No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

preacher4truth

Well-known member
Ok so we should be familiar with the yearly day of atonement, and Christs work on the cross which replaces it. We agree there, right (romans 5:11)? I hope so. Here are a few verses about the day of atonement, and what was to be done, and why.

Lev 16
16 And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.
30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the Lord.


Exodus 30
10 And Aaron shall make an atonement upon the horns of it once in a year with the blood of the sin offering of atonements: once in the year shall he make atonement upon it throughout your generations: it is most holy unto the Lord.

Well, in the instructions about the atonement in Exodus 30, the Lord told Moses this:

Exodus 30
11 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
12 When thou takest the sum of the children of Israel after their number, then shall they give every man a ransom for his soul unto the Lord, when thou numberest them; that there be no plague among them, when thou numberest them.
13 This they shall give, every one that passeth among them that are numbered, half a shekel after the shekel of the sanctuary: (a shekel is twenty gerahs an half shekel shall be the offering of the Lord.
14 Every one that passeth among them that are numbered, from twenty years old and above, shall give an offering unto the Lord.

.
Um, it doesn't say only 20 and up were atoneable, it says they were expected to contribute an offering. Obviously you have no clue as to what 20 years old and up meant in the Hebrew culture. It isn't a proof text against the fact all are sinners inherently.

Now go away.
 

cadwell

Well-known member
Um, it doesn't say only 20 and up were atoneable, it says they were expected to contribute an offering. Obviously you have no clue as to what 20 years old and up meant in the Hebrew culture. It isn't a proof text against the fact all are sinners inherently.

Now go away.
By these errors it’s obvious you rushed through the chapter, and this response, but that’s fine. Thank you for the the attempt, I won’t bother to ask what you think 20 years old means in Hebrew. Or what God said the ransom was for. You want to make sure you won’t be seen as avoiding anything. Congratulations.
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
There are no texts concerning "original sin" as it is unbiblical. My argument is based on the fact that it wasnt some sort of internal flaw Adam passed down to all mankind that brought death upon everyone. The bible says that eating of the tree of life is what caused Adam to live forever, and his knowledge of good and evil bringing about the separation and banishment from the garden. A perishable body will perish, we didnt inherit that from Adam due to sin, man is created perishable by God and made good (gen 1:31).

Why are they permitted entry? Does the bible answer that question?

There is zero mention of any "inherent fallen nature" concerning the children allowed to enter the promised land. If there is I would like to see it.

Romans 5
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


Yes, Paul does say thru Adam ALL are under condemnation. No, Paul does not say thru Adam ALL are sinners. He said MANY are made sinners by Adam. Thats kind of what I was getting at in my earlier post, and everything about those 19 and under not being atoned for. You can condemnation for ALL due to Adams sin because he is the reason man lost access to eternal life, the tree of life. You can at the same time have MANY made sinners because of Adam because at an appointed time by God, all will fall like Adam did. Before children fall like Adam, they are as he was in the garden (deut 1:39). God didnt require atonement for them until He said so, and He said age 20.

You should say this in a mirror.
Nonsense. The OT is something every Christian should understand. Nevertheless, trying to use one idea against another idea is not recommended. It's why I tell Christians not to use Leviticus to condemn homosexuality. It leaves them wide open to answer other questions re mixing fabrics, stoning your children etc.

From Got Questions on Pelagianism


Pelagianism is the unbiblical teaching that Adam’s sin did not affect future generations of humanity. According to Pelagianism, Adam’s sin was solely his own, and Adam’s descendants did not inherit a sinful nature passed down to them. God creates every human soul directly, and therefore every human soul starts out in innocence, free from sin. We are not basically bad, says the Pelagian heresy; we are basically good.

Pelagianism is named after Pelagius, a monk who lived in the late 300s and early 400s AD. Pelagius began teaching the doctrine associated with his name in an effort to promote holy living among Christians. When people sinned, Pelagius grew weary of hearing the excuse of “I can’t help it. It’s in my nature to do wrong.” To counter that excuse, Pelagius stressed the freedom of the human will, essentially teaching that all sin is the result of a conscious choice of evil over good; everyone has the ability to freely choose to do good all the time. And, since there is no such thing as original sin or an inherited sin nature, then we cannot blame Adam. God created us good, so no one ever has an excuse for sinning. If you’re not living a holy life, it’s because you’re not trying hard enough.

Pelagianism contradicts the Bible in many places. Romans 5 solidly refutes the notion that Adam’s sin had no effect on us:

• “Sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned” (verse 12).
• “Many died by the trespass of the one man” (verse 15).
• “The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation” (verse 16).
• “By the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man” (verse 17).
• “One trespass resulted in condemnation for all people” (verse 18).
• “Through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners” (verse 19).

Further, the Bible tells us that we are sinful from the moment of conception (Psalm 51:5). All human beings die as a result of sin (Ezekiel 18:20; Romans 6:23).

While Pelagianism says that human beings are not born with a natural inclination toward sin, the Bible says the opposite (Romans 3:10–18). Anyone who has raised children can attest to the fact that infants do not have to be taught how to sin; on the contrary, they must be carefully and consistently taught how to avoid sin and behave wisely, prudently, and righteously.

Pelagianism’s underlying fault is its reliance on human freedom and willpower instead of the grace of God. In saying that we all possess an inherent power to choose holiness for ourselves, Pelagius made the grace of God of no effect. The Bible says that, before the grace of God saves us, we are “dead” in our sins (Ephesians 2:1); Pelagianism says it’s not so bad as all that. We can choose to obey God’s commands, and, if we only knew our true nature, we could please God and save ourselves.

Pelagius and his false doctrine were fought by Augustine and condemned by the Council of Carthage in AD 418, the same year that Pelagius was excommunicated. The doctrine did not disappear, however, and had to be condemned again by the Council of Ephesus (431) and later church councils. Pelagianism survives to this day and shows up in any teaching that says following Christ is primarily a choice we make apart from any supernatural intervention of God’s grace. In any age and in any form, Pelagianism is unscriptural and should be rejected.

************************************

Even if you didn't object to Calvinism, you don't even hold an Arminian view of original sin.

No sale.
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
Opinion, and false accusation. Thank you.

Isn't nearly every doctrine based off God speaking to a specific group of people? Thats why you reject his truth? Yikes!

I am not really moved by this argument.

The context should help you understand what Paul means by ALL.

Lets explore that.

Romans 3
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Yes Paul, those newly fertilized eggs who go out of their way to become unprofitable.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

Those fetus who use their tongues for deceit, they are the worst!

14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

Dont get me started on these infants whos mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

We cant forget all those toddlers whose feet are swift to shed blood. They dont call them the "terrible 2's for nothing!

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

I am sure you've met many destructive and miserable embryos. At what point does it become obvious that this isnt about children?

What a shameful way to use the scriptures.

Worse, you don't seem to understand what Calvinists believe about the salvation of children. Bottom line, God has chosen the elect before the foundation of the world and age is not an issue.
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
Nonsense. The OT is something every Christian should understand. Nevertheless, trying to use one idea against another idea is not recommended. It's why I tell Christians not to use Leviticus to condemn homosexuality. It leaves them wide open to answer other questions re mixing fabrics, stoning your children etc.

From Got Questions on Pelagianism


Pelagianism is the unbiblical teaching that Adam’s sin did not affect future generations of humanity. According to Pelagianism, Adam’s sin was solely his own, and Adam’s descendants did not inherit a sinful nature passed down to them. God creates every human soul directly, and therefore every human soul starts out in innocence, free from sin. We are not basically bad, says the Pelagian heresy; we are basically good.

Pelagianism is named after Pelagius, a monk who lived in the late 300s and early 400s AD. Pelagius began teaching the doctrine associated with his name in an effort to promote holy living among Christians. When people sinned, Pelagius grew weary of hearing the excuse of “I can’t help it. It’s in my nature to do wrong.” To counter that excuse, Pelagius stressed the freedom of the human will, essentially teaching that all sin is the result of a conscious choice of evil over good; everyone has the ability to freely choose to do good all the time. And, since there is no such thing as original sin or an inherited sin nature, then we cannot blame Adam. God created us good, so no one ever has an excuse for sinning. If you’re not living a holy life, it’s because you’re not trying hard enough.

Pelagianism contradicts the Bible in many places. Romans 5 solidly refutes the notion that Adam’s sin had no effect on us:

• “Sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned” (verse 12).
• “Many died by the trespass of the one man” (verse 15).
• “The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation” (verse 16).
• “By the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man” (verse 17).
• “One trespass resulted in condemnation for all people” (verse 18).
• “Through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners” (verse 19).

Further, the Bible tells us that we are sinful from the moment of conception (Psalm 51:5). All human beings die as a result of sin (Ezekiel 18:20; Romans 6:23).

While Pelagianism says that human beings are not born with a natural inclination toward sin, the Bible says the opposite (Romans 3:10–18). Anyone who has raised children can attest to the fact that infants do not have to be taught how to sin; on the contrary, they must be carefully and consistently taught how to avoid sin and behave wisely, prudently, and righteously.

Pelagianism’s underlying fault is its reliance on human freedom and willpower instead of the grace of God. In saying that we all possess an inherent power to choose holiness for ourselves, Pelagius made the grace of God of no effect. The Bible says that, before the grace of God saves us, we are “dead” in our sins (Ephesians 2:1); Pelagianism says it’s not so bad as all that. We can choose to obey God’s commands, and, if we only knew our true nature, we could please God and save ourselves.

Pelagius and his false doctrine were fought by Augustine and condemned by the Council of Carthage in AD 418, the same year that Pelagius was excommunicated. The doctrine did not disappear, however, and had to be condemned again by the Council of Ephesus (431) and later church councils. Pelagianism survives to this day and shows up in any teaching that says following Christ is primarily a choice we make apart from any supernatural intervention of God’s grace. In any age and in any form, Pelagianism is unscriptural and should be rejected.


************************************

Even if you didn't object to Calvinism, you don't even hold an Arminian view of original sin.

No sale.
I wouldn't recommend not using Leviticus for such an instance, this is exactly where Paul and others derived this truth. In addition to that it stands against the imperative of 2 Timothy 3:16ff.

For the record James White and Jeff Durbin both have used Leviticus in this manner as do many others in spite of the fabric arguments.

Other than that disagreement I agree with your post.
 

cadwell

Well-known member
Nonsense. The OT is something every Christian should understand.
Many don’t unfortunately. There are those here who think Joshua is speaking to people who rejected God at Josh 24:15 for example.
Nevertheless, trying to use one idea against another idea is not recommended.
its also not what’s happening.
It's why I tell Christians not to use Leviticus to condemn homosexuality. It leaves them wide open to answer other questions re mixing fabrics, stoning your children etc.
Except the Bible says to do the opposite. Part of the rise in issues like homosexuality come directly from lukewarm takes like yours. The answer isn’t to dilute the truth to appease the world. The answer should have been no more mixed fabrics for you like the Bible says.
From Got Questions on Pelagianism


Pelagianism is the unbiblical teaching that Adam’s sin did not affect future generations of humanity. According to Pelagianism, Adam’s sin was solely his own, and Adam’s descendants did not inherit a sinful nature passed down to them. God creates every human soul directly, and therefore every human soul starts out in innocence, free from sin. We are not basically bad, says the Pelagian heresy; we are basically good.

Pelagianism is named after Pelagius, a monk who lived in the late 300s and early 400s AD. Pelagius began teaching the doctrine associated with his name in an effort to promote holy living among Christians. When people sinned, Pelagius grew weary of hearing the excuse of “I can’t help it. It’s in my nature to do wrong.” To counter that excuse, Pelagius stressed the freedom of the human will, essentially teaching that all sin is the result of a conscious choice of evil over good; everyone has the ability to freely choose to do good all the time. And, since there is no such thing as original sin or an inherited sin nature, then we cannot blame Adam. God created us good, so no one ever has an excuse for sinning. If you’re not living a holy life, it’s because you’re not trying hard enough.

Pelagianism contradicts the Bible in many places. Romans 5 solidly refutes the notion that Adam’s sin had no effect on us:

• “Sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned” (verse 12).
• “Many died by the trespass of the one man” (verse 15).
• “The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation” (verse 16).
• “By the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man” (verse 17).
• “One trespass resulted in condemnation for all people” (verse 18).
• “Through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners” (verse 19).

Further, the Bible tells us that we are sinful from the moment of conception (Psalm 51:5). All human beings die as a result of sin (Ezekiel 18:20; Romans 6:23).

While Pelagianism says that human beings are not born with a natural inclination toward sin, the Bible says the opposite (Romans 3:10–18). Anyone who has raised children can attest to the fact that infants do not have to be taught how to sin; on the contrary, they must be carefully and consistently taught how to avoid sin and behave wisely, prudently, and righteously.

Pelagianism’s underlying fault is its reliance on human freedom and willpower instead of the grace of God. In saying that we all possess an inherent power to choose holiness for ourselves, Pelagius made the grace of God of no effect. The Bible says that, before the grace of God saves us, we are “dead” in our sins (Ephesians 2:1); Pelagianism says it’s not so bad as all that. We can choose to obey God’s commands, and, if we only knew our true nature, we could please God and save ourselves.

Pelagius and his false doctrine were fought by Augustine and condemned by the Council of Carthage in AD 418, the same year that Pelagius was excommunicated. The doctrine did not disappear, however, and had to be condemned again by the Council of Ephesus (431) and later church councils. Pelagianism survives to this day and shows up in any teaching that says following Christ is primarily a choice we make apart from any supernatural intervention of God’s grace. In any age and in any form, Pelagianism is unscriptural and should be rejected.


***********************************

Thanks for this, but it still doesn’t address many points I have brought up. Romans 3 says ALL have sinned, and Romans 5 says that MANY have been made sinners. Why did Paul make the distinction? Don’t you believe Romans 5:19 where it says Jesus made MANY righteous? Isn’t that a core tenet of your belief, the atonement is limited, Jesus didn’t die for everyone, etc? An honest reading of the text accepts that MANY (not all) are made righteous, and MANY (not all) are made sinners.
Even if you didn't object to Calvinism, you don't even hold an Arminian view of original sin.
Original sin is not taught in the Bible.
No offer. The truth just is.
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
I wouldn't recommend not using Leviticus for such an instance, this is exactly where Paul and others derived this truth. In addition to that it stands against the imperative of 2 Timothy 3:16ff.

For the record James White and Jeff Durbin both have used Leviticus in this manner as do many others in spite of the fabric arguments.

Other than that disagreement I agree with your post.

Jeff and James do use this, but not in isolation. My experience is that many Christians find themselves unable to answer the questions that follow.

That is why I do not recommend the Leviticus passage as a prooftext. It should be used with proper New Testament admonitions.
 

cadwell

Well-known member
Other flaws in @cadwell 's arguments and pitting Scripture against Scripture is the glaring fact where God had Israel wipe out men, women, and children.
We aren’t talking about wiping out anyone. We are talking about whether or not God commanded children to atone for sins.

The only thing scripture is opposing are false teachings.
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
Many don’t unfortunately. There are those here who think Joshua is speaking to people who rejected God at Josh 24:15 for example.

its also not what’s happening.

Except the Bible says to do the opposite. Part of the rise in issues like homosexuality come directly from lukewarm takes like yours. The answer isn’t to dilute the truth to appease the world. The answer should have been no more mixed fabrics for you like the Bible says.

Thanks for this, but it still doesn’t address many points I have brought up. Romans 3 says ALL have sinned, and Romans 5 says that MANY have been made sinners. Why did Paul make the distinction? Don’t you believe Romans 5:19 where it says Jesus made MANY righteous? Isn’t that a core tenet of your belief, the atonement is limited, Jesus didn’t die for everyone, etc? An honest reading of the text accepts that MANY (not all) are made righteous, and MANY (not all) are made sinners.

Original sin is not taught in the Bible.

No offer. The truth just is.
Homosexuality is a grave reprobate sin. But it must not be used in Leviticus only. The NT texts should be used as well. No one here is giving this sin a pass.

The rest of your post demonstrates that your views are untenable.
 

cadwell

Well-known member
Homosexuality is a grave reprobate sin. But it must not be used in Leviticus only. The NT texts should be used as well. No one here is giving this sin a pass.
Sorry but I disagree with your handling of scripture in witnessing. The most I could say is that when witnessing younshould concern yourself with what the Spirit wants you to say and less with what you think the person might say back.
The rest of your post demonstrates that your views are untenable.
Your opinion doesn’t change what the Bible says. Adam made MANY (not all) men sinners and Jesus made MANY (not all) men righteous (Romans 5:19).
 

SovereignGrace

Well-known member
The above is your response to @SovereignGrace stated: "His guilt was imputed to all his posterity, and all of us are conceived in this already condemned state, being in Adam."

Your argument is based around knowledge of good and evil, and a conflation of Adams experience and those children mentioned in Deuteronomy.

First, the aforementioned text is not a proof text against nor is it concerning original sin. The context is specifically about those who had sinned in the wilderness and that they will not enter the promised land. The children are among those people and are permitted entry from God. It does not deny the fact of their inherent fallen nature before God which is the doctrinal truth of fallen man presented throughout Scripture.

Secondly Romans 5:12-21 proves all in Adam are sinful and thereby under condemnation, and this includes all of mankind. This is just as true as the fact all in Christ are no longer under said condemnation.

Lastly, learn context, accept correction, and come to a place after this where you can unashamedly implement 2 Timothy 2:15 accurately. As for now you're merely taking verses out of context to support your position.
Here is proof positive he’s a full-blown Pelagianist and would make Pelagius proud…

”This is not what the bible says. We start off with no knowledge of good and evil (deut 1:39) as he did, and then fall as he did (gen 3:22-24).“

“We are not conceived as sinners destined to die because of Adams sin.”
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
Sorry but I disagree with your handling of scripture in witnessing. The most I could say is that when witnessing younshould concern yourself with what the Spirit wants you to say and less with what you think the person might say back.

Your opinion doesn’t change what the Bible says. Adam made MANY (not all) men sinners and Jesus made MANY (not all) men righteous (Romans 5:19).

There is a time when discussion with some people should biblically be halted. We are there.

Titus 3:9


English Standard Version

9 But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.

1 Peter 3:15


English Standard Version

15 but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,

Ephesians 4:29


English Standard Version

29 Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.

1 Corinthians 1:10


English Standard Version

10 I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

2 Timothy 2:14


English Standard Version

14 Remind them of these things, and charge them before God not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers.

James 1:26


English Standard Version

26 If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless.

 

SovereignGrace

Well-known member
The reason why the little ones in Deuteronomy 1:39 weren’t punished was because their fathers weren’t their federal head, representative.

Not that they were born sinless.
 
G

guest1

Guest
I wish you were that stern with homosexuals instead of compromising your witness to them because of what you think they might say.
Oh so you witness to them by calling them out on homosexuality. How is that working out for you converting them ?

We are not to judge those in the world but the Bible says remove the wicked one from your midst ie the church. God judges those outside the church. See 1 Cor 5:11-13.

hope this helps !!!
 

cadwell

Well-known member
The reason why the little ones in Deuteronomy 1:39 weren’t punished was because their fathers weren’t their federal head, representative.
You left out the scriptural citation that says as much because none exist. Your continual denial of sola scritpura is troubling.
Not that they were born sinless.
You should try the actual reason the bible gives instead of making up your own.
 

cadwell

Well-known member
Oh so you witness to them by calling them out on homosexuality. How is that working out for you converting them ?
I witness to everyone with no fear of what they may say to me. There is no argument to be made for anything else.
We are not to judge those in the world but the Bible says remove the wicked one from your midst ie the church. God judges those outside the church. See 1 Cor 5:11-13.

hope this helps !!!
Thats great, but no one is going to tell me to witness by fearing what the response may be. The battle is already lost with that mentality.
 
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