No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

[Theo1689]

It convinced me enough to change my Mind. I'll do the study again...

Fair enough...

 

[ReverendRV]

So you think that Jesus, while He is holding an actual living breathing child (Matt 18:2), is being figurative when He said these little ones which believe in me? The comparison to adult believers is made in verses 3 and 4, but verse 6 He is holding an actual child and said they believe in Him. He calls children believers. You dont believe Him?

So how is it that these little ones can Believe in Jesus, but not believe what Jesus believed about their Sinfulness?

 

[cadwell]

So how is it that these little ones can Believe in Jesus, but not believe what Jesus believed about their Sinfulness?

What exactly does Jesus believe about the sinfulness of a child?

 

[preacher4truth]

So how is it that these little ones can Believe in Jesus, but not believe what Jesus believed about their Sinfulness?

There would be no need for them to believe in him as their Savior since they're sinless and need no salvation.

Note how John uses "little children" when referring to toddlers...oops...I mean believers in 1 John. Wonder where he came up with that theopneustos term?

 

[cadwell]

I get that from the context.

I see @cadwell accuses me of not believing Jesus because he was holding a child as an attack on my position which the context literally supports.

The context has Jesus literally holding a child (matt 18:2) while saying these (referring to said child) believe in me (verse 6). When He wanted the adults to behave figuratively as children, He said "AS this little child" (verse 3) and "AS little children" (verse 2). Your interpretation has Jesus telling His disciples to behave..........like unbelievers???

I have heard in the past an argument that verse 6 can mean both adults and children, and I have no problem with that.

I suppose this must mean the fig tree he cursed was literally Israel. Thus we see the fallacious hermeneutic he employs.

Great example. You see how a fig tree the doesnt BEAR FRUIT can be compared to a nation that doesnt? Well it works the same way in Matt 18.

 

[cadwell]

There would be no need for them to believe in him as their Savior since they're sinless and need no salvation.

According to you maybe. According to Jesus, children believe in Him (matt 18:6) and the kingdom of Heaven is for them (matt 19:14). I'll give you one guess who I believe.

Note how John uses "little children" when referring to toddlers...oops...I mean believers in 1 John. Wonder where he came up with that theopneustos term?

Johns used "little children" as a way to describe adults, agreed 100%. As little children is what Jesus told His disciples to be in Matt 18:2-3, after all. But here is this:

1 John2
12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.
13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.
14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

Verse 12, the little children (adults) have their sins forgiven.
Verse 13, the fathers (adults still, but older men) have know Him that is from the beginning.
Verse 13, young men (adults still, but younger age group than the fathers) have overcome the wicked one
Verse 13, little children (NOW he is talking about actual children) they have known the Father.
Verse 14, back to fathers (but this time speaking more to elders depending on who you ask) have also know Him that is from the beginning
Verse 14, back to the young men (young adults), strong, Word of God in them, overcame the wicked one.

Do you notice how "little children" in verse 13 (which is different from "little children" in verse 12) know the Father? Why do you think that is, that there is no mention of forgiving sins or overcoming the wicked one when John directly addressed children/infants? But only when he addressed adults?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Oh no, I don't reject Original Sin and I don't hold to an Age of Accountability. I've come to the conclusion that Infants don't Lie while in the womb. As far as Jesus saying these little ones love him, I'm looking for it. It was probably in a certain Translation, and I can't find it right now...

Tell me what you believe Original Sin teaches. I don't think your view of it is the Reformed view, if I am understanding you correctly. TIA.

 

[SovereignGrace]

each soul of His will consciously choose Him.

we have very little free choice
but that 1 choice we do have.

So the lost are dead, but they are not that dead that they are incapable of choosing?

 

[SovereignGrace]

no it’s not that sort of logic.

it’s that a soul can hear Him and respond.

Which means they are alive, right?

 

[SovereignGrace]

even though a soul be little

if a soul cannot respond, she cannot repent.

an action is required of a soul - to accept Him…

that is a choice.

And even repentance is a gift of God per Rom. 2:4, 2 Cor. 7:10, 2 Tim. 2:25, Acts 5:31, Acts 11:18.

 

[SovereignGrace]

it means they are a soul.

what is dead is this body - see haggai 2.

this is not the body adam received in eden, and what was not dead.

And the spirit in the lost person is dead...see Nekros, the Greek word used for 'dead'.

 

[SovereignGrace]

if a soul doesn’t choose then sin is meaningless

They are already born dead in sin and transgressions, being conceived in Adam.

and adam did not sin.

What did he do then, if he did not sin? Notice than when Eve ate of the Tree of Knowledge the bible makes no mention of a change in her status before God. It was after Adam ate that THEIR(plural, both of them) eyes were opened.

a man repents and thats a choice.

Yet, you easily and readily dismiss those FIVE vss I gave you that proves repentance is a gift of God.

not freedom capital letters but a choice.

No one is free, not even the saved. We are either slaves to sin and Satan or righteousness and Christ. There are no neutrally free ppl walking around on earth.

only satan wants zombies for sons.

The lost are not zombies but dead. Again, look up the meaning of nekros, the Greek word used for 'dead'.

 

[SovereignGrace]

there is only the soul and this fleshbody (what paul calls it). the mind is the carnal mind and self.

the soul is npsh. see the OT hebrew.

it means living being - 1 undivided living being.

because of adams willful disobedience
we are living in dead bodies.

haggai 2.

Man is body, soul and spirit. He is tripartite.

 

[SovereignGrace]

the spirit ruling a soul is either His spirit or a satanic one.

only a soul can be saved.

this fleshbody is a horror to Him.

at the change soon we are restored to the body given adam… and eve - the imperishable eden body and our resurrection body.

yes.. eve is innocent… it’s adam who sinned. he left her alone unprotected.

being saved is at the Change.

We all were conceived dead in Adam, as David testified to in Psalm 51:5 and Psalm 58:3. This is also testified to by Paul in 1 Cor. 15:22 and Rom. 5:12ff. The lost are dead in Adam and Satan is their ruler. They are slaves to him and sin. Only when God breaks that bondage Satan has on them are they free to come to him. Satan will not let them go of his own volition, and they are unable, in and of themselves, to break free from his clutches. That is what total depravity teaches. In the fall, all of man's faculties have been affected by sin and there is not one iota of righteousness to be found in them. It does not mean that men are as evil as they can be(though we have seen some that seem to be that evil, such as Hitler, Bin Laden, Hussein, Pol Pot, Vlad Dracula{Vlad the Impaler}, just to name a few) but that they are utterly unable to recover themselves from their fallen in Adam condition. That is why regeneration is an absolute necessary to save them.

 

[brightfame52]

each soul of His will consciously choose Him.

we have very little free choice
but that 1 choice we do have.

What you are promoting here is so contrary to scripture !

 

[brightfame52]

A person dead in trespasses and sin cannot come to Christ because he does not have the will to come, nor can he hear the Word of God John 5:40; 8:43

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

 

[ReverendRV]

Tell me what you believe Original Sin teaches. I don't think your view of it is the Reformed view, if I am understanding you correctly. TIA.

Original Sin is a generational Curse which results in our inheriting the Unconditional Consequences and Guilt of Adam's Original Sin in the Garden of Eden for breaking the Edenic Covenant of Works, as if we we're Real Participants with Adam and Eve; leaving all who are in Adam Fallen, Totally Depraved Sinners...

 

[Yodas_Prodigy]

Does not prevent 'dead to sin' to respond to God's witnesses.

When man is dead in his sins, his nature is against God... His nature controls his will... He will not and cannot come to God without divine help... That simple... Why is that so hard?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Original Sin is a generational Curse which results in our inheriting the Unconditional Consequences and Guilt of Adam's Original Sin in the Garden of Eden for breaking the Edenic Covenant of Works, as if we we're Real Participants with Adam and Eve; leaving all who are in Adam Fallen, Totally Depraved Sinners...

I (mostly) agree with this (and maybe it’s I who am wrong) but I don’t know that it means we are real participants with Adam, but that when we are conceived we are imputed that guilt and God views us as if we did it ourselves. Maybe this is a distinction without a difference?

So, babies never love God, seeing that are conceived at variance with Him.

 

[SovereignGrace]

if a soul sincerely wants Him

He will help you Die to that Self.

And if a soul sincerely wants Him, then He has ALREADY wrought grace in that person. The unregenerate person wants nothing to do with Him[Rom. 8:5-9, 1 Cor. 1:18, & 1 Cor. 2:14].