No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

preacher4truth

Well-known member
I (mostly) agree with this (and maybe it’s I who am wrong) but I don’t know that it means we are real participants with Adam, but that when we are conceived we are imputed that guilt and God views us as if we did it ourselves. Maybe this is a distinction without a difference?

So, babies never love God, seeing that are conceived at variance with Him.
What I find intriguing is that the entire creation has come under a curse as per Romans 8 &c, and people accept this truth, but then say man get's to choose to obey God just like Adam, and if not then they become sinners like him. It is as if the universal consequences of the fall do not apply to them until they exercise almighty free will. Man-centered nonsense right there.
 

SovereignGrace

Well-known member
What I find intriguing is that the entire creation has come under a curse as per Romans 8 &c, and people accept this truth, but then say man get's to choose to obey God just like Adam, and if not then they become sinners like him. It is as if the universal consequences of the fall do not apply to them until they exercise almighty free will. Man-centered nonsense right there.
There’s that little island of righteousness that was left unaffected by the fall, their free will.
 

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
When man is dead in his sins, his nature is against God... His nature controls his will... He will not and cannot come to God without divine help... That simple... Why is that so hard?
God has given gracious divine help: Creation testifying, law written in the hearts, conscience bearing witness, Holy Spirit reproving, the gospel of salvation to whosoever believes.
 

civic

Well-known member
the flesh itself is sin.

sin is not just a system or an action.

the corruption caused by the fall
is cosmological not just a mental state.

if you go and enjoy this world and body,

that is the sin realm being enjoyed.
I think this is what @SovereignGrace is talking about below that we can live by the flesh(carnal nature) or by the spirit to either glorify God or self-our fallen sinful and corrupt nature. Paul is contrasting the two and those who practice or continue in the flesh will not inherit the kingdom but only those who live by the spirit will.

Galatians 5:19-22
The acts of the flesh are obvious:
sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

Galatians 6:8
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Romans 8:5
Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 6:9
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who submit to or perform homosexual acts,

Colossians 3:5
Put to death, therefore, the components of your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires, and greed, which is idolatry.

Mark 7:21
For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery,

Matthew 15:19
For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, and slander

hope this helps !!!
 
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SovereignGrace

Well-known member
the flesh itself is sin.

sin is not just a system or an action.

the corruption caused by the fall
is cosmological not just a mental state.

if you go and enjoy this world and body,

that is the sin realm being enjoyed.
Sin is a breaking of one or more of God’s laws, so I don’t get what you said when you said sin isn’t an action. Yes, we can sin without doing something, such as lusting in our hearts after someone, but its still breaking God’s law. But you’re still not making sense, ma’am. Your posts are all over the place, your thoughts, too.
 

cadwell

Member
What I find intriguing is that the entire creation has come under a curse as per Romans 8 &c, and people accept this truth, but then say man get's to choose to obey God just like Adam, and if not then they become sinners like him. It is as if the universal consequences of the fall do not apply to them until they exercise almighty free will. Man-centered nonsense right there.
That’s a gross misrepresentation of anything that’s been said that goes counter to your own position. There is no disagreement that Adams fall impacts all mankind, the disagreement is HOW. The most I gather from your (and others) position is that Adam passed down some sort of “sin gene” and thus death to mankind. This mythical change in Adams dna that we all carry is the reason we die, babies die, everyone dies. That idea is an invention you base on scripture you misinterpret.

The Bible says that when God banished Adam from the garden, He directly attributed Adams eternal life, and thus impending death, on his eating from the tree of life. Genesis 3:22 makes known that it was eating from the tree of life that Adam could live forever. There was no magical change to his body inherently that caused death. Death came to all men by Adam because by him, man lost access to the tree of life. By Jesus, man regains that access (rev 22:14). Romans 5:19, through Adam MANY were made sinners. This born/conceived sinner nonsense is unscriptural.
 

civic

Well-known member
That’s a gross misrepresentation of anything that’s been said that goes counter to your own position. There is no disagreement that Adams fall impacts all mankind, the disagreement is HOW. The most I gather from your (and others) position is that Adam passed down some sort of “sin gene” and thus death to mankind. This mythical change in Adams dna that we all carry is the reason we die, babies die, everyone dies. That idea is an invention you base on scripture you misinterpret.

The Bible says that when God banished Adam from the garden, He directly attributed Adams eternal life, and thus impending death, on his eating from the tree of life. Genesis 3:22 makes known that it was eating from the tree of life that Adam could live forever. There was no magical change to his body inherently that caused death. Death came to all men by Adam because by him, man lost access to the tree of life. By Jesus, man regains that access (rev 22:14). Romans 5:19, through Adam MANY were made sinners. This born/conceived sinner nonsense is unscriptural.
Of course it was passed down otherwise one would never get sick, die or sin. Sin effected both mans spiritual and physical condition.

Duh................................................................................................................................................


This happens( sin passed down from the fall) even in the womb which is why we call it birth defects. You see its your human reasoning that prevents you from understanding the TRUTH of original sin. It must be spiritually discerned and you have demonstrated your complete lack in the things of the spirit. Your carnal approach to scripture prevents you from knowing the truth.
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
Of course it was passed down otherwise one would never get sick, die or sin. Sin effected both mans spiritual and physical condition. This happens in the womb which is why we call it birth defects.

Duh................................................................................................................................................
Exactly...
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I (mostly) agree with this (and maybe it’s I who am wrong) but I don’t know that it means we are real participants with Adam, but that when we are conceived we are imputed that guilt and God views us as if we did it ourselves. Maybe this is a distinction without a difference?

So, babies never love God, seeing that are conceived at variance with Him.
Ken Hammrick used to post here about Paternal Traducianism and Biblical Realism, IE Real Participation. Levi paid Tithes while in the Loins of Abraham. It's not my argument, but his; I often argued against him. He said this is real Calvinism, and used ECF's...
 

civic

Well-known member
Ken Hammrick used to post here about Paternal Traducianism and Biblical Realism, IE Real Participation. Levi paid Tithes while in the Loins of Abraham. It's not my argument, but his; I often argued against him. He said this is real Calvinism, and used ECF's...
What happened to Ken ?
 

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
Unless the Holy Spirit regenerates their spirits, none of that will convince them to TRUST CHRIST and LOVE GOD the FATHER...
God saves those who believe by regeneration.
1Cor 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
 

SovereignGrace

Well-known member
Ken Hammrick used to post here about Paternal Traducianism and Biblical Realism, IE Real Participation. Levi paid Tithes while in the Loins of Abraham. It's not my argument, but his; I often argued against him. He said this is real Calvinism, and used ECF's...
I dont know if it’s the same traducianism(meaning I don’t know if they’re differing views in that camp) but I do lean towards that view, but not fully convinced of it.
 

civic

Well-known member
Same here...
Some of Kens writings were really deep and maybe its because I have not studied those topics as in depth as Ken obviously has with those subjects. For me to my shame there was a lack of interest in them not because they have no importance but because my personal priorities have always been on what I consider as does most Christendom to be the essentials of our faith. But I will say Ken was gifted and blessed with a brilliant mind whether or not you agreed with him.
 
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