No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

SovereignGrace

Well-known member
The above is your response to @SovereignGrace stated: "His guilt was imputed to all his posterity, and all of us are conceived in this already condemned state, being in Adam."

Your argument is based around knowledge of good and evil, and a conflation of Adams experience and those children mentioned in Deuteronomy.

First, the aforementioned text is not a proof text against nor is it concerning original sin. The context is specifically about those who had sinned in the wilderness and that they will not enter the promised land. The children are among those people and are permitted entry from God. It does not deny the fact of their inherent fallen nature before God which is the doctrinal truth of fallen man presented throughout Scripture.

Secondly Romans 5:12-21 proves all in Adam are sinful and thereby under condemnation, and this includes all of mankind. This is just as true as the fact all in Christ are no longer under said condemnation.

Lastly, learn context, accept correction, and come to a place after this where you can unashamedly implement 2 Timothy 2:15 accurately. As for now you're merely taking verses out of context to support your position.
Here is proof positive he’s a full-blown Pelagianist and would make Pelagius proud…

”This is not what the bible says. We start off with no knowledge of good and evil (deut 1:39) as he did, and then fall as he did (gen 3:22-24).“

“We are not conceived as sinners destined to die because of Adams sin.”
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
Sorry but I disagree with your handling of scripture in witnessing. The most I could say is that when witnessing younshould concern yourself with what the Spirit wants you to say and less with what you think the person might say back.

Your opinion doesn’t change what the Bible says. Adam made MANY (not all) men sinners and Jesus made MANY (not all) men righteous (Romans 5:19).

There is a time when discussion with some people should biblically be halted. We are there.

Titus 3:9


English Standard Version

9 But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.

1 Peter 3:15


English Standard Version

15 but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,

Ephesians 4:29


English Standard Version

29 Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.

1 Corinthians 1:10


English Standard Version

10 I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

2 Timothy 2:14


English Standard Version

14 Remind them of these things, and charge them before God not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers.

James 1:26


English Standard Version

26 If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless.

 

SovereignGrace

Well-known member
The reason why the little ones in Deuteronomy 1:39 weren’t punished was because their fathers weren’t their federal head, representative.

Not that they were born sinless.
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
I wish you were that stern with homosexuals instead of compromising your witness to them because of what you think they might say.
Oh so you witness to them by calling them out on homosexuality. How is that working out for you converting them ?

We are not to judge those in the world but the Bible says remove the wicked one from your midst ie the church. God judges those outside the church. See 1 Cor 5:11-13.

hope this helps !!!
 

cadwell

Well-known member
The reason why the little ones in Deuteronomy 1:39 weren’t punished was because their fathers weren’t their federal head, representative.
You left out the scriptural citation that says as much because none exist. Your continual denial of sola scritpura is troubling.
Not that they were born sinless.
You should try the actual reason the bible gives instead of making up your own.
 

cadwell

Well-known member
Oh so you witness to them by calling them out on homosexuality. How is that working out for you converting them ?
I witness to everyone with no fear of what they may say to me. There is no argument to be made for anything else.
We are not to judge those in the world but the Bible says remove the wicked one from your midst ie the church. God judges those outside the church. See 1 Cor 5:11-13.

hope this helps !!!
Thats great, but no one is going to tell me to witness by fearing what the response may be. The battle is already lost with that mentality.
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
I witness to everyone with no fear of what they may say to me. There is no argument to be made for anything else.

Thats great, but no one is going to tell me to witness by fearing what the response may be. The battle is already lost with that mentality.
I'm talking about you and no one else and you avoided my question.

Do you condemn them when you witness ? yes or no
 

cadwell

Well-known member
I'm talking about you and no one else and you avoided my question.
I didn’t avoid anything. You asked me if I call out homosexuals and how was it working for me. I responded that I witness with no fear of what the response may be, and reject any argument to the contrary.
Do you condemn them when you witness ? yes or no
This is a new question. The answer depends on what you mean by condemn. Do I see a homosexual and decide to attack them with hellfire for their actions? That would be a no. Do I witness in truth that may sometimes be uncomfortable for them? Yes.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I didn’t avoid anything. You asked me if I call out homosexuals and how was it working for me. I responded that I witness with no fear of what the response may be, and reject any argument to the contrary.

This is a new question. The answer depends on what you mean by condemn. Do I see a homosexual and decide to attack them with hellfire for their actions? That would be a no. Do I witness in truth that may sometimes be uncomfortable for them? Yes.
Homosexual Teens?
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
I didn’t avoid anything. You asked me if I call out homosexuals and how was it working for me. I responded that I witness with no fear of what the response may be, and reject any argument to the contrary.

This is a new question. The answer depends on what you mean by condemn. Do I see a homosexual and decide to attack them with hellfire for their actions? That would be a no. Do I witness in truth that may sometimes be uncomfortable for them? Yes.
And have you shared the gospel with anyone who is homosexual ?

If so how did it go can you elaborate on your conversation ?

Did you know them personally or were they strangers ?
 

cadwell

Well-known member
And have you shared the gospel with anyone who is homosexual ?
Yep
If so how did it go can you elaborate on your conversation ?
No, I don’t feel particularly inclined to discuss that with you.
Did you know them personally or were they strangers ?
Both.

Hopefully there is a point to these questions that doesnt end with you telling me which passages God can use to witness to people. Cuz that’s how this whole tangent started and I reject that line of thinking.
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
Yep

No, I don’t feel particularly inclined to discuss that with you.

Both.

Hopefully there is a point to these questions that doesnt end with you telling me which passages God can use to witness to people. Cuz that’s how this whole tangent started and I reject that line of thinking.
So you cannot talk about how you share the gospel. That is brilliant.
 

cadwell

Well-known member
So you cannot talk about how you share the gospel. That is brilliant.
There is a difference between CAN’T and WON’T. I refuse to elaborate on those particular conversations. I am under no compulsion to do so, and I owe you no explanation. You are just somehow going to have to be ok with that.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I talk about how I share it all the time :)
It is what it is - by ReverendRV

Matthew 24:24 KJV
; For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Have you heard the saying “It is what it is”? It’s the first Law of Logic known as the Law of Identity, and these Laws are Transcendent. ~ One of my favorite shows is a popular magic, hidden camera TV show. I like to watch it with my daughter and I tell her that the Magician is trying to get the people to believe a Lie by 'controlling their thinking'. The reason the Show works is because of the Laws of Logic, which are within us all. The Magician takes the Law of Identity and shows people one thing first, then introduces a contradiction which results when the Magician swaps another thing for the first, which has a different Identity but is portrayed as if it were the first thing. This is when the Law of Identity begins to wrestle with the Law of Non Contradiction; and the people say "Wait; how did you do that??". The reason that Prestidigitation works so well is because the Magician gets inside your head, and all of the sudden 'it is what it is' and 'it ain't what it is' seem true at the same time; now the Law of Identity and the Law of Non Contradiction are butting heads, an Irresistible Force vs. an Unmovable Object; a clash of titans…

Have you ever had another god other than the Logical and Transcendent God of the Bible? These days there are less Christians than there used to be. Have you ever said something like, “To me god would never lead anyone into Temptation”. Then you’re an Idolater; the Bible says that the Holy Ghost led Jesus into the desert to be tempted. Have you ever taken the name of the Lord in Vain? That’s called Blasphemy, and these are only three of the Ten Commandments. If God judged you by his standard, would you be innocent or guilty? Would you go to Heaven or to Hell? Hating God will do you no good; Jesus said that Hatred is Murder and he’s your Judge. ~ There is Proof the Bible is true; so do a Study…

But God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting Life! Jesus Christ never Sinned and was our second chance when he became the Second Adam; a new Representative. He became the sacrifice for Sin by spilling his blood and dying on the Cross, and he becomes the Son of Righteousness by rising from the grave like the morning Sun. We’re Saved and Forgiven by the Grace of God through Faith in the Resurrected Savior Jesus Christ, not by Works lest we should boast. Repent of your Sins, Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord God and look for a good Church that’s like the woman described in Proverbs 31. ~ The effect of Miracles may have felt the same to those at the time of Christ as we feel about magic today, but a Magician’s effect won’t grow new limbs on people. That's when the Third Law of Logic, the Excluded Middle, makes the case for Christ…

John 10:37-38 NLT; Don't believe me unless I carry out my Father's work. But if I do his work, believe in the evidence of the miraculous works I have done, even if you don't believe me. Then you will know and understand that the Father is in me, and I am in the Father."
 

SovereignGrace

Well-known member
There is a time when discussion with some people should biblically be halted. We are there.

Titus 3:9


English Standard Version

9 But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.

1 Peter 3:15


English Standard Version

15 but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,

Ephesians 4:29


English Standard Version

29 Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.

1 Corinthians 1:10


English Standard Version

10 I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

2 Timothy 2:14


English Standard Version

14 Remind them of these things, and charge them before God not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers.

James 1:26


English Standard Version

26 If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless.

How much you wanna bet our resident Harry Tick also denies the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ as well? He has to if he wishes to remain consistent with his denial of Adam's guilt being imputed to all his posterity.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Indeed!
No man can come here means no man has the ability to come to Christ. That cancels out the myth that man has a freewill,

It also means that no man has the ability to believe on Christ for Salvation. Because Christ equates believing on Him with coming to Him. Jn 6:64-65
What about after one is regenerated by God? Does God do the believing for him, or does man (then) freely choose willingly?
 
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