No "Papacy" in Augustine's Sermon 295

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ramcam2 said:
in eph2: 8-9, we are justified initially by the grace of God through faith... agree?
continuing to v10, it tells us that God has prepared some works for us to do, in other words, it is God’s will for us to do these works... correct?
in other words, it is not the works that God prepared for us that saves us because we were initially saved by grace in v8-9.... correct?
what happens if we fail to do these works, can we still enter heaven? i do not think so.
as catholics, we believe that we are saved by the grace of God alone, but faith and works do play a role in our salvation.
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Lets look at Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

salvation comes by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, for the remission of sins.


We can’t please God in our flesh. We have nothing to offer Him that would impress Him or satisfy His holy justice. That’s why Paul makes the clear point – “not a result of works, so that no one may boast”

meritorious works according to the Rcc, nullifies the grace of God, for if meritorious righteousness can be earned through works, merits, sacraments, or anything else other than Christ alone, then Christ died needlessly. Any system that mingles works with grace preaches a distorted message and a distorted gospel.

Acts 10:43
All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

Acts 15:9
He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.

Acts 16:31
They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved


Notice the above passages does NOT say, believe and do meritorious works.

In regard to verse 10, paul is NOT speaking of meritorious works of the Rcc, but of love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. That come as a result of being born again from above. None of our works, can cause us to receive or maintain salvation and eternal life.
 
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ramcam2 said:
please tell us then what God's word teaches, thanks.

of course, it is God who saves people. do you agree or not in the post on 'works prepared for us beforehand'?
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Romans 4:4-8
Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”​

Seeking in works after the fact to keep one saved undermines the entire enterprise of Grace. That's not salvation by Grace; that is the gracious opportunity to work for your salvation.

Romans 9:14-16
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

John 1:12-13
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, the gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 6:37-40
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him l should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

Where do you get the idea that we get saved by Grace and stay saved by work? Initial salvation is a gift of God, not of us, Jesus will never cast us out, and we will be raised up on the last day. Where does working to keeping yourself saved come in?

God Bless
 
A new day said:
Lets look at Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

salvation comes by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, for the remission of sins.


We can’t please God in our flesh. We have nothing to offer Him that would impress Him or satisfy His holy justice. That’s why Paul makes the clear point – “not a result of works, so that no one may boast”

meritorious works according to the Rcc, nullifies the grace of God, for if meritorious righteousness can be earned through works, merits, sacraments, or anything else other than Christ alone, then Christ died needlessly. Any system that mingles works with grace preaches a distorted message and a distorted gospel.

Acts 10:43
All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

Acts 15:9
He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.

Acts 16:31
They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved


Notice the above passages does NOT say, believe and do meritorious works.

In regard to verse 10, paul is NOT speaking of meritorious works of the Rcc, but of love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. That come as a result of being born again from above. None of our works, can cause us to receive or maintain salvation and eternal life.
Click to expand...
i agree with v8-9 but with verse 10, paul is speaking of works done after we are saved (v8-9). The church teaches that no amount of good works done before the initial justification (save by the grace of God, v8-9) can merit for us salvation. Once a person enters into Christ (justified) it’s a whole different situation ( Rom. 2:6-7; Gal. 6:7-9, ..). do you think one can still enter heaven if one fails to do this works prepared for un beforehand?

here is from the council of trent... “[N]one of those things which precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification; for if it is by grace, it is not now by works; otherwise, as the Apostle [Paul] says, grace is no more grace” (Decree on Justification 8, citing Rom. 11:6).
 
DoctrinesofGraceBapt said:
Romans 4:4-8
Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”​

Seeking in works after the fact to keep one saved undermines the entire enterprise of Grace. That's not salvation by Grace; that is the gracious opportunity to work for your salvation.

Romans 9:14-16
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

John 1:12-13
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, the gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 6:37-40
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him l should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

Where do you get the idea that we get saved by Grace and stay saved by work? Initial salvation is a gift of God, not of us, Jesus will never cast us out, and we will be raised up on the last day. Where does working to keeping yourself saved come in?

God Bless
Click to expand...
in eph2; 10
do you think one, after the initial salvation by the grace of God through faith (v8-9) can still enter heaven if one fails to do the works prepared beforehand?
 
Rc doctrine says... that Christ's work on the cross was insufficient and one must then rely on Rc rituals to finish the work that Christ started and this is precisely what paul is speaking against. That our works, account for nothing that could earn us eternal life. Human will, thought or power through any "good works" or "rituals" before believing the gospel message, or after believing the gospel message will get us into heaven. We can NOT add anything to Christ's finished work on the cross. Absolutely NOTHING.

1 Corinthians 1:19-20
For God says, “I will destroy all human plans of salvation no matter how wise they seem to be, and ignore the best ideas of men, even the most brilliant of them.” So what about these wise men, these scholars, these brilliant debaters of this world’s great affairs? God has made them all look foolish and shown their wisdom to be useless nonsense. For God in his wisdom saw to it that the world would never find God through human brilliance,

When a person starts relying on their own works and rituals in order to receive eternal life, and it does NOT matter if he or she initially believed Jesus died on the cross. He or she is no longer relying on Christ for eternal life. For the person, is relying on their own strength, will, and power, to get them into heaven, instead of relying on Christ.

Christ is useless to you if you are counting on clearing your debt to God by keeping and following Rc "works and rituals"; you are lost from God’s grace
 
A new day said:
Rc doctrine says... that Christ's work on the cross was insufficient and one must then rely on Rc rituals to finish the work that Christ started and this is precisely what paul is speaking against. That our works, account for nothing that could earn us eternal life. Human will, thought or power through any "good works" or "rituals" before believing the gospel message, or after believing the gospel message will get us into heaven. We can NOT add anything to Christ's finished work on the cross. Absolutely NOTHING.

1 Corinthians 1:19-20
For God says, “I will destroy all human plans of salvation no matter how wise they seem to be, and ignore the best ideas of men, even the most brilliant of them.” So what about these wise men, these scholars, these brilliant debaters of this world’s great affairs? God has made them all look foolish and shown their wisdom to be useless nonsense. For God in his wisdom saw to it that the world would never find God through human brilliance,

When a person starts relying on their own works and rituals in order to receive eternal life, and it does NOT matter if he or she initially believed Jesus died on the cross. He or she is no longer relying on Christ for eternal life. For the person, is relying on their own strength, will, and power, to get them into heaven, instead of relying on Christ.

Christ is useless to you if you are counting on clearing your debt to God by keeping and following Rc "works and rituals"; you are lost from God’s grace
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please answer... do you think one, after the initial salvation by the grace of God through faith (v8-9) can still enter heaven if one fails to do the works prepared beforehand (v10)?
 
ramcam2 said:
in eph2; 10
do you think one, after the initial salvation by the grace of God through faith (v8-9) can still enter heaven if one fails to do the works prepared beforehand?
Click to expand...

Why do you think the God who prepared all of history in order for us to do these works can't ensure our works also? This is how God reacts to time: "for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place." Acts 4:27-28. As we "work out" our "own salvation with fear and trembling", "it is God who works in" us, "both to will and to work for his good pleasure." cf. Philippians 2:12-13. The preparing of God for us to walk in these work ensures that we will walk in them in accordance with our liberty.

Besides, Ephesians 2:10 says we are saved to do good works. It doesn't say if you don't do enough good works you will not be saved.

God Bless
 
A new day said:
The question has been answered multiple of times and by multiple of people. And each time, it isn't what you want to hear.

The Rcc doctrines and teachings can be compared to a cloud blowing over a desert without dropping any rain.
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yes, a dust devil! they're aptly named. we get them here and some are humongous (miles wide) and can pick up stuff/trash in them as they go. they can cause a good amount of damage.
 
A new day said:
The question has been answered multiple of times and by multiple of people. And each time, it isn't what you want to hear.

The Rcc doctrines and teachings can be compared to a cloud blowing over a desert without dropping any rain.
Click to expand...
there is no categorical 'yes or no' answer. it is all about evasion/denial. thanks.
 
DoctrinesofGraceBapt said:
Why do you think the God who prepared all of history in order for us to do these works can't ensure our works also? This is how God reacts to time: "for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place." Acts 4:27-28. As we "work out" our "own salvation with fear and trembling", "it is God who works in" us, "both to will and to work for his good pleasure." cf. Philippians 2:12-13. The preparing of God for us to walk in these work ensures that we will walk in them in accordance with our liberty.

Besides, Ephesians 2:10 says we are saved to do good works. It doesn't say if you don't do enough good works you will not be saved.

God Bless
Click to expand...
it is truly all because of the grace of God. it is the grace of God that saves us, not faith, not works. as a matter of fact we cannot do anything without the grace of God, even the act of breathing is because of the grace of God. v10 says God has created us in Christ to do good works He prepared beforehand. the verse does not explicitly say if we will do or not do these works He prepared for us for the simple reason that He did not take away our freewill. this is why i asked in case we do not do them, can we still enter heaven? i still have to see a categorical 'yes or no' from non-catholic posters.
 
ramcam2 said:
Why do you think the God who prepared all of history in order for us to do these works can't ensure our works also? This is how God reacts to time: "for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place." Acts 4:27-28. As we "work out" our "own salvation with fear and trembling", "it is God who works in"us, "both to will and to work for his good pleasure." cf. Philippians 2:12-13. The preparing of God for us to walk in these work ensures that we will walk in them in accordance with our liberty.

Besides, Ephesians 2:10 says we are saved to do good works. It doesn't say if you don't do enough good works you will not be saved.
it is truly all because of the grace of God. it is the grace of God that saves us, not faith, not works. as a matter of fact we cannot do anything without the grace of God, even the act of breathing is because of the grace of God. v10 says God has created us in Christ to do good works He prepared beforehand. the verse does not explicitly say if we will do or not do these works He prepared for us for the simple reason that He did not take away our freewill. this is why i asked in case we do not do them, can we still enter heaven? i still have to see a categorical 'yes or no' from non-catholic posters.
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Nice job running away from the points I just made. I guess that's all I'm going to get. Ephesians 2:10 says we are saved to do good works. It doesn't say if you don't do enough good works you will not be saved. So no, not doing the works does not cause you to lose your salvation. Salvation is of God, not of our doing or not doing works.

God Bless
 
ramcam2 said:
i do not claim i am an expert. i just one to know if you believe or not, that if we fail to do these works prepared for us beforehand, we cannot enter heaven.
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what does scripture say about it? you replied to post 844 and your answer is in the post you replied to - so why keep asking? didn't you read the post before replying? don't you believe what scripture says?

Romans 4:4-8
Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”
 
mica said:
yes, a dust devil! they're aptly named. we get them here and some are humongous (miles wide) and can pick up stuff/trash in them as they go. they can cause a good amount of damage.
Click to expand...

Not speaking of sand storms, dust storms, tornado's, dust devils, twisters, hurricanes, typoons, cyclones, whirlwinds, gales, etc.... but the type of clouds, that produce overcast weather / overcast skies that obscures 95% of the blue sky overhead or all of it, all day. Never producing a drop of rain. Looks like it will rain, but never does.

https://i0.wp.com/agfax.com/wp-cont...eather_university_of_kentucky.jpg?w=600&ssl=1
 
We do NOT need to join a Rcc church and follow Rc rituals in order to get into heaven Period.

Roman's 10:13
for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Acts 16:31
They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

Romans 10:9
that if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him."

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:18
Whoever believes in Him is not condemned,

Nothing in the above verses say you must do good works in order to be saved or receive eternal life. In Ephesians, paul is speaking of a changed life, not one of laboring in Rc rituals, in order to receive eternal life.
 
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