No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

cadwell

Well-known member
No atonement needed until 19? Lol!

link

God told Moses to not accept any ransom for the souls of anyone under 20, as demonstrated in the link above. It was to be an everlasting statute, as demonstrated in the link above. Why God did that is demonstrated in the link above. My belief is based in the scripture, and if you think I am mistaken, you must demonstrate it in scripture. Was there atonement for anyone under 19? Show me. Calling me a false teacher, pretending to know who I know, and running from my posts without directly addressing any of them wont accomplish anything.
 

cadwell

Well-known member
A teen(girl) in WVa was murdered by two teen girls who she thought were her friends a few years ago. One got life with a possibility of parole after 15 years and the other got 30 years because she helped to convict the other one.

I guess those sins don’t need atonement if they’d died before turning 20?

Talk about a false teacher!
So news stories about tragedies can replace scripture. This is further proof that the denial of sola scriptura was projection, as you cannot produce anything in the bible showing God demanding atonement for anyone under 20. Your proof comes from elsewhere, as usual.

A million examples of ppl under 20 "sinning" wont move the needle one bit. All it takes is one example of God demanding atonement for anyone under 20. So far, nothing.
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
I am not the one who said this

preacher4truth said
"Secondly Romans 5:12-21 proves all in Adam are sinful" link

While the bible says this:

Romans 5
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Your anger would be better suited towards those who taught you the false doctrine of yours the bible refutes. You are condemning people as sinners that God does not. If you can look at Romans 5:19 and agree that MANY (and not ALL) are made righteous because of One, you should be able to accept that MANY (and not ALL) are made sinners because of one. Falsely labeling me is the easy way out, I understand and I am not offended. I get it.
I knew you'd pick out that verse and misuse it.

"Anger?" Lol!!!!!!

As a false teacher you have the traits that prove it, concentrating on an out of context verse and misusing it. There are many passages that disprove you, in context. Romans 3:19-23, and the text you just abused in Romans 5:12-21. Paul has already established the fact that all are sinners, verse 19 does not undo that truth, and your argument shows your heretical propensity to pit Scripture against Scripture.
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
link

God told Moses to not accept any ransom for the souls of anyone under 20, as demonstrated in the link above. It was to be an everlasting statute, as demonstrated in the link above. Why God did that is demonstrated in the link above. My belief is based in the scripture, and if you think I am mistaken, you must demonstrate it in scripture. Was there atonement for anyone under 19? Show me. Calling me a false teacher, pretending to know who I know, and running from my posts without directly addressing any of them wont accomplish anything.
So now you're lying about me? None of the above bolded is true, it is you bearing false witness.
 

cadwell

Well-known member
I knew you'd pick out that verse and misuse it.

"Anger?" Lol!!!!!!

As a false teacher you have the traits that prove it, concentrating on an out of context verse and misusing it. There are many passages that disprove you, in context. Romans 3:19-23, and the text you just abused in Romans 5:12-21. Paul has already established the fact that all are sinners, verse 19 does not undo that truth, and your argument shows your heretical propensity to pit Scripture against Scripture.
Why does Paul use ALL in one place, and MANY in another? I believe it is because ALL addresses the people he wrote his letter to, whom he knew all to be sinners (as he was not writing to children). And I believe he used MANY because its truth, knowing God didnt require atonement for everyone, he worded it accordingly.

What say you about it?
 

cadwell

Well-known member
So now you're lying about me? None of the above bolded is true, it is you bearing false witness.
You said I am to be avoided, I call that running. I provided a link explaining exactly what I believe and why, and you didnt have anything to say about it, thus me saying I had posts you didnt directly address. All accurate
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
Ok so we should be familiar with the yearly day of atonement, and Christs work on the cross which replaces it. We agree there, right (romans 5:11)? I hope so. Here are a few verses about the day of atonement, and what was to be done, and why.

Lev 16
16 And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.
30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the Lord.


Exodus 30
10 And Aaron shall make an atonement upon the horns of it once in a year with the blood of the sin offering of atonements: once in the year shall he make atonement upon it throughout your generations: it is most holy unto the Lord.

Well, in the instructions about the atonement in Exodus 30, the Lord told Moses this:

Exodus 30
11 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
12 When thou takest the sum of the children of Israel after their number, then shall they give every man a ransom for his soul unto the Lord, when thou numberest them; that there be no plague among them, when thou numberest them.
13 This they shall give, every one that passeth among them that are numbered, half a shekel after the shekel of the sanctuary: (a shekel is twenty gerahs an half shekel shall be the offering of the Lord.
14 Every one that passeth among them that are numbered, from twenty years old and above, shall give an offering unto the Lord.

.
Um, it doesn't say only 20 and up were atoneable, it says they were expected to contribute an offering. Obviously you have no clue as to what 20 years old and up meant in the Hebrew culture. It isn't a proof text against the fact all are sinners inherently.

Now go away.
 

cadwell

Well-known member
Um, it doesn't say only 20 and up were atoneable, it says they were expected to contribute an offering. Obviously you have no clue as to what 20 years old and up meant in the Hebrew culture. It isn't a proof text against the fact all are sinners inherently.

Now go away.
By these errors it’s obvious you rushed through the chapter, and this response, but that’s fine. Thank you for the the attempt, I won’t bother to ask what you think 20 years old means in Hebrew. Or what God said the ransom was for. You want to make sure you won’t be seen as avoiding anything. Congratulations.
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
There are no texts concerning "original sin" as it is unbiblical. My argument is based on the fact that it wasnt some sort of internal flaw Adam passed down to all mankind that brought death upon everyone. The bible says that eating of the tree of life is what caused Adam to live forever, and his knowledge of good and evil bringing about the separation and banishment from the garden. A perishable body will perish, we didnt inherit that from Adam due to sin, man is created perishable by God and made good (gen 1:31).

Why are they permitted entry? Does the bible answer that question?

There is zero mention of any "inherent fallen nature" concerning the children allowed to enter the promised land. If there is I would like to see it.

Romans 5
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


Yes, Paul does say thru Adam ALL are under condemnation. No, Paul does not say thru Adam ALL are sinners. He said MANY are made sinners by Adam. Thats kind of what I was getting at in my earlier post, and everything about those 19 and under not being atoned for. You can condemnation for ALL due to Adams sin because he is the reason man lost access to eternal life, the tree of life. You can at the same time have MANY made sinners because of Adam because at an appointed time by God, all will fall like Adam did. Before children fall like Adam, they are as he was in the garden (deut 1:39). God didnt require atonement for them until He said so, and He said age 20.

You should say this in a mirror.
Nonsense. The OT is something every Christian should understand. Nevertheless, trying to use one idea against another idea is not recommended. It's why I tell Christians not to use Leviticus to condemn homosexuality. It leaves them wide open to answer other questions re mixing fabrics, stoning your children etc.

From Got Questions on Pelagianism


Pelagianism is the unbiblical teaching that Adam’s sin did not affect future generations of humanity. According to Pelagianism, Adam’s sin was solely his own, and Adam’s descendants did not inherit a sinful nature passed down to them. God creates every human soul directly, and therefore every human soul starts out in innocence, free from sin. We are not basically bad, says the Pelagian heresy; we are basically good.

Pelagianism is named after Pelagius, a monk who lived in the late 300s and early 400s AD. Pelagius began teaching the doctrine associated with his name in an effort to promote holy living among Christians. When people sinned, Pelagius grew weary of hearing the excuse of “I can’t help it. It’s in my nature to do wrong.” To counter that excuse, Pelagius stressed the freedom of the human will, essentially teaching that all sin is the result of a conscious choice of evil over good; everyone has the ability to freely choose to do good all the time. And, since there is no such thing as original sin or an inherited sin nature, then we cannot blame Adam. God created us good, so no one ever has an excuse for sinning. If you’re not living a holy life, it’s because you’re not trying hard enough.

Pelagianism contradicts the Bible in many places. Romans 5 solidly refutes the notion that Adam’s sin had no effect on us:

• “Sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned” (verse 12).
• “Many died by the trespass of the one man” (verse 15).
• “The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation” (verse 16).
• “By the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man” (verse 17).
• “One trespass resulted in condemnation for all people” (verse 18).
• “Through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners” (verse 19).

Further, the Bible tells us that we are sinful from the moment of conception (Psalm 51:5). All human beings die as a result of sin (Ezekiel 18:20; Romans 6:23).

While Pelagianism says that human beings are not born with a natural inclination toward sin, the Bible says the opposite (Romans 3:10–18). Anyone who has raised children can attest to the fact that infants do not have to be taught how to sin; on the contrary, they must be carefully and consistently taught how to avoid sin and behave wisely, prudently, and righteously.

Pelagianism’s underlying fault is its reliance on human freedom and willpower instead of the grace of God. In saying that we all possess an inherent power to choose holiness for ourselves, Pelagius made the grace of God of no effect. The Bible says that, before the grace of God saves us, we are “dead” in our sins (Ephesians 2:1); Pelagianism says it’s not so bad as all that. We can choose to obey God’s commands, and, if we only knew our true nature, we could please God and save ourselves.

Pelagius and his false doctrine were fought by Augustine and condemned by the Council of Carthage in AD 418, the same year that Pelagius was excommunicated. The doctrine did not disappear, however, and had to be condemned again by the Council of Ephesus (431) and later church councils. Pelagianism survives to this day and shows up in any teaching that says following Christ is primarily a choice we make apart from any supernatural intervention of God’s grace. In any age and in any form, Pelagianism is unscriptural and should be rejected.

************************************

Even if you didn't object to Calvinism, you don't even hold an Arminian view of original sin.

No sale.
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
Opinion, and false accusation. Thank you.

Isn't nearly every doctrine based off God speaking to a specific group of people? Thats why you reject his truth? Yikes!

I am not really moved by this argument.

The context should help you understand what Paul means by ALL.

Lets explore that.

Romans 3
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Yes Paul, those newly fertilized eggs who go out of their way to become unprofitable.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

Those fetus who use their tongues for deceit, they are the worst!

14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

Dont get me started on these infants whos mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

We cant forget all those toddlers whose feet are swift to shed blood. They dont call them the "terrible 2's for nothing!

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

I am sure you've met many destructive and miserable embryos. At what point does it become obvious that this isnt about children?

What a shameful way to use the scriptures.

Worse, you don't seem to understand what Calvinists believe about the salvation of children. Bottom line, God has chosen the elect before the foundation of the world and age is not an issue.
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
Nonsense. The OT is something every Christian should understand. Nevertheless, trying to use one idea against another idea is not recommended. It's why I tell Christians not to use Leviticus to condemn homosexuality. It leaves them wide open to answer other questions re mixing fabrics, stoning your children etc.

From Got Questions on Pelagianism


Pelagianism is the unbiblical teaching that Adam’s sin did not affect future generations of humanity. According to Pelagianism, Adam’s sin was solely his own, and Adam’s descendants did not inherit a sinful nature passed down to them. God creates every human soul directly, and therefore every human soul starts out in innocence, free from sin. We are not basically bad, says the Pelagian heresy; we are basically good.

Pelagianism is named after Pelagius, a monk who lived in the late 300s and early 400s AD. Pelagius began teaching the doctrine associated with his name in an effort to promote holy living among Christians. When people sinned, Pelagius grew weary of hearing the excuse of “I can’t help it. It’s in my nature to do wrong.” To counter that excuse, Pelagius stressed the freedom of the human will, essentially teaching that all sin is the result of a conscious choice of evil over good; everyone has the ability to freely choose to do good all the time. And, since there is no such thing as original sin or an inherited sin nature, then we cannot blame Adam. God created us good, so no one ever has an excuse for sinning. If you’re not living a holy life, it’s because you’re not trying hard enough.

Pelagianism contradicts the Bible in many places. Romans 5 solidly refutes the notion that Adam’s sin had no effect on us:

• “Sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned” (verse 12).
• “Many died by the trespass of the one man” (verse 15).
• “The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation” (verse 16).
• “By the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man” (verse 17).
• “One trespass resulted in condemnation for all people” (verse 18).
• “Through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners” (verse 19).

Further, the Bible tells us that we are sinful from the moment of conception (Psalm 51:5). All human beings die as a result of sin (Ezekiel 18:20; Romans 6:23).

While Pelagianism says that human beings are not born with a natural inclination toward sin, the Bible says the opposite (Romans 3:10–18). Anyone who has raised children can attest to the fact that infants do not have to be taught how to sin; on the contrary, they must be carefully and consistently taught how to avoid sin and behave wisely, prudently, and righteously.

Pelagianism’s underlying fault is its reliance on human freedom and willpower instead of the grace of God. In saying that we all possess an inherent power to choose holiness for ourselves, Pelagius made the grace of God of no effect. The Bible says that, before the grace of God saves us, we are “dead” in our sins (Ephesians 2:1); Pelagianism says it’s not so bad as all that. We can choose to obey God’s commands, and, if we only knew our true nature, we could please God and save ourselves.

Pelagius and his false doctrine were fought by Augustine and condemned by the Council of Carthage in AD 418, the same year that Pelagius was excommunicated. The doctrine did not disappear, however, and had to be condemned again by the Council of Ephesus (431) and later church councils. Pelagianism survives to this day and shows up in any teaching that says following Christ is primarily a choice we make apart from any supernatural intervention of God’s grace. In any age and in any form, Pelagianism is unscriptural and should be rejected.


************************************

Even if you didn't object to Calvinism, you don't even hold an Arminian view of original sin.

No sale.
I wouldn't recommend not using Leviticus for such an instance, this is exactly where Paul and others derived this truth. In addition to that it stands against the imperative of 2 Timothy 3:16ff.

For the record James White and Jeff Durbin both have used Leviticus in this manner as do many others in spite of the fabric arguments.

Other than that disagreement I agree with your post.
 

cadwell

Well-known member
Nonsense. The OT is something every Christian should understand.
Many don’t unfortunately. There are those here who think Joshua is speaking to people who rejected God at Josh 24:15 for example.
Nevertheless, trying to use one idea against another idea is not recommended.
its also not what’s happening.
It's why I tell Christians not to use Leviticus to condemn homosexuality. It leaves them wide open to answer other questions re mixing fabrics, stoning your children etc.
Except the Bible says to do the opposite. Part of the rise in issues like homosexuality come directly from lukewarm takes like yours. The answer isn’t to dilute the truth to appease the world. The answer should have been no more mixed fabrics for you like the Bible says.
From Got Questions on Pelagianism


Pelagianism is the unbiblical teaching that Adam’s sin did not affect future generations of humanity. According to Pelagianism, Adam’s sin was solely his own, and Adam’s descendants did not inherit a sinful nature passed down to them. God creates every human soul directly, and therefore every human soul starts out in innocence, free from sin. We are not basically bad, says the Pelagian heresy; we are basically good.

Pelagianism is named after Pelagius, a monk who lived in the late 300s and early 400s AD. Pelagius began teaching the doctrine associated with his name in an effort to promote holy living among Christians. When people sinned, Pelagius grew weary of hearing the excuse of “I can’t help it. It’s in my nature to do wrong.” To counter that excuse, Pelagius stressed the freedom of the human will, essentially teaching that all sin is the result of a conscious choice of evil over good; everyone has the ability to freely choose to do good all the time. And, since there is no such thing as original sin or an inherited sin nature, then we cannot blame Adam. God created us good, so no one ever has an excuse for sinning. If you’re not living a holy life, it’s because you’re not trying hard enough.

Pelagianism contradicts the Bible in many places. Romans 5 solidly refutes the notion that Adam’s sin had no effect on us:

• “Sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned” (verse 12).
• “Many died by the trespass of the one man” (verse 15).
• “The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation” (verse 16).
• “By the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man” (verse 17).
• “One trespass resulted in condemnation for all people” (verse 18).
• “Through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners” (verse 19).

Further, the Bible tells us that we are sinful from the moment of conception (Psalm 51:5). All human beings die as a result of sin (Ezekiel 18:20; Romans 6:23).

While Pelagianism says that human beings are not born with a natural inclination toward sin, the Bible says the opposite (Romans 3:10–18). Anyone who has raised children can attest to the fact that infants do not have to be taught how to sin; on the contrary, they must be carefully and consistently taught how to avoid sin and behave wisely, prudently, and righteously.

Pelagianism’s underlying fault is its reliance on human freedom and willpower instead of the grace of God. In saying that we all possess an inherent power to choose holiness for ourselves, Pelagius made the grace of God of no effect. The Bible says that, before the grace of God saves us, we are “dead” in our sins (Ephesians 2:1); Pelagianism says it’s not so bad as all that. We can choose to obey God’s commands, and, if we only knew our true nature, we could please God and save ourselves.

Pelagius and his false doctrine were fought by Augustine and condemned by the Council of Carthage in AD 418, the same year that Pelagius was excommunicated. The doctrine did not disappear, however, and had to be condemned again by the Council of Ephesus (431) and later church councils. Pelagianism survives to this day and shows up in any teaching that says following Christ is primarily a choice we make apart from any supernatural intervention of God’s grace. In any age and in any form, Pelagianism is unscriptural and should be rejected.


***********************************

Thanks for this, but it still doesn’t address many points I have brought up. Romans 3 says ALL have sinned, and Romans 5 says that MANY have been made sinners. Why did Paul make the distinction? Don’t you believe Romans 5:19 where it says Jesus made MANY righteous? Isn’t that a core tenet of your belief, the atonement is limited, Jesus didn’t die for everyone, etc? An honest reading of the text accepts that MANY (not all) are made righteous, and MANY (not all) are made sinners.
Even if you didn't object to Calvinism, you don't even hold an Arminian view of original sin.
Original sin is not taught in the Bible.
No offer. The truth just is.
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
I wouldn't recommend not using Leviticus for such an instance, this is exactly where Paul and others derived this truth. In addition to that it stands against the imperative of 2 Timothy 3:16ff.

For the record James White and Jeff Durbin both have used Leviticus in this manner as do many others in spite of the fabric arguments.

Other than that disagreement I agree with your post.

Jeff and James do use this, but not in isolation. My experience is that many Christians find themselves unable to answer the questions that follow.

That is why I do not recommend the Leviticus passage as a prooftext. It should be used with proper New Testament admonitions.
 

cadwell

Well-known member
Other flaws in @cadwell 's arguments and pitting Scripture against Scripture is the glaring fact where God had Israel wipe out men, women, and children.
We aren’t talking about wiping out anyone. We are talking about whether or not God commanded children to atone for sins.

The only thing scripture is opposing are false teachings.
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
Many don’t unfortunately. There are those here who think Joshua is speaking to people who rejected God at Josh 24:15 for example.

its also not what’s happening.

Except the Bible says to do the opposite. Part of the rise in issues like homosexuality come directly from lukewarm takes like yours. The answer isn’t to dilute the truth to appease the world. The answer should have been no more mixed fabrics for you like the Bible says.

Thanks for this, but it still doesn’t address many points I have brought up. Romans 3 says ALL have sinned, and Romans 5 says that MANY have been made sinners. Why did Paul make the distinction? Don’t you believe Romans 5:19 where it says Jesus made MANY righteous? Isn’t that a core tenet of your belief, the atonement is limited, Jesus didn’t die for everyone, etc? An honest reading of the text accepts that MANY (not all) are made righteous, and MANY (not all) are made sinners.

Original sin is not taught in the Bible.

No offer. The truth just is.
Homosexuality is a grave reprobate sin. But it must not be used in Leviticus only. The NT texts should be used as well. No one here is giving this sin a pass.

The rest of your post demonstrates that your views are untenable.
 

cadwell

Well-known member
Homosexuality is a grave reprobate sin. But it must not be used in Leviticus only. The NT texts should be used as well. No one here is giving this sin a pass.
Sorry but I disagree with your handling of scripture in witnessing. The most I could say is that when witnessing younshould concern yourself with what the Spirit wants you to say and less with what you think the person might say back.
The rest of your post demonstrates that your views are untenable.
Your opinion doesn’t change what the Bible says. Adam made MANY (not all) men sinners and Jesus made MANY (not all) men righteous (Romans 5:19).
 
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