No "Papacy" in Augustine's Sermon 295

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Your question can not be answered with a mere yes or no. Why? because, such answers have been later twisted to mean other than what was originally intended. Not even Rc priests answer your question with a simple yes or no answer. They expound upon what they mean, by their answer.

The biblical definition for God's grace is--- unmerited favor. That means His grace is unearned. Jesus has already earned God's grace for us when He died on the cross. You don't realize that through what Christ has done, we have already received God's grace. And if we have already received His grace through Christ, then why would you need to quantify yourself, when it has already been done for you by Christ, Himself. When Christ died on the cross, He said, "it is finished".

If there was anything more for us to do to qualify to receive God's grace, then Jesus, Himself would not have said "it is finished". His mission was to die on the cross for us. It is HE who earned us God's grace for us. So there is nothing for us to boast in and of ourselves.

Our good works do NOT qualify us to receive God’s grace. He has already given us His grace. It is available. We just need to accept that it is a free gift from Him, and not try to earn it.

Isaiah 64:6
We are all infected and impure with sin. When we display our righteous deeds, they are nothing but filthy rags. Like autumn leaves, we wither and fall, and our sins sweep us away like the wind.


Psalm 49:7
Yet they cannot redeem themselves from death by paying a ransom to God.

Romans 5:8
But God showed his great love for us by sending Christ to die for us while we were still sinners.

Romans 4:5
But people are counted as righteous, not because of their work, but because of their faith in God who forgives sinners.

Romans 3:21-22
But now God has shown us a different way to heaven—not by “being good enough” and trying to keep his laws, but by a new way (though not new, really, for the Scriptures told about it long ago). Now God says he will accept and acquit us—declare us “not guilty”—if we trust Jesus Christ to take away our sins. And we all can be saved in this same way, by coming to Christ, no matter who we are or what we have been like.

Romans 11:6
And if it is by God’s kindness, then it is not by their being good enough. For in that case the free gift would no longer be free—it isn’t free when it is earned.

Philippians 3:9
and become one with him, no longer counting on being saved by being good enough or by obeying God’s laws, but by trusting Christ to save me; for God’s way of making us right with himself depends on faith—counting on Christ alone.

2 Corinthians 3:5
Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

Titus 3:5
he saved us, not because of the righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy.
 
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balshan said:
My post flew over your head, that is okay.
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mica said:
what does scripture say about it? you replied to post 844 and your answer is in the post you replied to - so why keep asking? didn't you read the post before replying? don't you believe what scripture says?

Romans 4:4-8
Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”
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A new day said:
Your question can not be answered with a mere yes or no. Why? because, such answers have been later twisted to mean other than what was originally intended. Not even Rc priests answer your question with a simple yes or no answer. They expound upon what they mean, by their answer.

The biblical definition for God's grace is--- unmerited favor. That means His grace is unearned. Jesus has already earned God's grace for us when He died on the cross. You don't realize that through what Christ has done, we have already received God's grace. And if we have already received His grace through Christ, then why would you need to quantify yourself, when it has already been done for you by Christ, Himself. When Christ died on the cross, He said, "it is finished".

If there was anything more for us to do to qualify to receive God's grace, then Jesus, Himself would not have said "it is finished". His mission was to die on the cross for us. It is HE who earned us God's grace for us. So there is nothing for us to boast in and of ourselves.

Our good works do NOT qualify us to receive God’s grace. He has already given us His grace. It is available. We just need to accept that it is a free gift from Him, and not try to earn it.

Isaiah 64:6
We are all infected and impure with sin. When we display our righteous deeds, they are nothing but filthy rags. Like autumn leaves, we wither and fall, and our sins sweep us away like the wind.


Psalm 49:7
Yet they cannot redeem themselves from death by paying a ransom to God.

Romans 5:8
But God showed his great love for us by sending Christ to die for us while we were still sinners.

Romans 4:5
But people are counted as righteous, not because of their work, but because of their faith in God who forgives sinners.

Romans 3:21-22
But now God has shown us a different way to heaven—not by “being good enough” and trying to keep his laws, but by a new way (though not new, really, for the Scriptures told about it long ago). Now God says he will accept and acquit us—declare us “not guilty”—if we trust Jesus Christ to take away our sins. And we all can be saved in this same way, by coming to Christ, no matter who we are or what we have been like.

Romans 11:6
And if it is by God’s kindness, then it is not by their being good enough. For in that case the free gift would no longer be free—it isn’t free when it is earned.

Philippians 3:9
and become one with him, no longer counting on being saved by being good enough or by obeying God’s laws, but by trusting Christ to save me; for God’s way of making us right with himself depends on faith—counting on Christ alone.

2 Corinthians 3:5
Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

Titus 3:5
he saved us, not because of the righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy.
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DoctrinesofGraceBapt said:
Nice job running away from the points I just made. I guess that's all I'm going to get. Ephesians 2:10 says we are saved to do good works. It doesn't say if you don't do enough good works you will not be saved. So no, not doing the works does not cause you to lose your salvation. Salvation is of God, not of our doing or not doing works.

God Bless
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in Matthew 7: 21, it says: “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of my Father Who is in Heaven.” So, if it is God’s will that you do these works that He has set aside for you, as it says in Ephesians 2:10; yet, you choose not to do those works, you choose not to do God’s will; are you still able to get into the Kingdom of Heaven?

a simple 'yes' or 'no' will do.
 
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ramcam2 said:
in Matthew 7: 21, it says: “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of my Father Who is in Heaven.” So, if it is God’s will that you do these works that He has set aside for you, as it says in Ephesians 2:10; yet, you choose not to do those works, you choose not to do God’s will; are you still able to get into the Kingdom of Heaven?

a simple 'yes' or 'no' will do.
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scripture also says that the will of the Father is to believe in and follow His Son, so why do you believe in and follow the rcc instead?
 
ramcam2 said:
in Matthew 7: 21, it says: “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of my Father Who is in Heaven.” So, if it is God’s will that you do these works that He has set aside for you, as it says in Ephesians 2:10; yet, you choose not to do those works, you choose not to do God’s will; are you still able to get into the Kingdom of Heaven?

a simple 'yes' or 'no' will do.
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You're the one adding in a question to the doing of works. All who are saved will do the works prepared for them. My God is God. If God prepares a work for me, I do it. Not because I am some robot, but because every fiber of my inner being was knit together by him. Every event I lived through was crafted by him. He regenerated me, took out my heart of stone and gave me a heart of flesh. I am his workmanship. So, my will is changed as to necessarily do these works according to the freedom of will I now enjoy. Do I do every good work I can? Nope, but such is part of that preparing too. Do I do good work, yes because that is part of his plan. You pretend people can thwart the plan of God. We can't. Our very ability to choose is established in him. To think we can mess up the predestining will of God is laughable. Please read some Augustine or Aquinas on Predestination before responding with this human philosophy.

Again, "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day." John 6:37-40. Do you believe Jesus fails to do the will of the Father? Do you? Do you think that a human choice to be lazy and narcissistic is more powerful than Satan and all of his demons? Why do you think God is the respecter of men? The text says we are his workmanship. He made us into something else that necessarily does good as opposed to living in sin. He doesn't respect our willful hatred of all that is good; he saves us in spite of ourself. Stop trying to deny Scripture by sneaking in works after the fact. Yes, those who are saved do the will of the Father, because God saved them. Where does this belief that they might not come from? Why don't you just trust what Jesus said in John 6:40 "For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."?

God Bless
 
mica said:
scripture also says that the will of the Father is to believe in and follow His Son, so why do you believe in and follow the rcc instead?
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that is incorrect for we believe that Jesus Christ and His church is the complete package, not just the head or the body alone.
 
mica said:
scripture also says that the will of the Father is to believe in and follow His Son, so why do you believe in and follow the rcc instead?
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ramcam2 said:
that is incorrect for we believe that Jesus Christ and His church is the complete package, not just the head or the body alone.
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are you denying that you believe in and follow the rcc? nowhere does He say that the rcc is His church. the rcc says that and you believe it instead of Him.

your posts say that your heart has no desire to know His truth or to ask Him to help you in understanding it.
 
DoctrinesofGraceBapt said:
You're the one adding in a question to the doing of works. All who are saved will do the works prepared for them. My God is God. If God prepares a work for me, I do it. Not because I am some robot, but because every fiber of my inner being was knit together by him. Every event I lived through was crafted by him. He regenerated me, took out my heart of stone and gave me a heart of flesh. I am his workmanship. So, my will is changed as to necessarily do these works according to the freedom of will I now enjoy. Do I do every good work I can? Nope, but such is part of that preparing too. Do I do good work, yes because that is part of his plan. You pretend people can thwart the plan of God. We can't. Our very ability to choose is established in him. To think we can mess up the predestining will of God is laughable. Please read some Augustine or Aquinas on Predestination before responding with this human philosophy.

Again, "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day." John 6:37-40. Do you believe Jesus fails to do the will of the Father? Do you? Do you think that a human choice to be lazy and narcissistic is more powerful than Satan and all of his demons? Why do you think God is the respecter of men? The text says we are his workmanship. He made us into something else that necessarily does good as opposed to living in sin. He doesn't respect our willful hatred of all that is good; he saves us in spite of ourself. Stop trying to deny Scripture by sneaking in works after the fact. Yes, those who are saved do the will of the Father, because God saved them. Where does this belief that they might not come from? Why don't you just trust what Jesus said in John 6:40 "For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."?

God Bless
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1 Tim 2:4, which states: “[God our Savior] desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” God wants all men to be saved…so saith God through Scripture. Yet you are saying that God “predestine/chose” only certain people to give His grace to…the grace that is necessary to be saved. Isn't is that some do not cooperate with that grace…reject that grace…and end up not being saved?
 
mica said:
are you denying that you believe in and follow the rcc? nowhere does He say that the rcc is His church. the rcc says that and you believe it instead of Him.

your posts say that your heart has no desire to know His truth or to ask Him to help you in understanding it.
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you always say the catholic church is not his church and yet until now you cannot give the name of this one true church.
 
A new day said:
When the apostles were still alive, the believers in their day, were simply known and called "Christians" because all they ever talked about was Christ. First in Antioch, then throughout the roman world.
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ignatius, the third bishop of antioch after peter and evadius, was the first to use the phrase 'catholic church' in his epistle to the smyrnaeans (110ad) on the way to rome to be martyred. he was one of the auditors of john and it was peter who appointed him to the see in antioch. he wrote 7 letters on the way to rome, one to his friend polycarp and 6 to the different churches. these letters are good sources to demonstrate that certain Catholic distinctives have been believed from the very beginning and provide a great deal of insight into what the early Christians believed and how they interpreted Scripture. He used the term 'catholic' to refer to a visible and authoritative church; he urges the faithful to submit to the authority of their bishop because it is the will of God; he recognizes the authority, or “presidency,” in particular of the Church at Rome; he indicates that the Church at Rome possessed the authority to teach others; he confirms that this authoritative Church at Rome was founded by Peter and Paul;he believes in the true and real presence of Jesus Christ in the eucharist; he explains that the Eucharist must be administered either by a bishop or one of his ordained ministers;
 
mica said:
that's been answered for catholics here over and over again since I joined here. that you don't accept it or believe it is because your heart is in bondage to the rcc - you deny His truth.
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the one true church founded by Jesus Christ is not a secret society that has no name and cannot be seen. it is a city set up on a hill for everybody to see and a pearl of great price for all to find and belong to.
 
ramcam2 said:
ignatius, the third bishop of antioch after peter and evadius, was the first to use the phrase 'catholic church' in his epistle to the smyrnaeans (110ad) on the way to rome to be martyred. he was one of the auditors of john and it was peter who appointed him to the see in antioch. he wrote 7 letters on the way to rome, one to his friend polycarp and 6 to the different churches. these letters are good sources to demonstrate that certain Catholic distinctives have been believed from the very beginning and provide a great deal of insight into what the early Christians believed and how they interpreted Scripture. He used the term 'catholic' to refer to a visible and authoritative church; he urges the faithful to submit to the authority of their bishop because it is the will of God; he recognizes the authority, or “presidency,” in particular of the Church at Rome; he indicates that the Church at Rome possessed the authority to teach others; he confirms that this authoritative Church at Rome was founded by Peter and Paul;he believes in the true and real presence of Jesus Christ in the eucharist; he explains that the Eucharist must be administered either by a bishop or one of his ordained ministers;
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those letters are not the inspired word of God.
 
A new day said:
It doesn't matter overall, because too much false doctrines were introduced early on, after the apostles passed away, to even more false teachings today.
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it is very easy to say that but please show something concrete or else it is just hearsay.
 
ramcam2 said:
1 Tim 2:4, which states: “[God our Savior] desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” God wants all men to be saved…so saith God through Scripture. Yet you are saying that God “predestine/chose” only certain people to give His grace to…the grace that is necessary to be saved. Isn't is that some do not cooperate with that grace…reject that grace…and end up not being saved?
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Are you seriously ignoring the direct teaching of countless passages with a single vague reference to all men? Read things in context:

First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:1-4​

So, is Paul all talking about all kinds of men or every man without exclusion? Unless you are praying individually for all 7 billion people on earth, and you're not, you read v1 to mean you should pray for all kinds of people. One should read v4 likewise, who desires all kinds of people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

FYI, Scripture unequivocally teaches that God “predestine/chose” only certain people to give His grace to…the grace that is necessary to be saved.

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day...And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” John 6:44, 65​

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. Eph 1:3-6.​
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For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called heal so justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. Romans 8:29-30​

So, all Christians were predestined to the blessing they now have, cf. Ephesians 1, those predestined will be glorified, cf Romans 8, and no one who isn't given, aka predestine in this way, can come to Jesus to be saved, cf John 6:44, 65.

I keep on bringing this up, but you won't look it up.

It is fitting that God should predestine men. For all things are subject to His providence, as was shown above (I:22:2). Now it belongs to providence to direct things towards their end, as was also said (I:22:1 and I:22:2). Summa Theologiae I:23:1​
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Both Aquinas and Augustine taught God “predestine/chose” only certain people to give His grace to…the grace that is necessary to be saved. And, the Catholic Church still recognizes such as true to some extent. I was literally talking with a priest when another Catholic challenged me on this very topic. The priest mainly agreed with me knowing what Aquinas taught on the subject.

That being said, how does this work out with the Catholic belief that one can lose their salvation? I don't know for sure. I vaguely remember something about those predestined for salvation being given the gift of perseverance so that they will not be lost while the baptized non elect are not given this. Either way, vague references to all men don't change these truths taught in Scripture and in the writings of those recognized as Doctors by the Roman Church.

"Isn't it that some do not cooperate with that grace…reject that grace…and end up not being saved?" Scripture says "And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called heal so justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." Romans 8:30. Therefore, if you are predestined, then you will be glorified. And, "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out." John 6:37. "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." John 6:44. So, men can't come without the Father giving, and those whom were given will be raised up on the last day. With respect to the reprobate, they "do not cooperate with that grace…reject that grace…and end up not being saved." Such can't be said of the other group, the elect. As Aquinas said "Thus, as predestination is a part of providence, in regard to those ordained to eternal salvation, so reprobation is a part of providence in regard to those who turn aside from that end." Summa Theologiae I:23:3.

BTW, there is a difference between how I'm using Scripture and how you just used Scripture. You quoted a passage that states something in passing that could be taken in other ways as to not imply what you think it is implying. I'm quoting from the passages that are directly, in long form, teaching on these topics. Jesus goes on about how one is saved, including election, for like 2/3 of John 6. Paul goes on about predestination for 1 1/2 chapters in Romans and almost a whole chapter in Ephesians. Maybe, just maybe, you should familiarize yourself with this topic before just throwing out one liners and drive by bible quotations.

God Bless
 
On the claim that Jerome usage of the word "Scripture" denotes his "acceptance" of these books as canonical, nothing could be farther from the truth. These books were never accepted by Jerome as inspired (<--key word) and there are others, even in Trent, who held to Jerome's position and denied these books. This may shed a little light...

Did Jerome Change His Mind on the Apocrypha ?

Here's an old post written by my friend Ray Aviles . I originally posted it 06/14/06 . By Ray Aviles There’s an argument going around th...
beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com

Peace,
Ray
 
Bonnie said:
We have listed many of the false doctrines on here that your church has been teaching for centuries. Do you really need to see that list again?
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what you post are your personal interpretations of the bible.
why not post what the apostolic church say about it? and his can be found in the writings of the early christians.
 
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