits easily of proof, from the description of the image of God, after which man is said to have been created, (Gen 1:26-27) from the law divinely imposed on him, which had a promise and a threat appended to it, (Gen 2:17) and lastly from the analogous restoration of the same image in Christ Jesus. (Eph 4:24, Col 3:10)

But man was not so confirmed in this state of innocence, as to be incapable of being moved, by the representation presented to him of some good, (whether it was of an inferior kind and relating to this animal life, or of a superior-kind and relating to spiritual life) inordinately and unlawfully to look upon it and to desire it, and of his own spontaneous as well as free motion, and through a preposterous desire for that good, to decline from the obedience which had been prescribed to him. Nay, having turned away from the light of his own mind and his chief good, which is God, or, at least, having turned towards that chief good not in the manner in which he ought to have done, and besides having turned in mind and heart towards an inferior good, he transgressed the command given to him for life. By this foul deed, he precipitated himself from that noble and elevated condition into a state of the deepest infelicity, which is under the dominion of sin. For ‘to whom any one yields himself a servant to obey,’ (Rom 6:16) and ‘of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage,’ and is his regularly assigned slave. (2 Pet 2:19)


In this state, the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace. For Christ has said, ‘Without me ye can do nothing.’ St. Augustine, after having diligently meditated upon each word in this passage, speaks thus: ‘Christ does not say, without me ye can do but Little; neither does He say, without me ye can do any Arduous Thing, nor without me ye can do it with difficulty. But he says, without me ye can do Nothing! Nor does he say, without me ye cannot complete any thing; but without me ye can do Nothing.’ That this may be made more manifestly to appear, we will separately consider the mind, the affections or will, and the capability, as contra-distinguished from them, as well as the life itself of an unregenerate man.”


Arminius further writes,

“THIS is my opinion concerning the free-will of man: In his primitive condition as he came out of the hands of his creator, man was endowed with such a portion of knowledge, holiness and power, as enabled him to understand, esteem, consider, will, and to perform the true good, according to the commandment delivered to him. Yet none of these acts could he do, except through the assistance of Divine Grace. But in his lapsed and sinful state, man is not capable, of and by himself, either to think, to will, or to do that which is really good; but it is necessary for him to be regenerated and renewed in his intellect, affections or will, and in all his powers, by God in Christ through the Holy Spirit, that he may be qualified rightly to understand, esteem, consider, will, and perform whatever is truly good. When he is made a partaker of this regeneration or renovation, I consider that, since he is delivered from sin, he is capable of thinking, willing and doing that which is good, but yet not without the continued aids of Divine Grace.” https://www.ccel.org/ccel/arminius/works1.v.xii.html

hope this helps !!!
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
How can any person say total depravity is not true after reading these passages and see their own sinfulness before our Holy and Righteous and Just God ?

I have a difficult time understanding how any one who says they are a Christian and believes the Bible can disagree with total depravity. They must not see themselves as sinners and think they are somehow good.

It is rejected, because it comes by revelation, we instinctively feel the offense the doctrine brings, our depraved nature is naturally attracted to any form of self-righteousness, and it's an area of spiritual warfare.

God's really taken me to some deep places to see the depravity of my own heart, but even though I would have given lip service to the doctrine, I was still shocked by what I eventually saw inside my own heart.

The best thing to do when you see someone caught up in a false doctrine is to pray for them. You just can't argue someone out of a belief with a supernatural origin, it's like a bringing a knife to a gun fight.

I hope something I said helps you.

God bless.
 

Johnnybgood

Well-known member
It is rejected, because it comes by revelation, we instinctively feel the offense the doctrine brings, our depraved nature is naturally attracted to any form of self-righteousness, and it's an area of spiritual warfare.

God's really taken me to some deep places to see the depravity of my own heart, but even though I would have given lip service to the doctrine, I was still shocked by what I eventually saw inside my own heart.

The best thing to do when you see someone caught up in a false doctrine is to pray for them. You just can't argue someone out of a belief with a supernatural origin, it's like a bringing a knife to a gun fight.

I hope something I said helps you.

God bless.
Thank you for you insightful comments @SovereignGrace @praise_yeshua and @civic
 
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praise_yeshua

Well-known member
In Romans 3 it says this.

No one does good not even one

In Ecclesiastes 7 it says no one is just on earth and does good

In Psalm 14 and 53 it says there is no one who does good, not even one

How can any person say total depravity is not true after reading these passages and see their own sinfulness before our Holy and Righteous and Just God ?

I have a difficult time understanding how any one who says they are a Christian and believes the Bible can disagree with total depravity. They must not see themselves as sinners and think they are somehow good.

The only issue I have with TD is how it deals with the Gospel message.

The Gospel is the bridge between the heavenly and earthly. It is heavenly message preached by natural men to their fellow "natural" men in natural ways. Even though we are sinners and can not help ourselves, we can respond to what God has given to call all men to His darling Son.

I usually explain my point with the illustration of drowning man calling out for help. He can't help himself. He must rely upon another to help him. Even nature teaches the drowning man that water kills. Even natures teaches man that death is inevitable. Even nature points to a Creator. The message of the Gospel just tells us WHO..... we need. The natural man can see Jesus in others. He can see how others trust, rely, and LOVE Jesus Christ. The natural man can express the smallest of faith in the message of the Gospel. To those who respond, God gives more light. There is no doubt an Spiritual enlightenment that must take place. An intimacy that initiated by God Himself toward man. However, that intimacy does not come until faith is expressed. Therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith.
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
It is rejected, because it comes by revelation, we instinctively feel the offense the doctrine brings, our depraved nature is naturally attracted to any form of self-righteousness, and it's an area of spiritual warfare.

God's really taken me to some deep places to see the depravity of my own heart, but even though I would have given lip service to the doctrine, I was still shocked by what I eventually saw inside my own heart.

The best thing to do when you see someone caught up in a false doctrine is to pray for them. You just can't argue someone out of a belief with a supernatural origin, it's like a bringing a knife to a gun fight.

I hope something I said helps you.

God bless.

That is what God has us for....

We cast down imagination. We stand against everything that exalts itself above the knowledge of God. WE..... lay hold and capture every thought to the obedience of Christ.

Paul told his followers that he had begotten them through the Gospel. I am one of his converts.

1Co 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

Though Paul is dead.... he still speaks...
 

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
...In Romans 3 it says this.
I have a difficult time understanding how any one who says they are a Christian and believes the Bible can disagree with total depravity. They must not see themselves as sinners and think they are somehow good.
The problem is that Total Depravity in TULIP includes total inability to respond to God's witnesses.
 

civic

Well-known member
The problem is that Total Depravity in TULIP includes total inability to respond to God's witnesses.
of course no one has any ability in themselves apart from Gods grace hence TD is true. Read what Arminius wrote about your supposed free will in my post above.

did you have ability to come to Christ apart from Gods grace ? yes or no
 

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
... did you have ability to come to Christ apart from Gods grace ? yes or no
God's grace: creation testifying, law written the the hearts, conscience bearing witness, Holy Spirit reproving, Christ's death, burial, resurrection, the gospel the power of God unto salvation to all who believe.
God's grace gives us the ability to choose life, or to hold the truth in unrighteousness.
 

civic

Well-known member
God's grace: creation testifying, law written the the hearts, conscience bearing witness, Holy Spirit reproving, Christ's death, burial, resurrection, the gospel the power of God unto salvation to all who believe.
God's grace gives us the ability to choose life, or to hold the truth in unrighteousness.
I see a yes or no answer is to complicated for you so the result is obfuscating.

So lets try this one more time.

Did you have ability to come to Christ apart from Gods grace ? yes or no
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
of course no one has any ability in themselves apart from Gods grace hence TD is true. Read what Arminius wrote about your supposed free will in my post above.

did you have ability to come to Christ apart from Gods grace ? yes or no

I know we haven't engaged much on the subject of freewill. I disagree with what Calvinists and Arminians both see in freewill. In your quote of there isn't any sense of dealing with the imaginations of mankind.

This is where freewill is expressed in all human beings. Though man is powerless to help himself, he can imagine to "be" most anything. In the mind is the where the battle plays out in freewill.
 

civic

Well-known member
I know we haven't engaged much on the subject of freewill. I disagree with what Calvinists and Arminians both see in freewill. In your quote of there isn't any sense of dealing with the imaginations of mankind.

This is where freewill is expressed in all human beings. Though man is powerless to help himself, he can imagine to "be" most anything. In the mind is the where the battle plays out in freewill.
But you would agree that apart from Gods grace towards you that you on your own would not choose to come to Christ correct ?

In other words you did not initiate seeking God, it was God drawing you to Him via conviction of the Holy Spirit as Jesus said below:

John 16:8
And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment:
 

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
I see a yes or no answer is to complicated for you so the result is obfuscating.

So lets try this one more time.

Did you have ability to come to Christ apart from Gods grace ? yes or no
God's grace: creation testifying, law written the the hearts, conscience bearing witness, Holy Spirit reproving, Christ's death, burial, resurrection, the gospel the power of God unto salvation to all who believe.
Yes; God's grace gives us the ability to choose life, or to hold the truth in unrighteousness.
 

civic

Well-known member
God's grace: creation testifying, law written the the hearts, conscience bearing witness, Holy Spirit reproving, Christ's death, burial, resurrection, the gospel the power of God unto salvation to all who believe.
Yes; God's grace gives us the ability to choose life, or to hold the truth in unrighteousness.
ok mr rabbit enjoy your rabbit holes- I'm not going down them. You are sooooooo predictable.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
In Romans 3 it says this.

No one does good not even one

In Ecclesiastes 7 it says no one is just on earth and does good

In Psalm 14 and 53 it says there is no one who does good, not even one

How can any person say total depravity is not true after reading these passages and see their own sinfulness before our Holy and Righteous and Just God ?

I have a difficult time understanding how any one who says they are a Christian and believes the Bible can disagree with total depravity. They must not see themselves as sinners and think they are somehow good.
Total Depravity is in part about how Wretchedness infiltrates even our good deeds. Tilling the ground is Sinful because of our Wretchedness, even though we plan to feed the world. Even Reprobates feed their children. My example of Total Depravity infiltrating everything we do is "It's like a child polishing his mother's dining-room table with his father's grease-rag"; all of our Good Deeds are a filthy rag. A mother nursing her child is an act of Depravity for a Fallen mother...

If things like feeding your family is a Depraved action until we're Born Again, why is believing the Gospel not also a Depraved action until we are Born Again?
 
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